Jeyne Westerling, escaped?

[gollum]

Why think so? Because everyone's standards for beauty must be identical? Was Lady Smallwood full of shit too?

I thought Lady Smallwood was being polite. You're expected to tell little girls they look pretty regardless of what they really look like. Arya's a very cool character. I for one will be disappointed if she just becomes a Lyanna clone.

[3idcrow]

I thought Lady Smallwood was being polite. You're expected to tell little girls they look pretty regardless of what they really look like. Arya's a very cool character. I for one will be disappointed if she just becomes a Lyanna clone.

Unless I missed the point of this discussion I find it most possible that Arya was an ordinarily looking kid. Some called her "horse face" other people like her father and Lady Smallwood called her pretty, maybe just because they liked her. Nobody ever called her beautiful. She could resemble Lyanna without inheriting her beauty. In fact, I think she reminded Ned of Lyanna because of her high spirit and outstanding personality, commonality in appearance might be secondary in this case.

The point still stands; different people have different perception, in real life and in this series...

[wakiki]

Have anyone yet come up with a plausible explanation for why Lady Sibel would betray Robb and conspire against him, but at the same time play double and betray Tywin as well?

The good hips/narrow hips argument would have been compelling enough if there was actually a complete theory for it to support, but I haven't yet seen one. Sibel playing double-agent makes no sense whatsoever. Keeping Robb's heir "in reserve" seems like an incredibly stupid and dangerous thing to do. We all know how Tywin deals with traitors, and the risk of being caught is overwhelming.

The idea behind the theory is that she was playing Tywin all along, and only pretended to conspire against Robb. If she had known about the Red Wedding, she wouldn't have let Raynald go.

I don't think that Ned's comment about Arya looking like Lyanna is good proof about how POVs see the same character differently. Lyanna probably didn't look very pretty at Arya's age. Arya is getting more beautiful as the series progresses, although she doesn't realize it.

I'm not disagreeing with the point though. ;) I think a better example would be how Arya views Gendry as huge, but when Brienne sees her, she sees him as a boy.

[Guest Other-in-law]

The idea behind the theory is that she was playing Tywin all along, and only pretended to conspire against Robb. If she had known about the Red Wedding, she wouldn't have let Raynald go.

Now there's a pretty short-sighted schemer, no?

Plotter A: I will enlist you to advance my goals by destroying the side you ostensibly bear allegiance to.

Plotter B: Very good, I shall do as you say (to self: Ha ha, all the while I shall really be working against your goals, and in furtherance of my ostensible side, who I actually am loyal to, secretly)

Plotter A: Then takes these following steps.

Plotter B: Done.

Plotter A: Splendid! You have helped me to successfully destroy your side. Now they're all dead. I'll cut you a check this afternoon.

Plotter B: Glad to be of service. (to self: Ah, but the jokes on you because...wait a minute! We just lost the war. That didn't work out the way I wanted it to at all. D'oh!)

[Erik of Hazelfield]

Well put, Other-in-law! That's exactly what I'm trying to say here. At the very least she should have told Robb about the plan if she was on his side. Don't try to tell me she didn't know Tywin was up to something.

[Dreadwolf]

;)

Now there's a pretty short-sighted schemer, no?

Plotter A: I will enlist you to advance my goals by destroying the side you ostensibly bear allegiance to.

Plotter B: Very good, I shall do as you say (to self: Ha ha, all the while I shall really be working against your goals, and in furtherance of my ostensible side, who I actually am loyal to, secretly)

Plotter A: Then takes these following steps.

Plotter B: Done.

Plotter A: Splendid! You have helped me to successfully destroy your side. Now they're all dead. I'll cut you a check this afternoon.

Plotter B: Glad to be of service. (to self: Ah, but the jokes on you because...wait a minute! We just lost the war. That didn't work out the way I wanted it to at all. D'oh!)

I liked it. Below is not appropriate but still funny...

