Question about Malazan

[kuenjato]

[Shryke]

Yes, one minor but endless plot (the serial killer) and one actual decent one(inside the Sword).

And then the rest of the stuff just converges on the city ... why? No reason. Just does.

Meanwhile, random other shit happens that takes up 90% of the book.

I'm not going to argue about this as, the whole charge is so vague.

It's not vague, it's most of the damn book. Virtually every single chapter begins with like 2 pages of Kruppe ruminating on the same thing, over and over again, in a really annoying fashion.

And that's just the start of that.

[MadMardigan]

Rothfuss isn't universally loved on this board, nor is Lynch's second novel. I haven't read Sanderson, but by glancing at his books, the prose rings middle-of-the-road to my inner ear. Compare that with the discussions on "actual" literature etc. that people have on this board, and you'll find it's not so much prolific release dates that generates critiques as it is the generally high caliber of intellect and reading experience that many on the board possess.

So what is "actual" literature?

[Nerdanel]

The reasons why stuff converges in Darujhistan:

1. Since Darujhistan is a populous and important city state, a lot of stuff is going on there on a normal day, adding to the confusion.

2. MASSIVE TtH SPOILERS:

Dragnipur is the most powerful magic sword ever, and a LOT of powerful entities would love to own it, given the opportunity.

Darujhistan, being large and populous with a police force that doesn't use magic to solve the murders of poor people, is a fine place for arranging the ritual for summoning Hood without making it entirely obvious beforehand or having the whole thing fail due to an untimely arrest. It is also not Black Coral, which means that Anomander Rake's people avoid having to suffer the destruction of a Convergence.

I found Kruppe's bits at the beginnings and ends of chapters very nice in how they tied up the story and kept the disparate storylines feeling connected to each other.

[Blaine]

So much for my analysis of Malazan... however, I'd like if some of the contributors to this thread, especially those who complained about lack of characterization could comment on my perception about Deadhouse Gates. Right now I feel rather strange for having liked it so much when most people seem to go along the lines of "Erikson's characters are shit and his stories aren't very engaging". I'm curious about your thoughts.

You know, it's funny you mention that. Because after I finally slogged through Gardens of the Moon, I wrote here about how much I detested that book, but that I already owned Deadhouse Gates. The Erikson fans at the time really praised the second book - specifically for Felisin and the Chain of Dogs. I heard the phrase that Felisin was one of the greatest female characters written, the Chain of Dogs totally redeems everything that made GotM so boring to get through.

So I read it. And I'll be the first person to admit that DG was leagues better than GotM. But was it revelatory? No. Even if his characterization was better than the first book - it still wasn't up to the level of most authors I would read, let alone recommend to others.

To be honest, I couldn't find the gravity in Erikson, when the majority of the plots were either "mysteries to be resolved in a later book" or "something based on a million year old race/superpowered mage/god in a floating castle."

So, yeah I wasn't engaged and I didn't care about any of characters. So I bailed. Now, except for the die-hards, the general consensus is clearly that the quality of the writing has declined even further.

[Sariel]

Yes, one minor but endless plot (the serial killer) and one actual decent one(inside the Sword).

And then the rest of the stuff just converges on the city ... why? No reason. Just does.

Meanwhile, random other shit happens that takes up 90% of the book.

It's not vague, it's most of the damn book. Virtually every single chapter begins with like 2 pages of Kruppe ruminating on the same thing, over and over again, in a really annoying fashion.

And that's just the start of that.

That's the thing with TtH though. The Narrator is Kruppe yes, and the book is in essence built like any other monologue of his throughout the series.

If Kruppe had told the story of the events that unfolds in TtH, I think he would've told it very much like Erikson chose to do. In a way I'd argue that TtH is impressive in consistency and what it achieves even though in the end it made for a -for many- much more frustrating reading experience than it could've been.

So yeah, not an enjoyable reading experience for most but an impressive accomplishment all the same I think.

[Slick Mongoose]

Kruppe I actually didn't mind as much, I could just skip his bits. The endless internal pseudo-philosophical monologues from every single character in the book, OTOH.....

[kuenjato]

So what is "actual" literature?

I put it in quotes for a reason. Search around on this board and you'll find discussions of virtually every area of fiction and non-fiction released from the Gutenburg Galaxy to the latest doorstopper epic fantasies.

Thus, a poster like Dylanfanatic (to use an obvious example) is going to have a wide range of comparitive analysis, and will frame his opinions accordingly. That goes for many, many others around here. Hence my argument that prolific writing, as a general negative impression, is invalidated when formulating theories as to this board's critical trend.

