Minigame 64.5: a very Supernatural minigame

[Whiskeyjack]

No you're not. I already responded. Keep up.

Looks like you posted your response while I was posting something else, and I missed it. My mistake.

It's not so much the content, but more so the implications. I understand the point of view. I don't find the need to argue it though. To me, it doesn't feel like an argument that an innocent needs to make. If they find someone guilty, they vote. They don't need to tell everyone over and over that it doesn't matter who they are.

Yeah, I saw the posts, but I didn't interpret them the same way that you did. I don't think he was trying to keep all options open - I think he was trying to say that nobody should be off limits, including Piper, who he wanted people to vote for.

[Mina Martell]

Masonity also was very quick to forgive me for what amounts to being a newbie mistake. A killer would want to keep us incompetent newbies around, wouldn't they?

Or they could be attacking you for drawing attention to my incompetent newbie mistake.

I don't buy the case on you, particularly since yours was the only vote on me at the time. If anything, a killer would be very careful with his first vote. It looks like people are just pouncing on an easy target.

At this point, I'm paranoid of everyone, and to be honest, I feel really out of my depth. However, I'm going to go out on a limb and vote for Mexal on gut. I thought his/her arguments have struck me as off the entire time. For example, this one rang false:

It's not so much the content, but more so the implications. I understand the point of view. I don't find the need to argue it though. To me, it doesn't feel like an argument that an innocent needs to make. If they find someone guilty, they vote. They don't need to tell everyone over and over that it doesn't matter who they are.

I would be willing to switch my vote to Piper to get the lynch, unless he says something to sway me. (He never answered my question about how much he knew about the role set-up, but maybe he thought it was too weak a case to bother with :cry:.)

Since demons are evil (it says so explicitly in the first death scene), it makes sense that their opposite--angels--would be good.

The problem with a mass roleclaiming is that although the innocents don't know which roles are innocent, the killers definitely will by default (at least if there's only one faction). So the killers will learn more information from it than the innocents.

...On the other hand, killers can only NK one person at a time. And if every single person was forced to come forward, at least we could figure out from NKs whether any counter-claims were false.

Damn it. Someone better at this than me analyze things.

[Fireball07]

I don't think anyone really thinks that claiming the role names is a good idea. It's not a good idea at all, and definitely puts the game in favour of the FM. Also, I doubt everyone has a role and basically it just wouldn't work.

[Whiskeyjack]

This isn't random abstract argumentation, this is basically arguing about my case on Piper. I thought that was evident.

So your case on Piper is basically that he claimed he was unlynchable on day 1?

While I agree with you that its ridiculous for people to be saying that 1/3 - 1/2 of the group is not a lynch option on day 1, I have to disagree with the suggestion that Piper is suspicious for making the claim that he's unlynchable. I've seen Piper make similar claims in the past, and I don't think its an indication of his alignment either way.

[Whiskeyjack]

Just another thing for everyone to remember:

The day end falls in the middle of the Champions League semi final. I won't be around, I think Mexal and Slick also said they are likely to be watching.

So I'd prefer to not leave things until the last second today.

How many people do we have set to miss the end of the day now? Are we up to 6? Fireball, Malcolm, Masonity, Mexal, Slick, TMW?

If so, then we really need to get our shit together right now.

[The Man Who]

So your case on Piper is basically that he claimed he was unlynchable on day 1?

While I agree with you that its ridiculous for people to be saying that 1/3 - 1/2 of the group is not a lynch option on day 1, I have to disagree with the suggestion that Piper is suspicious for making the claim that he's unlynchable. I've seen Piper make similar claims in the past, and I don't think its an indication of his alignment either way.

It bears thinking about. I don't know why, but it struck me very wrong. But yes, basically that was the basis of my case, with most of the actual talking being arguing about whether Piper was lynchable, and then it got a bit lot sidetracked into whether there was an unlynchable population.

[Piper of Chaos]

I can't shake off the feeling that Ms Martell is a bit nervous - or very careful about what she is saying. That might be caused by her n00biness, but a n00b who is evil has a double reason to be worried. :unsure:

[Fireball07]

It bears thinking about. I don't know why, but it struck me very wrong. But yes, basically that was the basis of my case, with most of the actual talking being arguing about whether Piper was lynchable, and then it got a bit lot sidetracked into whether there was an unlynchable population.

