House Dayne Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 My thought on the matter is that if someone is not around for long periods of time, they can't complain if they are not allowed to reveal or have last words. It may be unavoidable, but the game is what it is. You gave a 13 hour warning, so ... yeah. Don't sweat it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Corbray Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Robertson to Bobby']Are you happy to make insinuating questions with little substance? I've said why I found you suspicious. If you've done something suspicious, and more than one person thinks you're suspicious for it, are you surprised they suspect you for the same reasons? Or does every single person finding someone suspicious have to pick out a different reason why? Which would thus mean that someone would have to have done a fair few seperate suspicious things to get a lynch at all. Oh wait, a not completely original thing! You agreed with someone else! How [i]massively[/i] suspicious.[/quote] Pretty big overreaction. Hard to see what set Robertson off here. Bobby made one small post against him, and he gets very touchy in response. [quote name='Kreese']Karl - he has gathered some suspicions by saying that there's not much going on and that most likely Hall will bite the dust because Espinoza has no other options. I disagree with Karl wholeheartedly, but then I think he was just saying what he was thinking - which isn't a sign of guilt to me. So yeah, Karl should try a bit more to add to the discussion, but I donät suspect him very much right now.[/quote] You think he was just reporting who was most likely to get lynched? That he wasn't supporting the Hall lynch at all? Can't agree with that. Yeah, he kept saying that he felt the case against Hall was 'light', but then he followed that up with stuff like this - [quote name='Karl']I don't think there is much of a case on Hall, but I think it's probably better than the one on anyone else except maybe Espinoza.[/quote] He's saying that he feels the case is the best we have. Supporting the Hall lynch, and at the same time not owning up to it, by claiming that he thinks the case is weak. Its very middle of the road. [quote name='Dutch']I'd like to know why my accusation of Hall is fundamentally different than Hall's accusation of Espinoza and why mine is more suspicious?[/quote] I don't fault you for questioning Hall. Nothing wrong with that. Its the content of your post thats the issue. You attacked Hall for making an argument against the Referee, criticizing it for reasons I've already discussed. I disagreed with you, and as I explained earlier, felt you were being opportunistic by targeting a player who may have already been on the Ref's bad side. [quote name='Kreese']I'd like to know if Mr Miyagi thinks that his case on you also applies to those who are suspecting Karl (=easy target).[/quote] Hall was an easy target, in that he had said things that could have potentially made the Ref dislike him. There was an opportunity for people to push further in that direction for the lynch. Given that the decision is entirely in the Ref's hands, I can see an evil player looking at the situation, deciding that Hall was in a precarious position, and choosing to increase the momentum against him with an attack. Karl is supposedly an 'easy target' in a completely different way. Don't want to be offensive, but I think most of us would describe him as a weak player right now. So the question is, do I object to people attacking a weak player? And the answer is, no, not if he's doing suspicious things. I've seen a lot of weak (and not so weak) players fall into the trap of making middle of the road posts and contradicting themselves when they are FM. Its a common mistake, and one that many players can't avoid. I've personally caught more than a few FM based on posts that were very similar to Karl's. So I can't fault anybody for thinking he is suspicious. More in a minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Corbray Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Dutch']And on another note, my feelings on Karl are meh - I wouldn't object to him being eliminated, but feel we can probably come up with a better candidate.[/quote] [quote name='Dutch']My preference ,for the record, is [b]Karl[/b] (knowing this is not an actual vote, but the best way to keep track of people's stances for later re-reads.)[/quote] 5 hours passed between those posts, but Karl didn't post during that time. So what made you go from 'we can do better' to a vote for Karl? Was it just a failure by the group to do better, or something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Upcliff Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Espinoza' post='1721642' date='Mar 16 2009, 20.30']Do you have something more to add? Please?[/quote] Actually I did. That 'gah!' was out of frustration because I worked on a fairly large post where I stated that I'm not really fond of the Johnny lynch among other things. For some reason though I couldn't post it... I even tried editing it into the 'gah!' post to no avail. Anyway, I rebooted (though I didn't save the post) so hopefully this goes through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Tyrell Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Hall' post='1721670' date='Mar 16 2009, 21.53']Actually I did. That 'gah!' was out of frustration because I worked on a fairly large post where I stated that I'm not really fond of the Johnny lynch among other things. For some reason though I couldn't post it... I even tried editing it into the 'gah!' post to no avail. Anyway, I rebooted (though I didn't save the post) so hopefully this goes through.[/quote] What about Karl? We seem to be nearly evenly split between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Dayne Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Miyagi' post='1721660' date='Mar 16 2009, 20.47']I disagreed with you, and as I explained earlier, felt you were being opportunistic by targeting a player who may have already been on the Ref's bad side.[/quote] Fair enough. To be honest, I had the same thought as Hall but decided not to mention it at that point. I attacked him mainly as a way to start discussion so took a stronger stance than I actually felt at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Tyrell Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Mr Miyagi? You have an opinion on the lynches? It is my bed time and I need to make a choice. I'd like as much imput as possible. As I just said, it seems to be a pretty close split between Johnny and Karl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Corbray Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Have to admit, I really can't see the case against Johnny. Read back through his posts, and don't see anything suspicious about him at this point. [quote name='Espinoza']Problem with JL is he was last here 10 1/2 hours ago. If today is like yesterday (my days are pretty much the same everyday) he may not be here for another 4 1/2 hours. Do we lynch without a chance at a reveal?[/quote] I think you should lynch your top choice, regardless of whether or not they are here. Your job is to find the FM, and you can't compromise that goal for the sake of a potential reveal, IMO. If Johnny is your choice, then don't let his lack of posting stop you from pulling the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Dayne Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Miyagi' post='1721669' date='Mar 16 2009, 20.52']5 hours passed between those posts, but Karl didn't post during that time. So what made you go from 'we can do better' to a vote for Karl? Was it just a failure by the group to do better, or something else?