Rape in fiction

[Eurytus]

I'm sick of rape being used as an obstacle that the male protaganist has to overcome in order to gain the love of his sweetheart. I don't care what you say, Wastrel, it's overdone and its cheap.

I'm with Wastrel on this. Given how common it would have been during the comparable portion of Earth's history with which most fantasy meshes, it is astoundingly rare in Fantasy fiction. In the fantasy books I have read it comes up very rarely indeed (I have not read Goodkind or Bakker). Martin is probably the only one who features it to any degree and even there its usually well off camera.

[ambyr]

Seriously, what are you guys reading where rape is "astonishingly rare"? Not the fantasy and YA I'm reading, that's for sure

[Myshkin]

Rape sadly is a not uncommon in life, and so should be represented in literature. What I have a problem with, as others have already expressed, is gratuitous rape scenes that serve no purpose, or even worse, rape-as-character-development.

Hobb and Donaldson have been mentioned so I'll put my thoughts on those scenes down:

Hobb: I may have missed it because the second half of any Hobb novel is so full of filler that I'm generally skimming by that point, but I don't recall Althea's rape serving any purpose in the story. Also Hobb seemed confused about what she wanted to do with Kennit, as in the end he comes off as this tragic figure, and I guess we're just supposed to forget about his tendency to rape people.

Donaldson: This scene actually served a purpose in the novel, and as Min pointed out it had real consequences for those involved. And yes Covenant also comes off as a tragic figure in the end, but in a much different way than Kennit, and we are never allowed to forget about the rape.

One more I just remembered: In Across the Nightingale floor the female lead is almost almost-raped (IIRC a random dude tried to touch her) and this is used as the main vehicle for her character development. Fail.

[Eurytus]

Seriously, what are you guys reading where rape is "astonishingly rare"? Not the fantasy and YA I'm reading, that's for sure

Tolkien, none that I can recall

Pratchett, none that I can recall

Gaimen, none that I can recall

Kay, none that I can recall

Holdstock, none that I can recall

Clarke, none that I can recall

Erikson, very rare indeed as I recall

Martin, usually off screen other than the Cersei, Dani examples mentioned above

Zelazny, none that I can recall

Vance, not in the ones I have read

Wolfe, as above

[Wastrel]

Luga: Oh, we poor stupid men... we just need a woman to speak LOUDER and MORE SLOWLY to us and then we'll understand. No need for any of that "reason", "evidence", or "respectful discussion", stuff, when you can just tell us what's true and what's false in the world with a simplificatory "I don't care what anybody says to the contrary".

[Also no reason for women to have any variety in their responses to rape - no, I forgot that all women had to just hate sex for the rest of their lives and never recover. The idea that a loving, trusting consensual relationship with a man might actually help psychologically is of course bizarre.]

Imagica: three objections to your comments:

1. Nobody here has put forward the "it happens in real life so it must happen in fiction" argument. I've put forward the "it happens more in real life than in fiction, so don't be surprised or offended when it happens in fiction, and don't be so contemptuous of those who ask why it doesn't happen in cases where reason and reality say that it would" argument, which is very different indeed. In fact I explicitly said that the "it happens in real life so it must happen in fiction" argument was false, so I don't know why you're repeating that.

2. "there are a lot of things that happen in real life, and even more that don't, that appear in fiction" is in no way an argument for why some facets of reality SHOULDN'T be reflected in fiction.

3. The fact that it's possible to have a "believable" story without rape is no reason why we SHOULD have stories without rape. Why must fantasy be a happy-dappy land of smiles and songs and multi-coloured bunnies who ejaculate rainbows? And how on earth can in make sense to have "dark" fantasy that specifically, intentionally, avoids rape - if it avoids rape, it may as well avoid murder, torture, poverty, hell, conflict and mishap of all kinds. Of course some stories may not happen to have rape as a central issue, but why should authors have to tell those stories again and again?

Reality does not demand rape in fiction - but the reality puts the onus on those who want rape to be censored away. Given the amount of rape in real life, there has to be some positive reason to NOT have rape in fiction, and I can't think what that could be.