He has said that in a lot of games, seriously and not seriously. It may be an outrageous thing to say but they are the kind of things Piper does. I don't believe that anyone should be unlynchable, but others seem to think there should be.

But really we have spent most of our time talking about whether people should be unlynchable or not instead of abotu the game, which isn't really good as we are a lot closer to day's end than you'd think.

[Piper of Chaos]

I would be willing to switch my vote to Piper to get the lynch, unless he says something to sway me. (He never answered my question about how much he knew about the role set-up, but maybe he thought it was too weak a case to bother with :cry:.)

If I knew something about the setup, I wouldn't say because I could only know something if I was the mod, evil or roled. You should never ask questions like these.

Apropos, I think Luwin stated some stuff about roles:

I've been on the board for a while but I'm new to Mafia. Why is WJ so unassailable early in the game? He's that good? I'm not doubting you, but I'd like a little clarification.

Piper does seem to be casting attention on himself for one reason or another. Either to show us he has a role, or to make enough noise that we're lulled into thinking he couldn't possibly be a baddy.

All right, we have two new players who both make remarks that we like to specify as "role fishing". Surprisingly, nobody mentioned this so far (Luwin's statement has been here for a rather long time). Why is that? Are you folks just lazy? Are there no FM who would like to make a case based on that? Is one of them (ok, I am stretchin here, but hey) protected?

[Mina Martell]

I can't shake off the feeling that Ms Martell is a bit nervous - or very careful about what she is saying. That might be caused by her n00biness, but a n00b who is evil has a double reason to be worried. :unsure:

I won't deny the first sentence. Out of curiosity, would you peg my behaviour as evil if you didn't know this was my first game? (I'm asking because I'd genuinely like to learn if I'm doing something wrong.)

And for the record, please don't go TOO easy on me :).

[Masonity]

I'm leaving to head home in a minute but I want to do this before I go.

This is pretty much his only game related post and I don't like it. I have the same problem here as I stated when discussing TMW (though I still haven't gone back and reread TMW's posts to see if it was all due to stated reasons for voting Piper). Everything in this post feels forced...like he wanted to throw opinions out there but couldn't stick to them. At the end of the day, it's absolutely pointless.

I'll do a reread of TMW when I get home to verify his statement. If it's correct, I'm moving my vote to Fireball.

Back in about an hour or so.

Fireball hasn't said much at all since the rp stage died, has he? Very under the radar.

I can't see your case on TMW. I seriously don't get where you are coming from with it.

I don't see what it is that's making a few others trust Halo. However for two people to say it, there must be either something there, or two of our best players are teamed with him and have been hit with temporary newbitus. No, there's no way they'd slip up and offer such a defence, especially on day 1 with very little pressure on Halo. So, I won't vote Halo today on the strength of Piper and Malc's word.

With a small (and ever shrinking) realistic lynch list for today, I'm lost as to where to look. Added to that, I've jsut received a call saying it's time to go football. Therefore Fireball is the best I can offer.

[Slick Mongoose]

I'll be around on and off but i'll definitely be here for the end of the day.

But really we have spent most of our time talking about whether people should be unlynchable or not instead of abotu the game, which isn't really good as we are a lot closer to day's end than you'd think.

Have you made any posts suggesting any sort of suspicion about anybody?

ETA: Crosspost. :P

[The Man Who]

Apropos, I think Luwin stated some stuff about roles:

All right, we have two new players who both make remarks that we like to specify as "role fishing". Surprisingly, nobody mentioned this so far (Luwin's statement has been here for a rather long time). Why is that? Are you folks just lazy? Are there no FM who would like to make a case based on that? Is one of them (ok, I am stretchin here, but hey) protected?

Luwin's isn't role fishing? He just suggested that you may be attracting attention in order to give the impression you had a role. I saw it but maybe I misinterpreted it, but it doesn't seem like role fishing to me.

[LCOTNW]

Or they could be attacking you for drawing attention to my incompetent newbie mistake.

