A Game of Thrones a tad bit Orientalist?

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

I don't understand why slavery would need a beaurocratic structure? Regardless, a slave is a type of serf and I certainly think that serfdom as a whole is essentially slavery with different levels of rights for the slaves.

Did you read my post?

[Spastic Plastic]

Shameless bump, because this thread is pretty interesting.

Westeros doesn't seem to have serfs, since the setting is more late-medieval. I think "villeins" is the correct word for this. GRRM himself uses "crofters" to describe independent smallfolk.

The debate about orientalism is pretty much exhausted, but I think the OP was 100% right. The Dothraki almost come off as barbarian caricatures.

If Khal Drogo's khalasar ever invaded Westeros, they would be massacred. Not only do they refuse to wear any sort of armor, but they're extremely ignorant. Jorah's story had them charging repeatedly at the Unsullied until their Khal and his sons were dead. Defeating Khal Drogo would be child's play for Tyrion and Tywin.

[Datepalm]

If Khal Drogo's khalasar ever invaded Westeros, they would be massacred. Not only do they refuse to wear any sort of armor, but they're extremely ignorant. Jorah's story had them charging repeatedly at the Unsullied until their Khal and his sons were dead. Defeating Khal Drogo would be child's play for Tyrion and Tywin.

Well, to be fair, thats an ancient folktale and probably grew in the telling. We never really see Dothraki fighting an equal enemy, just raiding and pillaging. Since they clearly do have decent metalworking skills, we could assume that theres some light armour of the mongol kind rattling around someplace in all those carts, besides, only a small minority of a westerosi fighting force is armoured knights. Something like 9/10th of an army are lightly armoured, barely trained foot, and the Dothrakis would cut through them like cheese, and then its 40k dothraki versus 4k knights. Anyway to get back to the meta subject, its just not apparently thought out that well.

[Phantom]

If the Dothraki were meant to resemble the turks, and with the current era in Westeros I'm assuming Seljuk Turks or even the Ottoman Empire, then Martin failed. Badly. Both were renouned for their advances in military strength, religious influence, and the arts for their time. And the Dothraki are just...Primitive. Very flat writing on Martin's part, which is unusual.

[Ran]

GRRM on the Dothraki:

The Dothraki, for example, are based in part on the Mongols, the Alans, and the Huns, but their skin coloring is Amerindian.

I would guess that in most of these cases, he's referencing these groups in their earliest, least organized, most barbaric periods as opposed to thinking, you know, post-Genghis Mongols and so on.

[Phantom]

GRRM on the Dothraki:

I would guess that in most of these cases, he's referencing these groups in their earliest, least organized, most barbaric periods as opposed to thinking, you know, post-Genghis Mongols and so on.

Interesting. I always assumed the current Era in Westeros (laws and customs included) could be compared to the High middle ages (c. 1000 - 1300), which would place the Dothraki is a more post-Genghis mongol era. But I guess it might be earlier than that. Either that or Westeros is functioning on a different time scale. Maybe time is continuous in Westeros instead of linear!

[Ran]

George doesn't work that way. Just because Westeros fits roughly in an 11th-15th century mode doesn't mean the Dothraki do. He grabs elements from all over the place and all sorts of time periods. :)

[Spastic Plastic]

It says in AGOT that the Dothraki consider any forms of armor to be cowardly. And they're not wearing light scale armor, like Oberyn does. They wear just painted vests.

And they seem to know nothing of tactics either - read Jorah's story again. None of the smart tactics the Mongols were known for, just shooting arrows from a distance or suicidally charging head-on.

I really dislike the Dothraki.

[Ran]

Note that that was the first time that the Dothraki came out of the Dothraki Sea to attack the Free Cities, so that particular case may not be representative of where the Dothraki are now, in terms of tactics. Jorah certainly did not think highly of Robert's chances commanding an army in open battle against Drogo and his screamers.

[Spastic Plastic]

Yeah, but Robert is Robert. He is an idiot who would've fought the Dothraki on their own terms. Also, I doubt Dothraki tactics have changed at all, as evidenced by Khal Drogo charging first and getting a fatal wound.

Tyrion would never do that.

EDIT: Oh, wait...he did....

For a brilliant portrayal of extremely violent nomadic barbarians, see R Scott Bakker's Scylvendi.

[Lord Mord]

This is bullshit. If you don't like the Dothraki, you don't like them, but don't pretend there's some objective reason why they're worse than anything else.

[Ran]

... as evidenced by Khal Drogo charging first and getting a fatal wound.

We have no idea of the tactics involved in Drogo's battle. Nothing says that all Drogo did was lead a general charge, or that he started off the battle from the front. That said, the barbaric Dothraki prefer men who lead from the front is nothing new. Most "barbaric" groups placed an extremely high importance on personal valor. Pretty sure Bakker's Scylvendi warleaders largely led from the front, too....

Ned led from the front, as well, for that matter. And even into the modern era there have been generals who personally led their men into battle (Rommel's an obvious example) even though warfare has become much more sophisticated over the intervening few thousands of years. Or to pick some more nomadic examples: Genghis, Subotai, and Timur are all said to have led from the front on at least some occasions.