That said, if you really want reasons why there SHOULD be rape in fantasy, how about:

- there is no reason to expect authors to have to either dramatically constrain their stories or else considerably weaken their worldbuilding, which is what a rape-ban amounts to. If you have a character who is a single woman wandering throughout a chaotic land with little rule of law and no protection, dealing with brutal and powerful men, then YES, you do need to provide some reason why she ISN'T raped (or at least seriously threatened by rape). Now, in particular cases authors can certainly come up with reasons, but there's no reason to expect them to all the time.

- having rape only happen to minor characters is MORE objectionable. It makes it seem as though it has fewer consequences, and we don't see the fear and suffering as closely, which threatens to desensitise us, or even glamourise it. Fear, suffering and consequences are sort of the point of rape, and pushing rape out into our peripheral vision where everything is greyer and less personal is doing a disservice to the severity of the crime.

- rape is important. Hence, we should talk about it. It is particularly important in fantasy settings, where we often are presented with tyranny and war - both of these are fundamental assaults on liberty, and rape is pretty much the prototypical "assault on liberty", after murder. It is distasteful in the extreme to have such settings presented with all their noble and favourable aspects, and the dark and unpleasant consequences swept aside for fear they may upset the reader.

- rape is particularly important to women. I assume that this is why authors like Hobb and Gentle include rape in their works - it is something they are frightened of, and probably confused about*, and it is entirely understandable that they choose to address these issues in fiction. That's what fiction is for - addressing issues. If you want to close your eyes and pretend it doesn't happen, that's up to you, but you don't get to protest when other men and women choose not to put their head in the sand.

I don't object to the fact that you choose not to read books with rape in (although I find the decision strange, and in my view unwise, but hey, none of my business), but I do object to the superior tone of bafflement and/or complaint at the fact that others don't share your attitudes.

As for Prince of Nothing being disgusting: good! That's that best compliment I've heard it given! Yes, rape scenes SHOULD** be disgusting, disturbing, challenging and painful to read - that's because rape IS disgusting, disturbing, challenging and painful to read, and that shouldn't be glossed over. But being challenging, and provoking strong emotions, are not flaws in a book. Quite the contrary.

*Obviously, the 'core' issue isn't very confusing: rape is bad. (Although even here I'm sure some women do have confused attitudes toward this that they would like to address - it's not just men who have rape fantasies, and it can just as much be "wank material" to girls as to boys, although I don't know whether this applies to any particular female author.) However, the issues of what is and isn't rape, particularly in different cultures, is a live point (as seen on this thread), as is the question of how any particular person would, and/or should, react to being raped.

**A strong word. I would accept that there can be reasons to describe rape in a non-disturbing way (if, for instance, the author is seriously exploring rape fetishes), but I think that the number of cases where this applies is very small. In general, rape (like torture, murder, etc) should be portrayed negatively.

[Alexia]

Kay, none that I can recall

There were quite a few instances of rape in Last Light of the Sun. The farmgirl who was raped and blood-eagled, the simulated rape between the Jormsvik captain and the prostitute, the threats of rape against Rhiannon and her mother by the Erling attackers.

In Tigana, girls are seized and turned over to be sex slaves as Tribute.

Those are the only two Kay books I've read so far.

[ambyr]

(about Across the Nightingale Floor)

One more I just remembered: In Across the Nightingale floor the female lead is almost almost-raped (IIRC a random dude tried to touch her) and this is used as the main vehicle for her character development. Fail.

Thanks, I'd almost managed to put that book out of my memory :-P.

Don't the leads also

end up having a touching romantic scene in the same room as the bleeding corpse of a man who's just tried to rape the female lead? Yeah.

[Eurytus]

There were quite a few instances of rape in Last Light of the Sun. The farmgirl who was raped and blood-eagled, the simulated rape between the Jormsvik captain and the prostitute, the threats of rape against Rhiannon and her mother by the Erling attackers.

In Tigana, girls are seized and turned over to be sex slaves as Tribute.

Those are the only two Kay books I've read so far.