I don't buy the case on you, particularly since yours was the only vote on me at the time. If anything, a killer would be very careful with his first vote. It looks like people are just pouncing on an easy target.

At this point, I'm paranoid of everyone, and to be honest, I feel really out of my depth.

:cheers: welcome to mafia. That feeling doesn't go away.

However, I'm going to go out on a limb and vote for Mexal on gut. I thought his/her arguments have struck me as off the entire time. For example, this one rang false:

The reason that WJ, Malc and co. are not participating in that part of the conversation is that they are the subject of it. they may disagree with me, from their POV, but they probably aren't going to argue that they are lynchable. Mex probably disagrees because he is that independent-minded sort of fellow who will vote for whomever he wants, but at the same time, he is not going to lynch WJ, Malc, or Piper today. Mex is saying that he thinks players should just make their case and vote, not try to justify their vote by arguing with me over whether the chances of the lynch succeeding are reasonable. The case can be judged on its merits regardless of whether it is likely to succeed based on meta-gaming.

I would be willing to switch my vote to Piper to get the lynch, unless he says something to sway me. (He never answered my question about how much he knew about the role set-up, but maybe he thought it was too weak a case to bother with :cry:.)

I have no problem with you being willing to vote Piper if you have a good reason, but I'm not sure that we need to "get the lynch" every day since we don't have a CF. I so rarely play in a game that doesn't have a CF that I forget the logic. It would seem to me to be better not to lynch since that leaves a bigger pool for the finder to hide in. There is nothing worse than lynching the finder on D1 and having no benefit, not even a CF result. At the same time, we can't learn much unless we have lynch trains (or finder results) to go on.

Since demons are evil (it says so explicitly in the first death scene), it makes sense that their opposite--angels--would be good.

The problem with a mass roleclaiming is that although the innocents don't know which roles are innocent, the killers definitely will by default (at least if there's only one faction). So the killers will learn more information from it than the innocents.

...On the other hand, killers can only NK one person at a time. And if every single person was forced to come forward, at least we could figure out from NKs whether any counter-claims were false.

Damn it. Someone better at this than me analyze things.

Lets just guess and say we reveal and of the 12 players:

Demons = evils (2 + symp)

Ghosts = roled innocents (3)

Angels = roleless innocents (7)

The evils, are, of course, going to pick one of the other categories to reveal because if they revealed as demons, or even as a group of 3, they would be singled out as a potential group of evils just by their numbers. So they will lie and try to hide with the others. The evils know who they are, of course, so no matter where they hide, they would know there are only 3 ghosts in this case, and that they are the likely group of roled players. Then they can target them for NKs. This is the best case scenario.

It gets worse if each roled innocent has their own Supernatural identity. For example, let's say angels are innocents, and witches are finders, Reapers are ninjas, Werewolves are guards, etc. etc. Then when we reveal, the breakdown would make it even more apparent which players are roled. Of course Piper is guaranteed to lie about his PM whether he is innocent or not. ;) Others might lie to hide their role, and the evils will lie, for sure. So revealing really doesn't seem likely to lead anywhere that is good for the innocents.

It is generally better for roled innocents to stay hidden, so they won't be NK'd and can use their roles to help resolve the game. It is especially important for the finder and the healer to stay hidden as they pose the greatest threat to the evils. So keep that in mind if you have that role.

[The Man Who]

I won't deny the first sentence. Out of curiosity, would you peg my behaviour as evil if you didn't know this was my first game? (I'm asking because I'd genuinely like to learn if I'm doing something wrong.)

And for the record, please don't go TOO easy on me :).

I had the opposite reaction to Piper (again). I thought your posts were quite well thought out. Not everyone can fly by the seat of their pants. It's more fun though.

[Whiskeyjack]

Therefore Fireball is the best I can offer.

Why Fireball instead of somebody like Luwin or LCOTNW?

[Fireball07]

Fireball hasn't said much at all since the rp stage died, has he? Very under the radar.

I can't see your case on TMW. I seriously don't get where you are coming from with it.

I don't see what it is that's making a few others trust Halo. However for two people to say it, there must be either something there, or two of our best players are teamed with him and have been hit with temporary newbitus. No, there's no way they'd slip up and offer such a defence, especially on day 1 with very little pressure on Halo. So, I won't vote Halo today on the strength of Piper and Malc's word.

