It doesn't make any sense for Jon to be at the Tower of Joy

[DocBean]

What is the exact quote about "broken promises" and does it clearly indicate he's thinking of Lyanna? There was a bit about having lived with his lies for fifteen years, but those would presumably be lies to Robert (and to a lesser extent Cat, since Ned seems to refuse to answer questions directly about Jon to anyone except Robert).

I don't remember the exact quote. I'm sure someone can quote it from the series.

I believe there is a scene where Ned wakes up from one of his dreams, and says something to the effect of Dreams of Broken Promises.

Now with that said it could be a lot of things.

1. He's been dreaming about how he broke his promise to Lyanna

a. could be a promise to tell Jon who his father was.

b. could be to raise Jon as King

c. maybe Lyanna didn't want Jon raised as a bastard. (for shewoman)

d. could be other promises...

2. He broke his promise to someone else.

a. Robert, Cat, Sansa, Old Nan.....

b. I don't remember if that line happened before, or after he Promised Robert that he would take care of things.

3. He had a nightmare about what would happen had he broken his promise to Lyanna, but in the real world, he kept it.

a. basically saying, "Whew, had a nightmare about breaking that promise... glad I followed thru on that one!"

or could be some other things.

With all that said, it might not be safe, but we could assume it's about Lyanna, since she's the only one he ever thinks about making a promise to.

[DocBean]

Barristan was severely wounded by that time IIRC. I don't know where the other two were.

Update: Jonothor Darry and Lewyn Martell were killed at the Trident.

Why in the world does Rheagar take 6 of the Kingsguard with him?

Aerys gets Jaime Lannister???!!!

Rheagar heir to the throne gets everyone else.

Ellia, her kids, Dany, and Viserys, all get no one.

Rheagar then sends 3 Kingsguard, one of them the best fighter to ever strap on a sword, to Lyanna.

Enter Gregor, Smash, rape, smash.

That is pretty conclusive evidence that Rheagar believed Lyanna was REALLY important.

and his other kids were meaningless.

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

I don't remember the exact quote. I'm sure someone can quote it from the series.

(snip)

With all that said, it might not be safe, but we could assume it's about Lyanna, since she's the only one he ever thinks about making a promise to.

Normally it's the job of the one making the claim to back it up.

[Shewoman]

Doc Bean, do we have any reason at all to think that Lyanna wanted her child, if she had one, to be raised as a Stark bastard?

[Miriel]

Doc Bean, do we have any reason at all to think that Lyanna wanted her child, if she had one, to be raised as a Stark bastard?

Not to speak for DocBean, and not even directly answering the question as to a specific reason on Lyanna's part (which I guess makes me the most annoying poster of the day!), but it does make sense that what Lyanna wanted was for Jon (her child) to be kept safe (from Robert and his hatred from all things Targ as well as from the larger forces of the Robellion such as the Lannisters). So not necessarily to be raised as a Stark bastard, but to be kept safe. Maybe the "being a raised as a Stark bastard" was the only way she (and Ned) could see to do it. The scenes between Ned and Robert where Robert discusses Targs and specifically when he wants to have Dany assassinated always make me think this is what Lyanna and Ned were protecting Jon from.

A major flaw with this though is the way the Targs tend to look. How could they know Jon would not turn out with violet eyes and silver hair? Seems a terrible risk to take even with Ned having a history of some kind of relationship with Ashara Dayne and the cover story of the baby being's Ned's bastard.

[Miriel]

Normally it's the job of the one making the claim to back it up.

Re: the "Broken Promises" line. For what it is worth, I am rereading AGOT right now, so Ned's POV is fairly fresh in my mind. I don't recall him thinking about broken promises at all. He does think about the "promises he'd made to Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them." (This from the Ned POV chapter where he goes to the brothel w/ LF.)

Seems inconsistent with Ned's character to then think about broken promises, when he's clearly gone to a lot of trouble to keep his promises to Lyanna.