Slightly modified and personalized version:

Cersei: I will enlist you to advance my goals by destroying the side you ostensibly bear allegiance to.

LF: Very good, I shall do as you say (to self: Ha ha, all the while I shall really be working against your goals, and in furtherance of my(OWN) ostensible side, who I actually am loyal to, secretly)

Cersei: Then takes these following steps.

LF: Done.

Cersei: Splendid! You have helped me to successfully destroy ‘your’ side. Now they're all dead. I'll cut you a check this afternoon.

LF: Glad to be of service. (to self: Ah, but the jokes on you because

...wait a minute! We just lost the war. That didn't work out the way I wanted it to at all. D'oh!Noone has ever had any idea what my original plots are)

---

EDIT: could work for another couple in a way as well: Theon/ Bolton's Bastard

[wakiki]

Now there's a pretty short-sighted schemer, no?

Plotter A: I will enlist you to advance my goals by destroying the side you ostensibly bear allegiance to.

Plotter B: Very good, I shall do as you say (to self: Ha ha, all the while I shall really be working against your goals, and in furtherance of my ostensible side, who I actually am loyal to, secretly)

Plotter A: Then takes these following steps.

Plotter B: Done.

Plotter A: Splendid! You have helped me to successfully destroy your side. Now they're all dead. I'll cut you a check this afternoon.

Plotter B: Glad to be of service. (to self: Ah, but the jokes on you because...wait a minute! We just lost the war. That didn't work out the way I wanted it to at all. D'oh!)

The idea behind the "Jeyne is pregnant" theory is that Sybell didn't know about the Red Wedding, though. And that she didn't actually keep Jeyne from getting pregnant.

Just to clarify: I see alot of problems with the theory, too. I'm not saying I believe it, but I was explaining it because some people didn't seem to understand it (based on their comments).

[3idcrow]

The idea behind the "Jeyne is pregnant" theory is that Sybell didn't know about the Red Wedding, though. And that she didn't actually keep Jeyne from getting pregnant.

OK, even if Sybell didn't know about RW (and I believe she did) at the very least she knew that Robb is as good as dead. She negotiated a new marriage for Jeyne based on the assumption of Robbs death:

"Your lord father promised me worthy marriages for Jeyne and her younger sisters. Lords or heirs, he swore to me, not younger sons nor household knights"

Based on her expectations of these new marriages she'd keep Jeyne from geting pregnant for sure. What is the advantage for her to keep Robb's heir at such a great risk to herself and her family when Robb's kingdom is lost? It would be insane.

[burns]

How bout this: she helped plan red wedding but at the time either jeyne didnt know she was pregnant or hadnt broken the news yet. After red wedding jeyne breaks down cries breaks the news of pregnancy mom feels horrible Jeyne goes into hiding. And could the imposter jeyne's refusal to take off crown mean more. I agree that finding another girl inRiverrun that matches her exact description would be difficult but if they used some sort of wig that could make it a lot easier. My theory is the crown is helping to hold on wig in place on the imposter and it explains the scar on the head better which could have came from the shaving of the imposters original head. For the moon tea argument what birth control works 100%of the time

Longtime reader of forums first post. Maybe a little bit of a stretch but it would be nice to see the robb jeyne story continue somehow

[Guest Other-in-Law]

How bout this: she helped plan red wedding but at the time either jeyne didnt know she was pregnant or hadnt broken the news yet. After red wedding jeyne breaks down cries breaks the news of pregnancy mom feels horrible Jeyne goes into hiding.

The thing is, Mom really doesn't seem like a very warm-hearted person. She's a scheming, cold, social climbing bitch. If Jeyne managed to get pregnant despite her, she could easily force an abortifacient on her, and her public antagonism toward her daughter doesn't indicate any sort of remorse.