[MadMardigan]

I put it in quotes for a reason. Search around on this board and you'll find discussions of virtually every area of fiction and non-fiction released from the Gutenburg Galaxy to the latest doorstopper epic fantasies.

Thus, a poster like Dylanfanatic (to use an obvious example) is going to have a wide range of comparitive analysis, and will frame his opinions accordingly. That goes for many, many others around here. Hence my argument that prolific writing, as a general negative impression, is invalidated when formulating theories as to this board's critical trend.

No, what you did was insult books that I've enjoyed while asserting claims to some high minded intellectual predilections and, when asked to provide examples of what exactly passes for actual literature (as opposed to the tripe I read) you tell me to use the search feature? :D

Look, I've already admitted I was being cheeky with the whole "prolific author" slant... just taking a jab at some well publicized and often lamented delays.

[Cot]

[End of Disc One]

Now, except for the die-hards, the general consensus is clearly that the quality of the writing has declined even further.

The prose itself has gotten better, and I don't see how anyone can argue that.

[Zach H]

The prose itself has gotten better, and I don't see how anyone can argue that.

Yeah, not to mention that I wouldn't consider myself a "diehard" (haven't read books 8 or 9 yet, nor anything of ICE's, I certainly like Erikson but I wouldn't put him on a level with Wolfe or Peake, etc), and yet Midnight Tides is my favorite of the series thus far. Thought it was much better than Deadhouse Gates.

[kungtotte]

It's not vague, it's most of the damn book. Virtually every single chapter begins with like 2 pages of Kruppe ruminating on the same thing, over and over again, in a really annoying fashion.

And that's just the start of that.

You're being redundant.

[jurble]

You're being redundant.

What, ruminate doesn't imply annoying. Ruminating is like what a cow does. It implies that the thing is moving slooooow. But you need not be ruminating and annoying.

[Nerdanel]

I'm not one of the Kruppe fans. I tend to get more annoyed by his dialogue than amused. Before I read TtH I dreaded the rumors I had heard of Kruppe narrating it. However, it turns out that I genuinely enjoyed Kruppe's narration. I think it's because he was actually narrating and not trying to pull wool over someone's eyes with his fast talk. Also, the length of the passages allowed Kruppe's florid style more room to breathe.

Okay, maybe I like purple prose more than the average person (as long as it doesn't veer into over-theatrical melodrama, Guy Gavriel Kay style). I'm a Clark Ashton Smith fan for one thing, and the aggressively bland beige prose of Sanderson didn't work for me at all.

[kungtotte]

What, ruminate doesn't imply annoying. Ruminating is like what a cow does. It implies that the thing is moving slooooow. But you need not be ruminating and annoying.

Saying that Kruppe is annoying is the redundant part. He's always annoying, because that's just the way he's written. It doesn't matter if he's ruminating, speculating, percolating or whatever.

[Shryke]

Yeah, not to mention that I wouldn't consider myself a "diehard" (haven't read books 8 or 9 yet, nor anything of ICE's, I certainly like Erikson but I wouldn't put him on a level with Wolfe or Peake, etc), and yet Midnight Tides is my favorite of the series thus far. Thought it was much better than Deadhouse Gates.

I'd say it's POST Midnight Tides where it starts going downhill.

I quite enjoyed MT.

The prose itself has gotten better, and I don't see how anyone can argue that.

In what sense?

[The Evil Hat]

So, I started Return of the Crimson Guard this afternoon, and I figured I'd ask a Malazan question that's been bugging me for a while: how long has the Malazan empire been around? It seems like it should only be thirty or forty years, but there are references to Kellanved fighthing "decade long wars," and to things being "before Possum's time" when they're relatively recent in the empire's history (examples taken from Return... because they're freshest for obvious reasons).

Also, how does this passage (describing a house in Unta):

[He] grimaced at the poor colors of a Letherii board painting...

jive with no one in the empire having ever heard of Letheras?

Besides that nit pick, though, I'm enjoying Return so far.

[kungtotte]

The Empire has been around for about 100 years. If memory serves, the scene that plays out in the prologue to Gardens of the Moon is listed as being in the 96th year of Kellanved's rule, so that's how long the Empire has formally been around when the series starts. Plus however long it took Kellanved to actually form the Empire after he decided it'd be a good idea. And of course there's another 10 or so years of Laseen being in power, but that's harder to pin-point given the confusing nature of the global timeline.

[The Evil Hat]

Ah, alright then. I guess I should pay some attention to dates, if I'm going to have questions like this. I suppose that means that the entirety of the Old Guard is, at least to some degree, more than human, if they're to still pose a threat to Laseen's rule?