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

Re: the "Broken Promises" line. For what it is worth, I am rereading AGOT right now, so Ned's POV is fairly fresh in my mind. I don't recall him thinking about broken promises at all.

Thanks. I did check several places where Ned was woken up by someone or other (it was surprisingly frequent) and couldn't find anything about his broken promises. If the quote only exists in DocBean's imagination, there's not much hope for finding it, either. Thus, the need to back up claims by the person making them, rather than asking the rest of us to accept the conclusions made on dubious or nonexistent evidence.

[Prince of the North]

The problem I have with your variant is that, if we believe Ned's dream, the Kingsguard trio know the outcome of the sack of King's Landing. To be strict about it, they know Aerys is dead and Jaime killed him. I find it hard to believe they don't also know of Elia's, Aegon's, and Rhaenys's deaths. This fact was shown in a very public way when Tywin presents their bodies to Robert. All of which is to say, I find it very likely that by the time of the Tower of Joy events, the Kingsguard trio know that Rhaegar's interpretation of prophecy is false. So, they would not only be violating their oaths, if Jon is not legitimate, they would be doing so for a prophecy they know to be wrong.

This when they are hidden away on the border of the one place in the Seven Kingdoms they can still count as a safe refuge - Dorne. It wouldn't seem to be a difficult task for at least one of the trio to ride to either Sunspear or Starfall - whichever is closer - and take ship to Dragonstone. This especially is true because at this time Robert's forces have no navy to speak of. If Viserys is king, for whatever reason they start out at Lyanna's side, at least one of them should have gone to him.

Hm, very good points and I agree. Maybe I can clarify my theory a bit? You see, I subscribe to the R+L=J theory and I think Jon is legitimate. Thus, I think it can be both reasons for the 3 KG to be at the ToJ: first, they were there to help fulfill Rhaegar's prophecy in producing the third head o' the dragon. Then, when they hear of Rhaegar's death and the murders of his other two children they remain at the ToJ because their king (Jon) is there. Now, we can only speculate on when the KG were actually receiving info from the outside world but I think this could be an explanation for their being at the ToJ and not rushing to Dragonstone, etc. :dunno:

[Miriel]

Thanks. I did check several places where Ned was woken up by someone or other (it was surprisingly frequent) and couldn't find anything about his broken promises. If the quote only exists in DocBean's imagination, there's not much hope for finding it, either. Thus, the need to back up claims by the person making them, rather than asking the rest of us to accept the conclusions made on dubious or nonexistent evidence.

Update Re: The "Broken Promise" quote. From the very last Ned POV (in the dungeon). "When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises."

I can't tell though if these thoughts are connected to Lyanna. He is not thinking of her and in fact the next character he thinks of by name is Cat, so hard to say.

[Lord O' Bones]

Update Re: The "Broken Promise" quote. From the very last Ned POV (in the dungeon). "When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises."

I can't tell though if these thoughts are connected to Lyanna. He is not thinking of her and in fact the next character he thinks of by name is Cat, so hard to say.

Had he written his letter by then? Could the content of that letter be where he broke his promise?

[Miriel]

Had he written his letter by then? Could the content of that letter be where he broke his promise?

It comes in the seventh paragraph of the last Ned POV, quite a bit before the letter conversation between Varys and Ned.

[Miriel]

With all that said, it might not be safe, but we could assume it's about Lyanna, since she's the only one he ever thinks about making a promise to.

This logic does not really hold up though, b/c in the context of thinking about his promises to Lyanna he thinks about the price he paid to keep them. In other words, he kept his promises to Lyanna, to his cost.

So, if he broke a promise to anyone, it was not Lyanna.

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

Thanks again, Miriel. I had read later in that chapter when Varys woke him up, but missed that earlier bit ( I think he spent most of that chapter sleeping, in terms of time passage).

Given that it's not specifically about Lyanna, I think it more likely refers to Robert. Ned made a deathbed promise to Robert earlier:

"Take care of my children for me."

