Question about Malazan

[jurble]

Ah, alright then. I guess I should pay some attention to dates, if I'm going to have questions like this.

NO

NO

NO

DO NOT PAY ATTENTION TO DATES. IT WILL LEAD TO MISERY.

[Old Nan]

I suppose that means that the entirety of the Old Guard is, at least to some degree, more than human, if they're to still pose a threat to Laseen's rule?

You would suppose so, but it doesn't seem to be that way. Crust, Urko, and Nok, who were Kellanved's bar-flunkies-turned-admirals, don't seem to be in any way superhuman. It seems likely that the surviving Talons, like the Claws, have their fair share of mages, but even Laseen (the Surly tavern wench) herself isn't explicitly stated to have any magical talent. The nature of Dassem Ultor is supremely confusing.

But the backstory keeps getting even more confusing for just about everyone with each retcon. Kellanved, for instance, was originally supposed to be a bar owner and petty crime boss on Malaz Island; as of Night of Knives he's a "Dal Honese elder from the savannah of south-western Quon Tali," essentially a tribal witch-doctor.

[Nerdanel]

But the backstory keeps getting even more confusing for just about everyone with each retcon. Kellanved, for instance, was originally supposed to be a bar owner and petty crime boss on Malaz Island; as of Night of Knives he's a "Dal Honese elder from the savannah of south-western Quon Tali," essentially a tribal witch-doctor.

Kellanved was a Dal Honese high mage (beware or racist assumptions!) who at one point was running a bar in Malaz City. Considering the way he rolls, he was probably planning to become a king if not an emperor all along and just found Malaz City with its weak central rule the ideal target for a takeover. I don't see any retcon there.

Laseen wasn't a caster. She was an anti-magic assassin who used the power of otataral.

[kungtotte]

The nature of Dassem Ultor is supremely confusing.

Oh dude, that's a can of worms best left unopened if people have problems just keeping track of the timeline.

[Gormenghast]

You would suppose so, but it doesn't seem to be that way. Crust, Urko, and Nok, who were Kellanved's bar-flunkies-turned-admirals, don't seem to be in any way superhuman.

I read this the other day.

All of them had their headquarter in the Deadhouse and it explicitly states that it gave them longevity and other particular powers (this before ascendancy).

Also wrong that they were criminals. Those three were already admirals or something. The criminals were those under Mock rule on Malaz. Crust & company instead were Napans at war with Unta that allied with Kellanved to win the war.

[Dothwacky]

Kellanved & Dancer set up on Mock's Hold with Dassem. [Dal Honese]

They recruited Dujek as a runner boy somewhere along the lines, then they recruited the Napans later on - Nok, the Crusts, Surly, Ameron.

I didn't think Dassem was all that confusing, but then I enjoy MBotF without needing to add a slavering of how inferior it is to GRRM's work :lol: I'm quite comfortable with Sorry/Apsalar's path to assassin and ascension over Arya and Needle any day.

[Ran]

The timeline thing about Dassem Ultor that is one of the handful of mysteries I still wonder about ... isn't there a reference to his having been present at the Chaining while Knight of High House Death, and that something or other with his daughter (who, IIRC, was found freshly killed... well, some Azath or other, I think in Deadhouse Gates) led to the split with Hood?

I always figured, you know, the Chaining was thousands and thousands of years ago. How was Ultor involved in that?

[jurble]

The timeline thing about Dassem Ultor that is one of the handful of mysteries I still wonder about ... isn't there a reference to his having been present at the Chaining while Knight of High House Death, and that something or other with his daughter (who, IIRC, was found freshly killed... well, some Azath or other, I think in Deadhouse Gates) led to the split with Hood?

I always figured, you know, the Chaining was thousands and thousands of years ago. How was Ultor involved in that?

Erikson has said there's been several Chainings.

Though, I wonder, why a general in the Malazan army would be present at a new Chaining, unless the most recent Chaining was after he left the army. I still don't get wtf Hood's plan was in murdering his daughter.

And everyone who was in the House of Azath-bar with Kellanved are super-human. The Azath House slowed their aging, so Laseen is like >100 years old now, but doesn't look it. This is the same reason that Ultor's daughter looked freshly killed, the Azath Houses have slow-time.

[polishgenius]

I always figured, you know, the Chaining was thousands and thousands of years ago. How was Ultor involved in that?

There's more than one Chaining.