As to Tyrion's charge, someone had to lead it, and no one else was capable of getting the men behind him to do it.

[bacchys]

Occidentalism would be a better term than Orientalism for this thread...

[bacchys]

Yeah, but Robert is Robert. He is an idiot who would've fought the Dothraki on their own terms.

What little we know of Robert suggests he was a pretty capable commander by Westerosi standards. From his early victories in the Stormlands during Robert's Rebellion to the taking of Pike, he was obviously no slouch.

[ice snake]

I have also found the descriptions of the Dothraki and the East a little flat in comparison to Westeros but I do think a huge part of that is Dany's POV. She's very single-minded, as is required if she's going to do the impossible and take her kingdom back. IMO, if we had the Oriental equivalent of Dani, someone who came to Westeros to gather their strength before heading back east, he/she might report on Westeros the way Dani does on the east. I don't dare criticize GRRM because the man is the MAN but I believe if some of Dani's POV chapters had been given to Jorah or especially, Irri, this thread would not even exist.

What really made this clear for me was seeing court intrigue from Cersei's POV instead of Tyrion's. It's an entirely different place when we're in Cersei's mind and every other character is reduced to friend or foe. Tyrion seemed to present a much fuller view of most of the characters and not just in terms of whether or not he could use them. Also, getting the chance to see the court from Tyrion, Cersei, Sansa, Jamie, Arya and Ned's POV created incredible depth. Littlefinger, Sandor, Lancel, Twyin, etc would all have been much flatter characters if we only had Cersei or only Tyrion's POV. And what about Jamie? Getting his POV completely changed the character for most of us. It says a lot about Dany's singularity of focus that we get so little of the personality of the eastern characters. At the same time, I think GRRM is being true to Dani. A person like her would not be reading people the way that Tyrion does.

I have no idea what happens next but I would love for one our current POV characters (Tyrion? Arya?) to somehow get involved in Dany's story. It would go a long way to bring the same dynamism to the eastern settings that we have in Westeros.

[Phantom]

George doesn't work that way. Just because Westeros fits roughly in an 11th-15th century mode doesn't mean the Dothraki do. He grabs elements from all over the place and all sorts of time periods. :)

Haha, ignore my previous post. 4 a.m and half asleep at the time. It absolutely makes sense seeing as in our world, many civilizations were still years behind in terms of technology and infrastructure. I haven't the slightest idea why I assumed the Dothraki would have to be post-Genghis mongol era in accordance to the advancement of Westeros. Failure on my part to think straight!

[Alexia]

EDIT: Oh, wait...he did....

Except it wasn't fatal. ;)

Tyrion, Drogo, Robert, Robb and Ned leading a charge would not be anything all that unusual. Edward IV got some blood on his sword fighting for his crown; Henry V did some good fighting himself too. They aren't the only ones either.

[Miriel]

I have also found the descriptions of the Dothraki and the East a little flat in comparison to Westeros but I do think a huge part of that is Dany's POV. She's very single-minded, as is required if she's going to do the impossible and take her kingdom back.

Also, she is very young, and her upbringing and education have been less than ideal at the time of her marriage to Drogo. But Martin I think was trying to show us her growth out on the Dothraki sea, and she came to appreciate the Dothraki and their ways during that period of time, which I interpret as his attempt to more fully develop the Dothraki, as seen through Dany's still immature eyes.

[MountainThatRides]

I don't really understand the usage of the term "Orientalist" as pertaining to this subject. The Dothraki are not expressly painted as Asiatic, but rather Native American in coloring and appearance as Rann pointed out, and their culture draws from several historic parallels. They are not simply Mongols transplanted into the world of Martin. I've personally always considered them a quite elegant composite culture, with all of their beliefs, superstitions and attitudes contributing to give them an authentically barbaric feel.

Of course they're barbarians; we were never led to believe otherwise. They're meant to embody the same menace that the Huns, Alans, Mongols, etc., all posed to their more-civilized neighbors. It's the general fear of outsiders that have no respect for your culture or beliefs coming in and overwhelming your world. There are many examples of barbarism, not limited only to the Dothraki; the wildlings, the Ironborn, and narrower examples like the Brave Companions, Craster, Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane. Many of them are at different levels of civility, with the Dothraki being the most primitive.

The wildlings are romanticized quite a bit but they're no less cruel than the Dothraki. They "steal women" to make their wives; that's rape and thralldom. Within the wildling clans themselves the women acknowledge that they will be stolen by a man, but it's not as though the wildlings don't do it to other women when they raid below the Wall. The Ironborn do the same with their salt wives. They're all brutal cultures, and there's brutality everywhere in the world, even in Westeros, though admittedly it reaches a fever pitch during times of war.