The words twisted in Ned's belly like a knife. For a moment he was at a loss. He could not bring himself to lie. Then he remembered the bastards: little Barra at her mother's breast, Mya in the Vale, Gendry at his forge, and all the others. "I shall...guard your children as if they were my own," he said slowly.

Since Ned went and got himself thrown in the Black Cells he was in no position to keep that promise; and indeed little Barra was murdered by Allar Deem.

There was a more trivial but even more explicit promise shortly before to serve the boar at Robert's funeral feast, though I suppose Cersei kept that promise for Ned. In general, the lie of misreporting "my heir" for "my son Joffrey" clearly troubled Ned, and was breaking the implicit promise to "Write what I tell you" to which Ned responded "At your command, your Grace."

Really, there's probably all sorts of promises Ned was unable to keep. Here's another, to Cat:

"War?" The fear was plain on Cat's face.

"It will not come to that," Ned promised.

[Jon Targaryen]

I also thought the "broken promises" refer to something with Lyanna if only because we saw Ned think of Lyanna pleading for him to promise something to her so often. I associated "promise" with Lyanna and connected the two in that last Ned chapter. It is true that Ned thinks of the promises he made to Lyanna as she lay dying and the price he'd paid to keep them. However, Ned could have kept the promise so far but still have more to do in order to complete the promise. Jon is safe but ... Jon does not know who his mother is, which might have been something else Lyanna made Ned promise. This is why Ned tried to talk to Bran through Bran's dream and is one possibility for why Ned wants to write a letter.

It is definitely true that the broken promises could refer to Robert's children or the war or something else.

[SFDanny]

Why in the world does Rheagar take 6 of the Kingsguard with him?

Aerys gets Jaime Lannister???!!!

Rheagar heir to the throne gets everyone else.

Ellia, her kids, Dany, and Viserys, all get no one.

Rheagar then sends 3 Kingsguard, one of them the best fighter to ever strap on a sword, to Lyanna.

Enter Gregor, Smash, rape, smash.

That is pretty conclusive evidence that Rheagar believed Lyanna was REALLY important.

and his other kids were meaningless.

He leaves Elia and their children in one of the most secure fortresses in Westeros, and in a fortified city with thousands and thousands of troops to guard them. They are hardly left alone with Jaime. The should have been safe, especially since Robert had no navy at the time to speak of. Aerys should have been able to hold out behind the walls of King's Landing for a considerable time, and escape was only a boat ride away. I don't know how one can think he thought his children, Elia, or Aerys were meaningless to him.

What Rhaegar does with the rest of the Kingsguard is to use them as trusted lieutenants, both in battle, and in carrying out orders to hide Lyanna away from anyone who might do her harm. It's a rational use of his resources, though in hindsight, his ghost might have done things differently - especially if he could have anticipated both Tywin's betrayal and his father's mad impulse to let the lions in the gate.

Oh, and the reason it is Jaime who stays behind and not any of the others is clearly because of Aerys's wishes, not Rhaegar's.

[Shewoman]

Miriel--the fact that Ned had some sort of relationship with Ashara Dayne, who as a Dayne may well have shared some of the Targaryen coloring, could have provided an explanation if Ned showed up with a child with the Targaryen look. Wylla, as a retainer of House Dayne, may have that look at well, which might be why Ned allows people like Robert to think she's Jon's mother.

[DocBean]

He leaves Elia and their children in one of the most secure fortresses in Westeros, and in a fortified city with thousands and thousands of troops to guard them. They are hardly left alone with Jaime. The should have been safe, especially since Robert had no navy at the time to speak of. Aerys should have been able to hold out behind the walls of King's Landing for a considerable time, and escape was only a boat ride away. I don't know how one can think he thought his children, Elia, or Aerys were meaningless to him.

What Rhaegar does with the rest of the Kingsguard is to use them as trusted lieutenants, both in battle, and in carrying out orders to hide Lyanna away from anyone who might do her harm. It's a rational use of his resources, though in hindsight, his ghost might have done things differently - especially if he could have anticipated both Tywin's betrayal and his father's mad impulse to let the lions in the gate.