[/quote] I was absent when the discussions were taking place and so I was doing a lot of re-reads. My initial impression was that he was being railroaded for having generally poor answers, which is not scummy in and of itself. The more I read, the more I realized that the initial point - his middle of the road - statement was valid. He didn't just have a bad answer to a random question that snowballed, he made a bad statement compounded by bad reactions and a walk-out. I now feel that it's the strongest case we have. I never really suspected Hall, so I went looking at Vidal. For a long while I would have put Vidal as my vote today, but over the course of the day and re-reading, the scales tipped onto Karl - although I admit, Vidal is still a very, very close second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Corbray Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Espinoza' post='1721692' date='Mar 16 2009, 21.07']Mr Miyagi? You have an opinion on the lynches? It is my bed time and I need to make a choice. I'd like as much imput as possible. As I just said, it seems to be a pretty close split between Johnny and Karl.[/quote] Just posted my thoughts on Johnny. Don't see the case there. If it's between those 2 players, then I'd personally lynch Karl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Stokeworth Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Karl is in my list of wouldn't mind getting rid of, but I'd rather have Johnny or Vidal go first, Robertson after that, and then Karl. I'd call Johnny tier one and Karl tier two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Corbray Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Dutch' post='1721681' date='Mar 16 2009, 21.02']To be honest, I had the same thought as Hall but decided not to mention it at that point. I attacked him mainly as a way to start discussion so took a stronger stance than I actually felt at the time.[/quote] Okay. If thats true, I can't fault you for it. I always favor provocation as a way of gathering information. The question is whether or not its true. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Corbray Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Tommy' post='1721708' date='Mar 16 2009, 21.13']Karl is in my list of wouldn't mind getting rid of, but I'd rather have Johnny or Vidal go first, Robertson after that, and then Karl.[/quote] Curious why you suspect Robertson. Is it because of that post I pointed out earlier, where he overreacted? Or something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Upcliff Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Dutch' post='1721644' date='Mar 16 2009, 20.32']From what I can see people's preferences are like this: 4 Johnny - Ali, Tommy, Kreese, Espinoza 3 Karl - Dutch, Bobby, Miyagi 1 Vidal - Daniel 1 Dutch - Miyagi 1 Bobby - Robertson 1 Hall - Karl Granted, these were not votes, but top suspects as last stated by the players. Miyagi was counted twice, and now he is here to speak for himself, so we'll see how these hold. 3 people I could not find a stated preference for - Hall, Vidal, Johnny I understand Vidal and Johnny because they have not really been involved, but I was surprised to see that Hall really hasn't put forth suspects either. Maybe I missed it.[/quote] Actually, you didn't miss it. I haven't really mentioned suspects since I listed you and Karl earlier in the day. I did try to give a more clear view of my thoughts in the post that never was, but you'll just have to take my word for that. Heck, seeing as none of you will ever see it, all I got to say is that it was brilliant and put everything into perspective for us. I just forgot everything I wrote in it... too bad it's lost to the internets, eh? :P Ok, in actuality I'm still trying to figure out where I stand myself. If the case on Johnny is just based on the couple of posts Ali quoted a little while ago I'm not in favour of voting him out. He didn't really say anything there that makes me suspect him. He doesn't really state with confidence the theory that I'm symping Espinoza, and for some reason I didn't get a sense that his changing of opinion between the two posts was as suspect as Karl's wavering. I'd also prefer to keep Dutch around for the time being. I disagreed with a lot of his earlier stuff -- probably because it focused on me -- but got to admit he's growing on me :P So I guess by default I'm sort of favouring a Karl lynch. He's similar to Johnny in a way only that his wishy-washyness seems more artificial. There are a few people who I've forgotten were even playing until someone brought them up (Bobby and Robertson) and I'm also not getting the best impression of Ali through what little I've heard from her. I do tend to agree that she should have a bit more time to establish herself before being voted off however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Dayne Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Miyagi' post='1721711' date='Mar 16 2009, 21.15']The question is whether or not its true. :P[/quote] That's always the question, isn't it? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Tyrell Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [b]Karl loses the match and is eliminated from the tournament.[/b] Please send PMs in. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Stokeworth Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Miyagi' post='1721715' date='Mar 16 2009, 22.16']Curious why you suspect Robertson. Is it because of that post I pointed out earlier, where he overreacted? Or something else?[/quote] To be honest, I have no idea what you posted earlier. As I said in post 170, he hasn't posted enought for me to get a feel for, and what he [i]has[/i] said I haven't cared much for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Upcliff Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Dutch' post='1721701' date='Mar 16 2009, 21.11']I never really suspected Hall, so I went looking at Vidal. For a long while I would have put Vidal as my vote today, but over the course of the day and re-reading, the scales tipped onto Karl - although I admit, Vidal is still a very, very close second.[/quote] And there you go and make me suspicious of you again :P I could buy that you came at me initially as a way to start getting more info, but you the way you came at me I have trouble believing you 'never really' suspected me. Anyway, Karl's the choice... lets hope our CF yields some positive results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Dayne Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I suppose it's to much to hope that the Referee is up and will give us the CF results? Yeah, I thought so :( As Espinoza said, please send in PMs - provisionals are good. (i.e if Karl was innocent, heal X, if he was guilty, heal Y, etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Dayne Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 [quote name='Hall' post='1721734' date='Mar 16 2009, 21.26']I could buy that you came at me as a way to start getting more info, but you came at me pretty hard and I have trouble believing you 'never really' suspected me.[/quote] You can read it in the spoiler section then :P Of course there was *some* suspicion, (I'm a paranoid mafia addict after all) but really very little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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