[Ran]

Yeah, the slow-time I figured out. I figured Dassem deposited his daughter there to buy time to try and find some way to revive her or whatever. I gather nothing's come of it? Is this something for Esselmont's books, or just one those tantalizing loose ends that will never be wrapped up?

[Dothwacky]

There's been more than one Chaining of the CG, Dassem was present at the last one - which afaik from my malingerings on the malazan forum, wasn't all that long ago - which is where Hood took his daughter when Envy refused the summons. The daughter's body was placed in the Tremorlor Azath.

If you've read Toll then a lot more about Dassem should become clear, maybe. I fail at inadvertantly waving Spoilers around so I won't :P

I like the series, I understand it can be hard going for some but hey, sheer badassery is good for the soul ;)

[Dothwacky]

I assume at a chaining you need blood, and Dassem's daughter had been cut up.

[jurble]

The Chained God also reminds me of the argument for Guantanomo Bay "Even if they didn't hate America at first, now they do, therefore they're a security risk." By chaining that dude when he first crash-landed, they just made him grumpier, and now they can't let him go, because he's so grumpy.

[Dothwacky]

:lol: I like it Jurble

I'm looking forward to TCG :)

[Lord of Rhinos]

I always found the history of the Malazan Empire/Family storyline to be one of the most intriguing. Unfortunately it has been largely abandoned.

The Deadhouse is not the bar that Ammanas ran, but it was the Family's base of operations for a time. As has been mentioned it granted all the members of the Family increased longevity. Surly was a bar maid at the Emperor's tavern. She was also apparently some sort of exiled Napan royalty. I'm thinking Dassem actually showed up a little later.

[Dothwacky]

The Deadhouse is the Azath in Malaz City.

Smiley's is the bar Kellanved ran.

And the thing with Dassem is some throwaway comment by someone *memory eludes me* regarding Traveller, on how there were always three from the start, not just Kel and Dancer, and Traveller was him. Traveller - Dassem, whoosh.

Start low, get high :P

[Gormenghast]

A little tidbit from what I read today that says something about Erikson approach to characters.

Karsa at the beginning of the 4th book is defined not just through his look and attitude (though those are the elements showed on the front) but also through language. Karsa speaks always tersely, doesn't waste one word and always tells exactly what he thinks. Language is pragmatic, it lacks other facets. To the point that he gives the impression of not even perceiving the possibility or reason to lie.

Karsa's journey and evolution as a character is then reflected also on language. The first peculiar impression about Torvald Nom is about language. Torvald Nom is one who loves to talk and rely a lot on the convincing power of the word. This is something new for Karsa and his reaction goes from simple irritation to curiosity (the banter between the two is wonderful). Then he appears again after he's been in company of men for a while. His approach to language is still mostly the same (terse, pragmatic), but there are some subtle changes, for example as he speaks with Felisin. He thinks but not voices completely and plainly his thoughts, and he also doesn't even tell the whole truth of what he's thinking. His relationship with language changed subtly, but also radically.

This whole thing is then interesting because it isn't thrown randomly, but it resonates with what the character represents. Before his exposition to the rest of the world he never doubted once of his tribe's beliefs. Then his journey breaks the foundations of everything he believes, yet he clings to what he knew as if he can't see any other choice (not unlike Iktovian). But in the same way his beliefs were tainted, so becomes his language.

Now this is a good example of the kind of characterization Erikson realizes. It's easy to dismiss the character as the typical barbarian with a straightforward, pragmatic mind. Karsa is that, but he's also characterized subtly and the "type" that makes his character is motivated in the story and is object of the story itself. The nuances that make him a good character are subtle and they aren't forced and evidenced to the reader. You have to pay a particular attention to notice.

[Ran]

Just because people think Karsa Fucking Orlong was a misstep on Erikson's part doesn't mean they failed to notice the thematic thrust of what Erikson was trying to do, or how he went about doing in with an evolving prose style for the character.

You can recognize what an author's trying to do, and think they did it badly or otherwise failed in their aims.

[The Evil Hat]

Out of curiosity, why do you dislike Karsa so much? I love most of his parts, and I'm looking forward to figuring out what the hell happened to him after Reaper's Gale.

[Gormenghast]

Also another aspect, in the blog Erikson said how he uses themes are recurring cycles and how he weaves chapters around these themes.

The theme of Karsa resonates nicely with one quote of Trull Sengar:

"I am plagued by the need to be truthful."

The story acquires meaning by the way two different characters have to deal with something similar.