You say you want a REVOLUTION

[Ckrisz]

Definitely not just Tehran here.

Isfahan pics. Look at the size of these demos --- this isn't just going to go away.

[turinturambar]

There are just about 2 million Indians in the US. I doubt the number of Persians/Iranians would reach anywhere near that number.

I saw something once that said there were around 1,600,000 Persians in the US. That was a few years ago so I'm guessing that it's nearing 2,000,000, or at least a generous estimate.

On a side note, I have been forced to look at many Farsi words recently. I have some working knowledge of Urdu which is a bastard progeny of Farsi/Hindi and whatnot, so it is interesting to recognize certain words in Farsi. I presume it is similar to speaking one of the romance languages or even English and recognizing some latin words because of that.

It's very similar to French in my experience. I don't know much Farsi as my roommate just taught me how to tell dirty jokes and cheesy one-liners, but I do recognize a lot of the words and I'm semi-literate in French and the two languages seem to be very similar.

[turinturambar]

And here is a video related directly to Iranian/American relations. :)

I saw that. Jon Stewart delivers as always.

[Shryke]

Kerry tells McCain to shut the fuck up.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/18/opinion/18kerry.html

[The Stranger]

My point was that the Thais probably DON'T hate the French despite the French involvement in their affairs 60 years ago.

no, your point was that all experiences of being victimized by a foreign nation are equivalent, or at least comparable.

and by 'Thailand,' do you actually mean Vietnam?

as for french and farsi: farsi adopted some french words when french was the world language, but grammatically it functions in an incredibly different way, being much closer to latin in its systems of conjugation and syntax, with the verb at the end of the sentence and a verbal ending denoting the person of the doer--all of which is, even in latin, a far cry from french. any similarities between the two language beyond that are largely due to a small number of robust proto-indo-european nominal roots and the basic indo-european method of verb tense construction.

[dalThor]

The United States is home to about 414,000 Iranians, with more than half residing in the West, according to the U.S. Census.

Associated Press

[turinturambar]

no, your point was that all experiences of being victimized by a foreign nation are equivalent, or at least comparable.

No, I was simply pointing out that old confrontations are largely forgotten and the intense hatred eventually subsides. If I thought they were all equivalent I wouldn't have mentioned in my post that not all peoples forgive and forget as easily as others. I was just using the examples to show that just because we were involved with them a long time ago doesn't automatically mean they will hold it against us.

and by 'Thailand,' do you actually mean Vietnam?

No, I was talking about the occupation of parts of Thailand up until 1941 and the conflicts of the Franco-Thai War.

as for french and farsi: farsi adopted some french words when french was the world language, but grammatically it functions in an incredibly different way, being much closer to latin in its systems of conjugation and syntax, with the verb at the end of the sentence and a verbal ending denoting the person of the doer--all of which is, even in latin, a far cry from french. any similarities between the two language beyond that are largely due to a small number of robust proto-indo-european nominal roots and the basic indo-european method of verb tense construction.

I just said that it sounded similar to French. Also, I've been told by Farsi speaking people that it is similar to French. I've also heard them say it's similar to Latin as well, so there you go.

[Wouter]

There are reports that the Revolutionary Guards are mobilising 2 divisions, apparently for use in the Tehran area.

Faezeh Rafsanjani, daughter of ex-president and high-ranking cleric Rafsanjani (who really is not a moderate by any means, not the way we would define it at least), has been participating in demonstrations. There is little love lost between Rafsanjani and Ahmadinejad.

Photocopies of a document, allegedly a confidential letter from the interior minister to Khamenei, were handed out by the 1000s in Tehran. In the letter, it says that the "real" results were 19,075,623 for Mousavi, 13,387,104 for Karroubi and only 5,698,417 for Ahmadinejad. Given the very low number for the latter, it may well be a forgery, but the letter appears to be gaining traction among protestors anyway. I guess that the actions of the government have made them so distrusted that people are now quite likely to believe it, as Ahmadinejad only coming 3rd could have inspired the kind of panicked and rushed reaction that the government has showed - in what seems to be an obvious, quick-and-dirty forgery.

[turinturambar]

Associated Press

Those are registered Iranians. I think you'll find those who claim to be Persian(or were born in the states) to be a much higher #. Not all register themselves as Iranian citizens though. Not to mention, many Iranians lose their citizenship when they migrate to the US, losing their voting rights and will not be registered amongst the 400,000+

[Horza]

Based on this history, why did Ahmed go to Russia? And apropos of nothing, there are some allegations that I read on Sullivans blog accusing Ahmed of going to Russia to learn from the masters how to crush dissidents. Along with other allegations that he had given up Iran's rights in the Caspian Sea to the Russians. I'm not sure whether he even has the power to do such a thing without backing from the guardian council/Supreme leader Khameini.

You're right. He doesn't. Sully has done great stuff early on as an aggregator but in the past few days he has cleared the ramp and is now sailing gloriously over the shark.

[Wouter]

No, I was talking about the occupation of parts of Thailand up until 1941 and the conflicts of the Franco-Thai War.

What exactly happened there anyway, and how does it relate to the rise of Japan during the same time? I know the French navy's Indochina squadron shot up the Thai navy pretty badly, but nothing about the context of the fighting.

[The Stranger]

No, I was simply pointing out that old confrontations are largely forgotten and the intense hatred eventually subsides. If I thought they were all equivalent I wouldn't have mentioned in my post that not all peoples forgive and forget as easily as others. I was just using the examples to show that just because we were involved with them a long time ago doesn't automatically mean they will hold it against us.

if you weren't claiming all those situations were comparable, you couldn't draw a general observation from it.

