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Werthead

A Thread for Small Questions II

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Some thoughts from the current ASoIaF re-read (and I'm slightly dismayed to realise how much I'd forgotten in the last six years):

Was one of the begging brothers Tyrion saw in King's Landing in ACoK decrying the Lannisters the later-High Septon from AFFC?

Does the mention of the trading caravans travelling by land from Asshai to Vaes Dothrak and Khal Drogo's thought of going on a great raiding mission to Asshai (whilst still fearful of ships) confirm that Asshai is on Essos and not a Yet Further Eastern Continent? Actually, combined with GRRM's occasional mention of three continents - Westeros, Essos and Sothoryos - I'm now pretty certain that this is the case, although it's still unclear if the Jade Sea is a massive bay of the Summer Sea (similar to the Black Sea, with Qarth as Constantinople) or a separate body of water opening up into some Pacific analogue at its far end.

Who left the dragonglass cache at the Fist of the First Men? I'd always remembered it that the cache had been there for x thousand years, and was surprised to read that it appeared to have been moved there recently. Possibly Benjen's work?

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Who left the dragonglass cache at the Fist of the First Men? I'd always remembered it that the cache had been there for x thousand years, and was surprised to read that it appeared to have been moved there recently. Possibly Benjen's work?

I think its rather strongly implied, since its found buried under loose earth, wrapped in a still-unrotted black cloak, IIRC.

Jade Sea - I don't recall that we have any evidence one way or another. There are mentions of going on a trader's circuit of the Jade Sea, so I guess its probably quite closed, (and reasonably populated all roung) rather than being like Slavers bay with an end open to ocean. If it opens up again to the 'pacific' (which could be the sunset sea) then the question is whats bracketing its southern end? Sothoryos? Although it could just be an archipelago, like the South China Sea.

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Was one of the begging brothers Tyrion saw in King's Landing in ACoK decrying the Lannisters the later-High Septon from AFFC?

That's an interesting thought but highly unlikely. I recall that the method of choosing a High Septon is relayed in AFFC, along with some of the politics of the Faith, though I don't recall the details. Still, even if the new High Septon is very unorthodox and overzealous, he was still probably chosen from among the higher-ups. Making a begging brother a High Septon would be like making a hermetic monk the Pope. He might do a great job, but there's politics to be considered, and the chances of it happening seem very slim.

Does the mention of the trading caravans travelling by land from Asshai to Vaes Dothrak and Khal Drogo's thought of going on a great raiding mission to Asshai (whilst still fearful of ships) confirm that Asshai is on Essos and not a Yet Further Eastern Continent? Actually, combined with GRRM's occasional mention of three continents - Westeros, Essos and Sothoryos - I'm now pretty certain that this is the case, although it's still unclear if the Jade Sea is a massive bay of the Summer Sea (similar to the Black Sea, with Qarth as Constantinople) or a separate body of water opening up into some Pacific analogue at its far end.

From what we've read, all things seem to indicate that Asshai is on Essos, though we don't know exactly where. If we look at Westeros as a large Britain, Essos as Eurasia, and Sothoryos as Africa, we can assume (though it's purely conjecture) that Ibben would be where Finland is, the Narrow Sea would be the English Channel, though larger, with the Stepstones as islands in it; the Nine Free Cities would cover central Europe, i.e. France and Germany, Valyria would correspond with southern Italy/Greece, Ghis with Persia, Slaver's Bay with the Near East and India, the Dothraki sea would be the Steppes (as the Dothraki themselves are something of an amalgam of the Huns, Mongols and Alans). Of course, the continent of Essos is nothing like Eurasia geologically, at least not in an obviously parallel way; we have to figure in the Red Waste (which is a great desert east of the Dothraki sea) and the Shadowlands, where Asshai resides, which probably lie to the east of Slaver's Bay. We can generalize that Yi Ti would figure as a sort of China and is probably further east than Asshai. As far as places that are only briefly mentioned, like Kayakayanaya, we can only imagine where they might be in relation to everything else.

Who left the dragonglass cache at the Fist of the First Men? I'd always remembered it that the cache had been there for x thousand years, and was surprised to read that it appeared to have been moved there recently. Possibly Benjen's work?

There's little clues that Ben Stark left the cache, as it had been buried fairly recently and was wrapped in a Night's Watch cloak, but we don't know for sure; just as Coldhands could potentially be Ben Stark as a wight, who has somehow retained his memories despite being undead. Martin will clear all of this up for us in the coming books, so theorizing is all we can do at the moment.

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MountainThatRides,

Still, even if the new High Septon is very unorthodox and overzealous, he was still probably chosen from among the higher-ups.