In Martin's world, just like in our real history, civility and progress -- this goes beyond moral values and other factors like philosophy, language, architecture, etc. should be considered -- come hand in hand with exposure to other cultures. Westeros is something of an oversized Britain; there's the infusion of First Man, Andal and Rhoynish cultures, just like medieval Britain was a gradual mingling of peoples -- first the Britons, Gaels and Celts, then the Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Danish Vikings and finally the Normans. Every invader left a lasting mark on the native population, and that contributes largely to the development of a culture. Slaver's Bay was part of the Ghiscari Empire, and then under the dominion of the Freehold, just as the Free Cities were (excepting Braavos); under empires, trade and cultural melding flourishes, and the good ideas always come to the fore. In sharp contrast the Dothraki are very isolationist and xenophobic. They trade with other cultures but they do not value them, but rather see them as a necessary resource. They are a nomadic people, constantly moving through the Dothraki sea; their only "permanent" city is Vaes Dothrak, and it's a largely ceremonial and religious place, not a teeming metropolis like King's Landing. They never graduated from a culture of hunter/gatherers; they don't build or sow. That's not centuries behind other cultures, as perhaps the Wildlings are, but rather millennia of human development.

The Dothraki have a very child-like sense of superstition. They disdain things they don't understand. They believe in force, courage, blood: strength. This is not so unrealistic. They have some redeeming qualities, but most of them are very primitive because all of their influence comes from the natural world, whether from the predators of the tall grass or from their beloved horses. Militarily, they rely completely on a swarming horde tactic emphasizing self-sacrifice and speed. They refuse to accept the notion of building defensive fortifications out of stone, but rather consider any defensive principles cowardly, and that alone shows their inferiority to the peoples of Westeros or the Nine Free Cities. Despite this, they are still feared, and rightly so; the cities of Essos pay them tribute rather than endure their wrath. It's not as though the Free Cities would necessarily lose a war against the Dothraki, especially if they formed some temporary alliance, but it's simply cheaper to buy them off than to deal with their relentless onslaught. Keep in mind, these cities have no feudal levies, not on the scope of Westeros at least. The Dothraki would be sorely outmatched by any proper Westerosi army.

When they do horrible things, it is accepted behavior. "It is known." That's their way -- regarding the sexual practices during the wedding ceremony, for example. When they rape a conquered people it is not something that strikes them as morally reprehensible. They view most other cultures as inferior, as cowardly or contemptible; they don't offer quarter. The same can be said for most armies in Martin's world during times of war. The difference is that the Dothraki live in a more or less constant state of martial action. Their dismissal of women or the elderly doesn't quite hold up, at least not in terms of their own people; the Dosh Khaleen disprove both arguments. It is simply a hard and mobile way of life, and the weak are rooted out naturally. It is a pack mentality.

In conclusion, the Dothraki are barbaric but it isn't quite Orientalism. There are cultures further east of them that are civilized. They are simply an example of one path of cultural development that is by no means unheard of in the real world. The "Oriental" culture in Martin's world strikes me as being largely east of Asshai -- Yi Ti strikes me as the "Martinian" equivalent of the far east.

[Ran]

In conclusion, the Dothraki are barbaric but it isn't quite Orientalism. There are cultures further east of them that are civilized.

Orientalism can cover both the tropes of Asiatic barbarism and Asiatic decadent civilization. So the argument can run that the Dothraki, the Ghiscari, and the Qartheen are all examples of cultures seen through an Orientalist lens.

Qarth's triple-walled city is reminiscent of Byzantium (as is the placement in control of an extremely important waterway) and the Byzantines were certainly the subject of Orientalist readings both contemporaneously and in modern times. The lewd acts depicted on one of those walls, on the other hand, is reminsicent of the Sanskrit-era temples, and that (and the sort of perverse, shameless eroticism) definitely part of the Oriental mystique when one looks at Victorian culture, one of the great eras for representing the Other as Oriental.

GRRM specifically noted, on the other hand, that the Unsullied were (very loosely) inspired by the Janassaries of the Ottoman Empire, certainly a subject of Orientalist interpretation; and Ghis's similarity to Carthage to Valyria's Rome also falls within the scope of Orientalist, as Edward Said argued in the past (vis-a-vis Flaubert's Salammbô).

All you have for Yi Ti is a name which sounds vaguely Asian, basically, so in fact it's kind of odd to think of this culture as "Oriental" without more information.

Now, I say all this because I take issue with the idea that the Dothraki can't be an example of Orientalist tropes because there are more advanced civilizations to the East. That doesn't jive with what Orientalism is about. But that said, I am less caught up on the idea that because GRRM very, very roughly calques various cultural aspects to roughly corresponding geographical areas in the real world, that this is because he's falling into some kind of trap of Orientalism.

I will say that GRRM's biggest influence in his depiction of the East is probably Jack Vance. He created a dizzying amount of strange, decadent cultures. The "flavor" of chapters set in Qarth or Ghis is I think a bit in that direction. One of Vance's chief influences, in turn, was a series of novels set in Asia by an author whose name escapes me, who did mix certain racist ideas persistent in that time regarding Asian culture and manners. I wish I could remember the name of the author in question. Edmund/Edward/Edgar B-something...