Oh, and the reason it is Jaime who stays behind and not any of the others is clearly because of Aerys's wishes, not Rhaegar's.

I was kidding about the other kids being meaningless. I was just showing how Rheagar miscalculated.

I also think it's a miscalculation on the part of the Kingsguard. If something similar were to happen in the U.S. the Secret Service would send people to watch after everyone that's in line for presidency. I think it's a little odd that the Kingsguard don't work like that. Granted their are only 7 of them, but it still seems like someone should have been with Rheagar's Heir, and the king.

I wonder if Jaime wasn't left with Aerys, but maybe went with Rheagar instead, how things might have turned out.

[DocBean]

Thanks. I did check several places where Ned was woken up by someone or other (it was surprisingly frequent) and couldn't find anything about his broken promises. If the quote only exists in DocBean's imagination, there's not much hope for finding it, either. Thus, the need to back up claims by the person making them, rather than asking the rest of us to accept the conclusions made on dubious or nonexistent evidence.

I could ask that you don't act like such a jackass, but there's probably not much hope for that either. ;) kidding.

Relax, we're all friends here.

I don't have the Ebook, or a book onhand, so it's not a big deal for me to ask someone else to quote the line. (actually it happens all the time)

THANK YOU Miriel for finding it.

I also stated clearly that it might not refer to Lyanna at all, and that I couldn't recall when it was in the book.

I didn't know that the "broken promises" was after Ned's promises to Robert, and didn't claim that it had to be about Lyanna.

For you to say it's in my imagination however, is just plain rude.

Doc Bean, do we have any reason at all to think that Lyanna wanted her child, if she had one, to be raised as a Stark bastard?

...um, no. I don't think so anyway....

I'm happy to add it to the list of promises Ned might have broken, if that's what you're asking.

[DocBean]

Do people use the R+L=J sticky thread?

or sticky threads in general?

I only ask because I don't really use them, but love when new theories pop up in the general chat about stuff that's been discussed.

I've gone in the Jon sticky thread once or twice, posted a theory, and was chewed out for not reading why that theory was already debunked on like page 5.

so I get the feeling that the only people that use it are the diehard fans that have been posting things every day for years.

and if you don't read all 30 pages, then you probably shouldn't use it.

When I saw this post I knew whoever started it would get a few replies from people saying it should be in the sticky thread.

However, it's jumped to like 6 pages long already, while the Sticky thread has been hanging around 25-30 for months.

[Miriel]

Miriel--the fact that Ned had some sort of relationship with Ashara Dayne, who as a Dayne may well have shared some of the Targaryen coloring, could have provided an explanation if Ned showed up with a child with the Targaryen look. Wylla, as a retainer of House Dayne, may have that look at well, which might be why Ned allows people like Robert to think she's Jon's mother.

Yes, I agree that the relationship w/ Ashara could have been a kind of cover .... that was what I was trying to convey in this post:

Seems a terrible risk to take even with Ned having a history of some kind of relationship with Ashara Dayne and the cover story of the baby being's Ned's bastard.

But I guess I did not do a good enough job and should have explicitly made clear I knew about the Dayne's coloring. Oh well :)

I never thought of Wylla resembling a Targ though ... hmmm.

Still, it seems to me a terrible risk to take--surely someone would have thought it through? Overall the riskiness of it it is one of my primary doubts re: R+L=J (which I do basically believe in).

Since I was not explicit enough before I will be extra explicit here--pardon me if I am stating the bleeding obvious! But if the whole goal of Lyanna and Ned was to save Jon from Robert's irrational hatred of all things Targ, then for Ned to show up anywhere with a baby looking even a little Targ-like sees too risky to me. Risky in the sense that someone might have put two and two together and came up with the idea that the baby was not the honorable Ned's at all but Lyanna's.

Perhaps I am just laying too much emphasis on the whole possibility of the baby looking like the Targs though...