With a small (and ever shrinking) realistic lynch list for today, I'm lost as to where to look. Added to that, I've jsut received a call saying it's time to go football. Therefore Fireball is the best I can offer.

Well, the game did start late at night and it's hard to post in the morning or in the middle of the day. So, I basically missed everything but the RP stage. I don't believe that is enough to warrant lynching me. At the moment, I think the ebst bet for a lynch is Halo. He seemed serious about his post wanting us to post the names of our roles, and I don't think that would be a good move for us. While it seems a bit crazy for the FM to do, maybe they were taking a risk, and I think that he's the best bet for today.

If we've decided not to lynch the two new people, and others refuse to vote WJ, Mex, Piper and Malc, then there is a very small lynch pool to work from even before we get onto suspicions. I wouldn't mind voting for Luwin, but some of his iffy posts could be put down to being new. And at the moment, it doesn't look like anyone would join me in voting him.

[Piper of Chaos]

I won't deny the first sentence. Out of curiosity, would you peg my behaviour as evil if you didn't know this was my first game? (I'm asking because I'd genuinely like to learn if I'm doing something wrong.)

And for the record, please don't go TOO easy on me :).

Did you read the last game? You remember Penrose/LCOTNW? I think your behaviour in this game is similar - non-confrontational, polite etc

Avoiding arguments by stepping back from own cases is always suspicious - see how Luwin got under fire for claiming to make a serious vote, but removing it for being non-serious?

The main problem is that some players always act like this - see LCOTNW, who is something like a bard in our community. Lot of evil players act like this, though, because they pay more attention to what they are saying and the potential backlashes of their posts.

[haLobEnder]

I think I understand your reason, but I am not so sure. Even if what we both think is true, he might be guilty.

Gah! This is killing me, I wanna' know!

(Heh, well there is one thing I can think of... that was rather intentional on my part.)

Yeah, I'm not accusing him of being a symp. It would be a very sympish move, only the facts don't add up, so bleh.

I'd rather vote whoever it is that suddenly makes a huge slip, ready for us to lynch as FM. Unfortunately that doesn't look like happening. I'd rather lynch a likely FM than a likely symp, but I'll choose a symp over "no idea", like I have on most of you. :P

Right now my tiers would be:

Tier 1: Empty

Tier 2: Halo

Tier 3: Everyone else

Tier 4: Empty

Tier 5: Me

But for actually being willing to even try to lynch today, I agree that you, mexal and piper are lynchproof on day 1. Malc isn't usually, but in an altless game should be.

If I were a symp you certainly don't give me much credit. I knew full well what I said would be controversial. It's probably not in a symps best interest to make themselves a day one target unless their FM is at risk. Even then, if a FM makes themselves a target day 1, it might be better for the symp to cut their loss and just focus on defending the other FM (assuming an evil triumvirate of course).

Gah! Here's where my list of suspects was about to go, but then while making my 'case' on a suspect I came to a very different conclusion about them. I won't share it for now.

One thing I will say however is that I find it suspicious WJ hasn't commented one way or another about me yet. I've given people enough rope to hang me with if that is indeed the direction they wish to take today. Perhaps WJ is ignoring me right now because he thinks I may be a symp and he doesn't want to kill a potential ally.

[Mina Martell]

All right, we have two new players who both make remarks that we like to specify as "role fishing". Surprisingly, nobody mentioned this so far (Luwin's statement has been here for a rather long time). Why is that? Are you folks just lazy? Are there no FM who would like to make a case based on that? Is one of them (ok, I am stretchin here, but hey) protected?

Everyone has been speculating on roles so far, and hAlO outright suggested everyone roleclaim. As for targeting individual players, I wouldn't have mentioned anything if I'd thought you'd been a roled innocent. Your joke answers mentioned evil locations like hell, the cemetery, Transylvania. The only knowledge you might have conceivably betrayed with that throwaway joke would be about the evil faction. I recognize that this was an extremely weak case. I mainly wanted to see what people knew about the different factions.

ETA: What is wrong with my syntax and grammar? I not can is speaks English good today.