I haven't read the first book. In the second one mentioned, well its so offscreen that I really wouldn't count it. Unless we are saying that a world in which any non-consensual sex at all happens no matter how far offscreen can be included. Which seems pretty broad.

[Imagica]

Kay's Sarantium also implies this happening to one of the characters. And the other was forced to become a prostitute against her will (although I'm not sure about this, been a while since I've read it).

And I've been told one of Vance's protagonists is a rapist himself (Cujel, IIRC).

[MattL86]

TBH, I have a lot more problems with the near rape scene than an actual rape scene. Everything is still on the table, but it's a cowardly way for an author to pull on emotional strings without actually doing anything meaningful. I had the same problem with some books I read as far as torture scenes, where nothing permanently damaging is done so that the victim can always leave the torture unharmed.

The only thing that bothers me is if the details get overly specific, but then there are a lot of sex scenes that aren't rape that creep me out for giving too many 'not sexy' details (see Tyrion's sex scenes in ASOIAF, some of the sex scenes in Best Served Cold, etc)

[Bellis]

I don't have a problem with rape per se, and, for the most part, I'm with Wastrel on this issue. Shit happened to women (and men) in pre-contemporary western cultures, and shit continues to happen to the vulnerable in our world. I don't consider a secondary world realistic where everyone is nice and polite, and where war is all glory and honor and no pain, death or abuse of non-combatants.

However, the reaction of a character to rape and the consequences for that character can be handled well or poorly. One series that handles sexual trauma well and believably, imho, is Sarah Monette's Doctrine of Labyrinths (an example of male rape btw). Liveships... not so much.

As a writer, I think it's important to understand that not all people react to trauma (any trauma, not just rape) in the same way. Some women might consider it a fate worse than death, others may recover more easily or appear visibly recovered while suffering from PTSD. Depends on the personal history of those characters, their personality, their social milieu, the culture of their world, etc etc.

Basically, respect your characters and treat what happens to them seriously, and I probably won't have a problem with it.

[Wastrel]

Maithanet:

- the navy quote was describing naval tradition as "rum, sodomy and the lash" even into the 20th century.

- regarding Dany and Drogo: the fact that neither of them considered it rape doesn't mean it wasn't. After all, many 'raped' children these days may not consider it rape, at least at the time. I'm not saying it WAS rape, mind you... I'm just saying that that's not a reason why it WASN'T rape.

Eurytus: in Wolfe, there is a rape scene, apparently, although I didn't realise it was rape at the time, and in fact you can only be sure it's rape by comparing incidental comments across several books. [Ah, the joys of unreliable narrators]

[Shryke]

Rape sadly is a not uncommon in life, and so should be represented in literature. What I have a problem with, as others have already expressed, is gratuitous rape scenes that serve no purpose, or even worse, rape-as-character-development.

Hobb and Donaldson have been mentioned so I'll put my thoughts on those scenes down:

Hobb: I may have missed it because the second half of any Hobb novel is so full of filler that I'm generally skimming by that point, but I don't recall Althea's rape serving any purpose in the story. Also Hobb seemed confused about what she wanted to do with Kennit, as in the end he comes off as this tragic figure, and I guess we're just supposed to forget about his tendency to rape people.

Donaldson: This scene actually served a purpose in the novel, and as Min pointed out it had real consequences for those involved. And yes Covenant also comes off as a tragic figure in the end, but in a much different way than Kennit, and we are never allowed to forget about the rape.

One more I just remembered: In Across the Nightingale floor the female lead is almost almost-raped (IIRC a random dude tried to touch her) and this is used as the main vehicle for her character development. Fail.

With respect to the Hobb one:

We aren't supposed to forget what Kennit is or does. That's what makes him interesting (and probably her best character).

He's a terrible person. But there's an understandable, one might argue sympathetic reason, for his actions.

And, in yet another twist, everyone thinks he's a big hero at the end.

But in reality, he's just a horrible rapist fuckwad.