Nope. The new High Septon is the small, spare man in threadbare septon's robes that Brienne meets in her first chapter. He was leading the group of sparrows and the remains of the war-dead to King's Landing. The size of the religiously-motivated mob grew and grew, and they frightened the Most Devout into selecting the septon as High Septon. The similarity of appearance is clear enough, and the fact that one of the High Septon's followers later on quotes him almost word for word in his description of the bones of the dead shows he's the same person.

However, he is a septon, not a begging brother (who are more like monks), so he can't have been one of the guys preaching in King's Landing.

I'm of the opinion that Benjen left the cache (and the horn which some suspect is the true Horn of Winter).

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Question: is this thread something that could be stickied? We were using the other Questions thread for this purpose for a little while and it is such a big pain to have to search for it every time it slides down, plus not everyone saw it.

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Nope. The new High Septon is the small, spare man in threadbare septon's robes that Brienne meets in her first chapter. He was leading the group of sparrows and the remains of the war-dead to King's Landing. The size of the religiously-motivated mob grew and grew, and they frightened the Most Devout into selecting the septon as High Septon. The similarity of appearance is clear enough, and the fact that one of the High Septon's followers later on quotes him almost word for word in his description of the bones of the dead shows he's the same person.

However, he is a septon, not a begging brother (who are more like monks), so he can't have been one of the guys preaching in King's Landing.

Thanks for clearing that up. Either I knew and forgot or never put two and two together. I have a habit of overlooking small details, such as innocuous third-party characters introduced and then forgotten, that have a habit of showing up later on (like Anguy, for instance, or the new High Septon).

This indicates that the Faith of the Seven is probably an easier nut to crack than, say, the medieval Catholic church. Then again, if the Most Devout (who I see as more or less a council of cardinals) had access to the Faith Militant in the first place, they never would have been intimidated in such a way. Also, now we know that there is no requirement written in church law for the High Septon other than that he be an ordained Septon.

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Heh. Little questions.

Bastard names--what happens when they marry and have kids? For the sake of argument, let's say Jon Snow marries Jeyne Poole (seems like such a match could have occurred had things turned out differently). Does she become Jeyne Snow, to be assumed by people who don't her family to be a bastard? What about their kids? Are they Snows despite being trueborn? Suppose he marries the trueborn daughter of a minor lordling--then what? I don't recall seeing any non-bastard characters with bastard names, which seems like the logical outgrowth of this naming system.

What was up with Tyrion's never-to-be-replicated gymnastics in the first book?

Oh, and today I noticed (in Joffrey's wedding chapter) that Sansa comments that Oberyn and Ellaria had had two children together. The index pretty clearly says they have four. Probably a simple oversight, but it would be pretty funny if it meant something...

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Bastard names--what happens when they marry and have kids? For the sake of argument, let's say Jon Snow marries Jeyne Poole (seems like such a match could have occurred had things turned out differently). Does she become Jeyne Snow, to be assumed by people who don't her family to be a bastard? What about their kids? Are they Snows despite being trueborn? Suppose he marries the trueborn daughter of a minor lordling--then what? I don't recall seeing any non-bastard characters with bastard names, which seems like the logical outgrowth of this naming system.

We've the story of Longwaters in A Feast for Crows. A bastard son of Oakenfist marries, has a child, that child becomes a knight and calls themselves Longwaters after that to denote the fact that they are trueborn. GRRM once suggested via correspondence that in some cases, trueborn children of a bastard and a trueborn woman would end up taking their mother's name, but that doesn't seem to be the case in any examples we have. Another might be Bastard Walder Rivers's children, who are trueborn via his wife but retain the name Rivers.

My guess is that a trueborn child of a bastard may keep their father's name under most circumstances, but if they have their own children they may feel free to give them a new last name befitting their doubly-trueborn status.

What was up with Tyrion's never-to-be-replicated gymnastics in the first book?

Never circumstances for it since. GRRM has promised it's a subject that will be revisited. I expect the answer will be in A Dance with Dragons.

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Never circumstances for it since. GRRM has promised it's a subject that will be revisited. I expect the answer will be in A Dance with Dragons.

Tyrion spent most of SoS just trying to get back to health from the Blackwater too. He really wouldn't have been doing any tumbling.

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Tyrion spent most of SoS just trying to get back to health from the Blackwater too. He really wouldn't have been doing any tumbling.

But he did spend all of ACOK and most of AGOT in perfect health waddling from his stunted legs. ;)

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A small question on timeline with Sandor and Gregor. About how old were the two of them when Gregor offed Papa Clegane and the sister? And the wives?

We were just having a little confusion in another thread on timeline since we were trying to establish if it came before or after the Sack of Kings Landing.

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Alexia,

But he did spend all of ACOK and most of AGOT in perfect health waddling from his stunted legs.