No, I was talking about the occupation of parts of Thailand up until 1941 and the conflicts of the Franco-Thai War.

to be the equivalent of this situation, the U.S. would have had to invade Persia and then secure its independence at the price of separating off Azerbaijan and Luristan as separate American colonies.

I just said that it sounded similar to French. Also, I've been told by Farsi speaking people that it is similar to French. I've also heard them say it's similar to Latin as well, so there you go.

read your own statement. you did not say it was only a matter of acoustics.

[turinturambar]

to be the equivalent of this situation, the U.S. would have had to invade Persia and then secure its independence at the price of separating off Azerbaijan and Luristan as separate American colonies.

which would have been a worse situation altogether, yet the Thai don't hate the French. It all depends on the culture, the people, etc on whether or not they hold resentment for so long.

read your own statement. you did not say it was only a matter of acoustics.

I said some of the words are similar(which they are) and I said the two languages seem similar(based upon listening to my roommate speak). I don't know where you derived that I ever said anything more than that.

[Ocean of Notions]

Kerry tells McCain to shut the fuck up.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/18/opinion/18kerry.html

Someone needs to.

[The Stranger]

which would have been a worse situation altogether, yet the Thai don't hate the French. It all depends on the culture, the people, etc on whether or not they hold resentment for so long.

...

I said some of the words are similar(which they are) and I said the two languages seem similar(based upon listening to my roommate speak). I don't know where you derived that I ever said anything more than that.

you simply did not write in your initial comment on Farsi that you were only commenting on the sound of the language. it. is. not. what. you. wrote. to derive your meaning from it, you've needed to create a redacted copy of the initial observation.

so you are now arguing that situations are totally dependent on the cultures involved. does this mean situations themselves are still comparable, and cultures are the only variable?

[turinturambar]

you simply did not write in your initial comment on Farsi that you were only commenting on the sound of the language. it. is. not. what. you. wrote. to derive your meaning from it, you've needed to create a redacted copy of the initial observation.

What? In my original post I used the word "seems" similar which is basically saying, that the language is similar based upon my experience. As I said in my post, I don't know how to speak farsi, my only experience with it is listening to my roommate speak it. If I don't know farsi and my only experience is from LISTENING to my roommate speak it then the only logical experience upon which I would base the similarity of the language is from LISTENING or in other words, audio. You sir, were reading WAY too much into my post and simply seeing things that weren't there.

so you are now arguing that situations are totally dependent on the cultures involved. does this mean situations themselves are still comparable, and cultures are the only variable?

Yes, culture has a huge influence on reaction of similar experiences. Not totally dependent upon, but it is a huge influence. The situations are comparable in that they involve a foreign force subjecting their will upon native peoples. Culture is not the only variable, but definitely an important variable.

[Bellis]

Based on my (limited, pseudo) understanding of Urdu, I always expect to be able to make out some of Farsi. And I'm always disappointed. To me it sounds like nothing else. Including French (which I know). Though I'm sure upon closer examination it will share Indo-European cognates with all these languages.

[Shryke]

5:58 PM ET -- Fishy. This was just posted on Mousavi's official Twitter account. "Mousavi & Karoubi ask supporters NOT to attend Friday prayers (which is being delivered by supreme leader Ayatollah Khamenei)." This seems quite unlikely to me, trying to get to the bottom of it.

Update: Patrick Disney from the NIAC says this message was also posted on Mousavi's Facebook page and then removed a little later. Seems like someone outside is trying to cause trouble.

- According to Reuters, Iranian prosecutors have warned of the death penalty for the rioters who are involved in violence. Islamic cleric have warned that not going to Friday's prayer service makes you worthy of the death penalty.

Interesting ....

[DJDonegal]

The Ayatollah (of Rock and Rolla) is set to speak publically about this.

[dalThor]

Those are registered Iranians. I think you'll find those who claim to be Persian(or were born in the states) to be a much higher #. Not all register themselves as Iranian citizens though. Not to mention, many Iranians lose their citizenship when they migrate to the US, losing their voting rights and will not be registered amongst the 400,000+

You can come up with a source for the 1 or 2 million that was stated earlier if you'd like.

Back to the news.

In reference to Shryke's post above: There is no protest today. Mousavi and Karoubi have asked supporters not to attend Friday prayers in Tehran. (This, in and of itself, is to be the protest of the day. To not attend Friday prayers is simply...not done from what I can gather. I also saw (unconfirmed) reports saying protesters were afraid all hell would break loose.) The government has bused in tons of people to listen to Khamenei, as mentioned in DJ's link above. I saw one (unconfirmed) report say he will announce the results of the recount today. Personally (not an expert opinion by any means), I think it's too soon. The government needs more time.

All three losing candidates will purportedly lead tomorrow's (Saturday's) protest in Tehran.

The situation in Tehran is said to be 'very dangerous'. Unconfirmed: Reports of 100s being arrested each day, dissent among the IRG commanders, Tehran hospital doctors on 24 hour call and blood/supplies shortages.

In general, the twits twitters seem that Obama's response is 'just fine' as to do more would be seen as interference.

Some reading for today: N.Y. Times op-ed

Unlike the student-led protests of those years, a wide array of Iranians of all ages and classes are in the streets. Shopkeepers and students march side by side. Construction workers perched on scaffolding flash them the “V†for victory sign.

Protest is broader, and accompanied by more visible splits in the ruling elite than ever surfaced before. These divisions have thrust the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, into the fray from his preferred perch.

The balance of forces has changed, which is not to say the outcome will be different. But it could be.

The whole piece is pretty good.

In related news: MOUSAVI HAS ASK THE WORLD TO PARTICIPATE IN SEA OF GREEN IN ALL CAPITAL CITIES THIS SUNDAY - #Iranelection - confirmed

Persiankiwi via twitter.