Rape in fiction

[MinDonner]

Erikson, very rare indeed as I recall

Erikson, for all his many qualities, does a pretty poor job with this.

Stonny Menackis, in the siege of Capustan - rape as Motivation for Heroic Revenge Actions By Her (sort-of) Boyfriend!

Also, that academic that Tehol ended up marrying, who spends an entire book being raped and tortured for no particular reason, and then gets her memory wiped so she can make jolly jokes about servants with large penises in the next book. REALLY uncomfortable.

[Eurytus]

Erikson, for all his many qualities, does a pretty poor job with this.

Stonny Menackis, in the siege of Capustan - rape as Motivation for Heroic Revenge Actions By Her (sort-of) Boyfriend!

Also, that academic that Tehol ended up marrying, who spends an entire book being raped and tortured for no particular reason, and then gets her memory wiped so she can make jolly jokes about servants with large penises in the next book. REALLY uncomfortable.

Yeah, its odd. The first one you mention I can't even recall. Despite a lot of that book being great I was skipping whole sections thanks to the Mhybe so maybe I missed it.

The latter one you mentioned was the first time I really came across it in Erikson and it seemed really out of place. Like the example from the first Gap book, pretty icky.

[Imagica]

The worst example i've ever read is in A Cavern of Black Ice

I very much disagree, it was a major plot point.

And, well, implied cases shouldn't really count - usually, it's pretty clear author doesn't feel comfortable enough to extrapolate on the issue and is far from glossing over the fact. Or maybe just doesn't want to accidentally offend a reader such as myself (and I'm grateful for this, I am!)

[Shryke]

Erikson, for all his many qualities, does a pretty poor job with this.

Stonny Menackis, in the siege of Capustan - rape as Motivation for Heroic Revenge Actions By Her (sort-of) Boyfriend!

Also, that academic that Tehol ended up marrying, who spends an entire book being raped and tortured for no particular reason, and then gets her memory wiped so she can make jolly jokes about servants with large penises in the next book. REALLY uncomfortable.

I don't see what was wrong with the Stonny Menackis thing at all. It made sense and worked well.

[ambyr]

I have not read Sandman.

Some of these are real reaches. Elrond's wife? Its not even close to being implied that she was.

And from the other post, Grima's threats to Eowyn, again, a bit of a reach.

When we reach the point where rape is "mentioned" or "implied" and even when doing that we are struggling to come up with examples then it really does refute the point that its widely used in fantasy.

:puzzled: No, actually, I think that proves the point, or at least the point I'm trying to make. Rape is used so often in fiction that people forget that it's there, and its uses are so trivial that it could generally be left out without causing the slightest bit of change to the plot.

As I've said, I think there are places for rape in fiction, and also places where it's used unnecessarily. I think throw-away mentions are a clear example of the later category.

[Eurytus]

:puzzled: No, actually, I think that proves the point, or at least the point I'm trying to make. Rape is used so often in fiction that people forget that it's there, and its uses are so trivial that it could generally be left out without causing the slightest bit of change to the plot.

But its not used so often. You've had to scrabble for instances where its implied, and very, very weakly at that (there is no evidence that Elrond's wife was raped). If it was so common you, and everyone else, would have tons of examples to note here. And no-one does.

[Shryke]

:puzzled: No, actually, I think that proves the point, or at least the point I'm trying to make. Rape is used so often in fiction that people forget that it's there, and its uses are so trivial that it could generally be left out without causing the slightest bit of change to the plot.

As I've said, I think there are places for rape in fiction, and also places where it's used unnecessarily. I think throw-away mentions are a clear example of the later category.

Why should it be left out though?

[Alexia]

I'm going to recall the Valdemar novels by Mercedes Lackey. Lots of rape there (I used to like her a lot when I was in my teens).

Talia - kidnapped, tortured, and raped by Ancar's forces

Elspeth was threatened with rape a few times as I recall and witnessed a few cases of such

The gay Herald was raped on camera

[ambyr]

But its not used so often. You've had to scrabble for instances where its implied, and very, very weakly at that (there is no evidence that Elrond's wife was raped). If it was so common you, and everyone else, would have tons of examples to note here. And no-one does.

Huh? You're arguing against a straw man. No one has ever said rape-or-threat-of-rape is used on every page of books; just that it makes some appearance in a significant percentage of books.

[Galactus]

Eriksson:

Felisin?

[ambyr]

Why should it be left out though?

Well, one, because I like my books tightly written. If an incident is mentioned, I'd like it to have a significant effect on the plot or characterization or world building. If it doesn't, if it's so trivial as to be forgotten as soon as the page is turned, why is it in there padding up the page count?

For another, it is going to be upsetting to a decent percentage of survivors. One in three, one in four, you've heard it before. If an author -must- use nonessential filler to hit the word count required by the publisher, why not do it with something that will turn off fewer readers, like a line about how shiny someone's platemail is?

[Arthmail]

I'm really of two minds on this matter. On the one hand, i think that there needs to be some significant attention paid to how truly awful living conditions were in pre-modern times. Considering that instances of rape in modern times is still all too common, and this in a society were women have more recourse for justice than at any other time, it only stands to reason that something of that brutality should be shown. We are not that far off, easily less than twenty years, when the sexual history of a rape victim was examined in order to see if a rape had indeed occurred, as if by establishing that a women was of loose moral character (ie:not a fucking prude, and did as she pleased), the court could determine wether or not she asked for it. A girlfriend of mine in high school was not raped, but near enough, and part of the defence was a careful examination of her sexual life. He ended up getting off, and that was...the year i graduated i think, so about 1997. You see instances aside from the British army in modern times as well, look at that female defence contractor employee in Iraq that was gang raped but refused justice because she had signed a non-disclosure agreement. A fucking piece of paper trumps her rights! (Though, of course, everything being done by contractors in Iraq has been a cluster fuck of greed and incompetence since the beginning.) So there is some merit to examining this. A lot of fantasy involves a noticable distance from certain aspects of everyday life in these times, and it gives the false impression that those times were like ours, only with swords and knights.