Err, do you mean Tyrion ought to have been walking on his hands everywhere he went because of his stunted legs? Are you serious?

Obviously, that makes no sense to me. Even if Tyrion could feasibly walk on his hands wherever he went to spare himself the pain of cramping legs, he wouldn't because he'd look even more ridiculous than he normally does, and while he's fine with being the clown, he doesn't want to come off like some weird animal that can't even walk on its two feet.

Like I said, GRRM hasn't forgotten it, and I've reason to believe it'll be revisited in A Dance with Dragons. ;)

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Alexia,

Err, do you mean Tyrion ought to have been walking on his hands everywhere he went because of his stunted legs? Are you serious?

Obviously, that makes no sense to me. Even if Tyrion could feasibly walk on his hands wherever he went to spare himself the pain of cramping legs, he wouldn't because he'd look even more ridiculous than he normally does, and while he's fine with being the clown, he doesn't want to come off like some weird animal that can't even walk on its two feet.

Like I said, GRRM hasn't forgotten it, and I've reason to believe it'll be revisited in A Dance with Dragons. ;)

Ran, I must have phrased myself badly somehow because I don't see how I implied this. When he was in the peak of health, the book always described him as "waddling" instead of "walking" and attributed it to his stunted legs. I didn't say anything about walking on his hands - of course he wouldn't do that and I certainly didn't mean to imply that he would. :huh:

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Sorry, it's just the juxtaposition of what you quoted. Someone says he wouldn't be tumbling because he was injured after ACoK, and you respond that before that he was fine, which sort of implies you expected to see him tumbling then. :)

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Small Question regarding Ser Kevan.

Why doesn't he hold any lands? I remember Cersei saying that he was only a household knight for Lord Tywin. But earlier in AGoT Ned tells Bran that he would someday hold a holdfast for Robb. Does that not apply everywhere in Westeros? Or is it at the Lord's discretion?

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Sorry, it's just the juxtaposition of what you quoted. Someone says he wouldn't be tumbling because he was injured after ACoK, and you respond that before that he was fine, which sort of implies you expected to see him tumbling then. :)

Okay, now I see what you meant; I was scratching my head for a second. :lol: No, I just meant that he "could" have done it at some other point b/c he wasn't injured then and that I thought the waddling was inconsistent with the tumbling. I'm looking forward to seeing how GRRM reincorporates that back in - and I want to know how he learned his tumbling! :)

Reposting my question on Sandor/Gregor and timeline so it doesn't get lost in the fuss... ;)

A small question on timeline with Sandor and Gregor. About how old were the two of them when Gregor offed Papa Clegane and the sister? And the wives?

We were just having a little confusion in another thread on timeline since we were trying to establish if it came before or after the Sack of Kings Landing.

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The lord's discretion. His father didn't find him a seat to hold, nor did his brother. They gave him plenty of gold instead, so though he's landless (or at least, he has no formal seat -- I suppose he may have invested some of that wealth into land; maybe he bought up some of the lands that the Westerlings had been selling off over the years, for example) he's pretty well set-up.

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The lord's discretion. His father didn't find him a seat to hold, nor did his brother. They gave him plenty of gold instead, so though he's landless (or at least, he has no formal seat -- I suppose he may have invested some of that wealth into land; maybe he bought up some of the lands that the Westerlings had been selling off over the years, for example) he's pretty well set-up.

Thanks, however I wonder why Tywin did not give him Tarbeck Hall or Castamere.

Another question that I will slide in.

Does Cersei intends for Balon Swann to bring back Myrcella from Dorne?

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My question is more along the lines of speculative theorizing rather than a proper question that one of you could answer, but I figured it wasn't interesting enough to make a new thread for, so I'm tossing it in here.

What are the possible options for Daenerys's Unsullied following the reconquest of her throne? If she should prove successful, and any number of the Unsullied come through the fighting alive (against Daenerys's rivals or the Others), she can't just sell them, nor do I think she would. She's a pretty fierce opponent of slavery. Moreover, eunuchs seldom make popular fellows in the Seven Kingdoms -- the whole aspect of virility being a virtue of a man, knight, lord, etc., the ability to father sons. It's one of the reasons why Varys is reviled despite his obvious uses. I assume if the number of surviving Unsullied is low enough, she could keep them on as guardsmen, but it makes more sense to send them to the Wall or use them to bolster the ranks of the Faith Militant following some mass conversion.

However, entering service -- whether in the Faith or especially the Night's Watch -- would in some cases require vows of chastity. That's not a significant sacrifice for a eunuch to make, and renders the oath rather hollow. Moreover, if the Others are defeated, the Night's Watch and the Wall itself sort of loses their purpose.

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