[ambyr]

There were quite a few instances of rape in Last Light of the Sun. The farmgirl who was raped and blood-eagled, the simulated rape between the Jormsvik captain and the prostitute, the threats of rape against Rhiannon and her mother by the Erling attackers.

In Tigana, girls are seized and turned over to be sex slaves as Tribute.

Those are the only two Kay books I've read so far.

Also, Lions of Al-Rassan:

"This man raped the mother of two children, near to term with another child. Then he put his sword inside her, up inside her, and ripped it out, and left her to bleed to death."

Re: Tolkien

Grima Wormtongue's threats to Eowyn

Re: Wolfe

Severian rapes Jolenta.

Re: Gaiman

American Gods: several slave characters (in the history/mythology bits) are said to have been raped.

Just throwing out things from memory here. . . .

[alguien]

Tolkien, none that I can recall

Pratchett, none that I can recall

Gaimen, none that I can recall

Kay, none that I can recall

Holdstock, none that I can recall

Clarke, none that I can recall

Erikson, very rare indeed as I recall

Martin, usually off screen other than the Cersei, Dani examples mentioned above

Zelazny, none that I can recall

Vance, not in the ones I have read

Wolfe, as above

Vance = Pretty sure Cugel the Clever has done.

Tolkien = its never explicitly stated, but Elrond's wife was captured by orcs and "tortured", and after being rescued, left Middle Earth. Its why his sons hunt down orcs.

Pratchett = some of the women soldiers in Monstrous Regiment were at their "school." Also all the people tortured in Night Watch.

Gaiman = Jesus Christ, yes. Quite graphic with the muse in Sandman.

Zelzany = there was at least mentioned in Amber. And Hell Tanner wasn't a saint.

[alguien]

Basically, respect your characters and treat what happens to them seriously, and I probably won't have a problem with it.

This, to me, sums up the thread eloquently. Well said.

[gladius]

if you include it, make it relevant.

The worst example i've ever read is in A Cavern of Black Ice

rape as deus ex machina

[Eurytus]

Vance = Pretty sure Cugel the Clever has done.

Tolkien = its never explicitly stated, but Elrond's wife was captured by orcs and "tortured", and after being rescued, left Middle Earth. Its why his sons hunt down orcs.

Pratchett = some of the women soldiers in Monstrous Regiment were at their "school." Also all the people tortured in Night Watch.

Gaiman = Jesus Christ, yes. Quite graphic with the muse in Sandman.

Zelzany = there was at least mentioned in Amber. And Hell Tanner wasn't a saint.

I have not read Sandman.

Some of these are real reaches. Elrond's wife? Its not even close to being implied that she was.

And from the other post, Grima's threats to Eowyn, again, a bit of a reach.

When we reach the point where rape is "mentioned" or "implied" and even when doing that we are struggling to come up with examples then it really does refute the point that its widely used in fantasy.

[Trebla]

Vance = Pretty sure Cugel the Clever has done.

Tolkien = its never explicitly stated, but Elrond's wife was captured by orcs and "tortured", and after being rescued, left Middle Earth. Its why his sons hunt down orcs.

Pratchett = some of the women soldiers in Monstrous Regiment were at their "school." Also all the people tortured in Night Watch.

Gaiman = Jesus Christ, yes. Quite graphic with the muse in Sandman.

Zelzany = there was at least mentioned in Amber. And Hell Tanner wasn't a saint.

The closest in Tolkien I recall was Morgoth having an "evil lust" when Luthien was dancing for him. However she bedazzled him before he could do anything. The narrative describes Morgoth conceiving of the vilest of designs or something like that. I always thought it was referring to rape.

[Lady Cheesevillage]

Kay actually portrays one of the rapes that is most memorable (and horrible) that I remember in the Fionvar Tapestry.

Spoiler

Jennifer is raped by Rakoth Maugrim, which results in the conception of Darien, who is pretty central to the whole end-game of the series.

It creates an incredible amount of conflict, not just for the victim, but for her friends. I think that while the crime is blatant there, the reactions to it are incredibly nuanced and realistic.

Of course, I just love that series and I know that makes me the odd one out here.