On the other hand, the notion that by excluding rape we may as well exclude all violent and oppressive acts is a false equivalence. There are some things that you don't HAVE to see to know that they are there, and that they are going on all of the time. I don't really want to see instances of child abuse and child rape in my books, but in some socities and time periods they were as common as rape itself. I objectively know that it was done, but subjectively, i don't want to fucking see it.

I guess in the end, if its handled well, there is a place for it. And it can be a means of character motivation, again, if done properly. But if an author hasn't actually talked to someone that has been raped, and if he/she can't properly put the experience into words, it shouldn't be included for the sake of doing so.

[Eurytus]

Huh? You're arguing against a straw man. No one has ever said rape-or-threat-of-rape is used on every page of books; just that it makes some appearance in a significant percentage of books.

Which I disagree with. The word used was "overuse" and I don't think it is overused.

[Shryke]

Well, one, because I like my books tightly written. If an incident is mentioned, I'd like it to have a significant effect on the plot or characterization or world building. If it doesn't, if it's so trivial as to be forgotten as soon as the page is turned, why is it in there padding up the page count?

For another, it is going to be upsetting to a decent percentage of survivors. One in three, one in four, you've heard it before. If an author -must- use nonessential filler to hit the word count required by the publisher, why not do it with something that will turn off fewer readers, like a line about how shiny someone's platemail is?

It's often not nonessential filler though. It's simply the setting. Rape is not exactly uncommon in pre-modern societies. (and, frankly, not all that uncommon in any society period one could easily argue)

Your whole point stems from this idea that rape should never be talked about or referenced unless ABSOLUTELY necessary.

[MattL86]

Well, one, because I like my books tightly written. If an incident is mentioned, I'd like it to have a significant effect on the plot or characterization or world building. If it doesn't, if it's so trivial as to be forgotten as soon as the page is turned, why is it in there padding up the page count?

For another, it is going to be upsetting to a decent percentage of survivors. One in three, one in four, you've heard it before. If an author -must- use nonessential filler to hit the word count required by the publisher, why not do it with something that will turn off fewer readers, like a line about how shiny someone's platemail is?

I don't think anyone here has argued for unneeded rape scenes. Obviously throwing a rape chapter into a book to increase word count would be retarded. The question is whether it has a place in books if it helps the story, and I say yes.

[Bellis]

On the other hand, the notion that by excluding rape we may as well exclude all violent and oppressive acts is a false equivalence. There are some things that you don't HAVE to see to know that they are there, and that they are going on all of the time. I don't really want to see instances of child abuse and child rape in my books, but in some socities and time periods they were as common as rape itself. I objectively know that it was done, but subjectively, i don't want to fucking see it.

This is a different issue. I don't like to see graphic violence, especially graphic sexual violence. Sometimes that seems to be the minority opinion on these boards. But whether it's off-page or on-page, I concede that these are realistic things that go on, and can legitimately be included, if they are done sensitively. But yeah, we don't necessarily need to know the exact details, unless those details are plot/character important.

I guess in the end, if its handled well, there is a place for it. And it can be a means of character motivation, again, if done properly. But if an author hasn't actually talked to someone that has been raped, and if he/she can't properly put the experience into words, it shouldn't be included for the sake of doing so.

Always good when it's clear that an author has done their research, and obvious (and fucking offensive in this case) when they haven't.

[Alexia]

One thing I particularly object to when seeing rape in fiction is the fan response/interpretation. Usually fantasy is in a medieval setting and quite frequently in cases of marital rape or rape by enemy forces (think the women that Arya saw being taken off into the bushes by Gregor's men) the response seems to be: Well, that's how it was back then so its not really rape.

Really? What makes it not be rape (forced sex)? My interpretation is pretty different, that's how it was back then so feel fucking grateful for the laws and social norms that protect me from being treated that way (in my neck of the woods) and the fact that I don't live in that society. And what makes rape rape anyway? The existence of a law? What was the purpose of passing laws against rape then, if the absence of one makes it okay?

There used to be a law saying that the local lord had the right to have sex with peasant girls on their wedding night. Was that not rape?

[El-ahrairah]

Tolkien uses the actual word "rape" at least twice:

In the Silmarillion a certain Elf in in "anguish for the rape of the Silmarils". This is obviously a slightly different meaning - like in The Silver Chair when Jill "makes love" to the Gentle Giants.

The other place is in LOTR when the Dark Lord's troops are "mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor". As this book mentions, here it might be more literal.

[Shryke]

One thing I particularly object to when seeing rape in fiction is the fan response/interpretation. Usually fantasy is in a medieval setting and quite frequently in cases of marital rape or rape by enemy forces (think the women that Arya saw being taken off into the bushes by Gregor's men) the response seems to be: Well, that's how it was back then so its not really rape.

Maybe you talk to different people then me, but usually the reaction is "Well, that's how it was back then" without the second part of your sentence.

It's a statement of "fact" (rape was common), not a statement of morality (rape was ok back then because it was common).

[Ran]

Hrm, yeah, that particular example isn't any good. That girl was clearly serially raped by Gregor's men. Yes, that's exactly the sort of abuse a woman under those circumstances could expect, but it doesn't make it "not rape".