And could the imposter jeyne's refusal to take off crown mean more. I agree that finding another girl inRiverrun that matches her exact description would be difficult but if they used some sort of wig that could make it a lot easier. My theory is the crown is helping to hold on wig in place on the imposter and it explains the scar on the head better which could have came from the shaving of the imposters original head.

As already pointed out, any imposter needs to fool not only Jaime, but every single other member of the Westermen army, some of whom must know the real Jeyne by sight. And not just fool this multitude for a moment but for the long haul, since Jeyne is going to be staying in Lannister confinement for a few years. It's insanely risky, much more so than keeping RW conspirator mouths zipped for a single day.

Longtime reader of forums first post. Maybe a little bit of a stretch but it would be nice to see the robb jeyne story continue somehow

Welcome to the board! I expect Jeyne isn't finished in the story, any more than Bronn was. Some of the characters take on lives of their own and insist on having their ongoing stories told, however small.

[now my watch begins]

I actually believe there may be something to this change in description with Jeyne Westerling - GGRM is to crafty to ignore all the clues:

1. Maggy the frog was Sybell's grandmother - who KNEW the Lannisters and Cersi especially were going down. It is likely she passed some kind of knowledge of the downfall of the Lannisters, and even the death of the King of the North. She could have known that Jeyne would play an important role and needed to protect her, even if it meant seeming like a turncloak. But how many times have we seen a turncloak turn again?

2. Grey wind didn't seem alarmed at Sybell - I don't think she had anything to do with the red wedding or she would have never sent her son. Women are often PAWNS in this game and it would be awesome if she outsmarted the Lannisters and Freys and double crossed them. She almost had to seem to betray the Starks in order to save her daughter and her own skin and the potential heir.

3. the descriptions of Jeyne are different, in appearance and age, and she has a younger sister that is unaccounted for (swithcharoo).

4. Sybell has bad blood with the Lannisters - she harbors resentment because they turned down matches with her family because of the Spicer bloodline...

I am constantly surprised and amazed by the twists and turns and I can't wait to see how it all turns out!

[Edric Sullen]

Sybell claims to have turned Robb over to the Lannisters. Now this maybe true, but if Jeyne were pregnant with Robb's child (which would be the only real reason why she would have to be switched), wouldn't Sybell fear for her daughter's life. If the Lannisters found out that Robb had sired an heir, they'd simply kill Jeyne to remove any trace of the Stark's bloodline. Now Sybell might be loyal to the Lannisters, but would she really be loyal enough to let them kill her daughter? That is why I think she organised the escape for Jeyne along with the rest of her family.

[the trees have eyes]

I think there is an awful lot being read into one description of hips. I find the similarities in appearance that Jaime and Catelyn describe - pretty but not beautiful, the mop of chestnut curls - stronger than the somewhat contrived "difference" in the hips. I'm fairly relaxed with this being a difference in pov character impressions or a simple oversight on Martin's part. To construct a whole character switch based on this and then invent a reason for it (the pregnancy and the Spicer conspiracy - she's more devious and ambitious that Litlefinger or Varys the way this is being told!) seems a bit of a stretch.

Also, the glossary of A Storm of Swords describes Jeyne as 16 and her sister, Elenya, as 12. It's not a viable switch.

And it seems credible that an overmighty bannnerman would seek to supplant their Lord - Bolton and Stark, Frey and Tully - but the Westerlings are of small account (they bring 50 swords and a dozen knights with them). I think Sybel Spicer is doing what she professes to be doing - seeking advancement and marriage alliances through earning Tywin Lannister's favour by betraying Robb.

Sometimes the simple answer is the right one. Not everything has to be a conspiracy theory.

[Dornish Bannerman]

I love this theory! She could have gone away with the Blackfish. To bad that it is too far into the future that the heir could do anything to claim his father's throne. But them showing up, maybe with Stannis, carrying Robb's heir. He swears allegiance to Stannis, and becomes Warden of the North, Lord of Winterfell, maybe Hand of the King.