Historic Fiction

[Arataniello]

Name checking others that have not been mentioned yet in this thread -

Patrick O'Brian and his Aubrey-Maturin series set in the Royal Navy at the time of the Napoleonic Wars.

Nigel Tranter for his books about the history of Scotland. Especially his earlier novels, and those focussing on the Stewart period.

Ellis Peters, who wrote the Brother Cadfael books, also wrote some good historical novels under her real name of Edith Pargeter. The Heavn's Tree trilogy, the Brothers of Gwynedd series, The Marriage of Megotta and A Bloody Field by Shrewsbury are all enjoyable.

[pfitz]

Thanks for all the suggestions, I'll certainly check out some of those recommendations although I should have added both Steven Pressfield and George MacDonald Fraser to the list at the start.

I've read and enjoyed Shogun but I was wondering what people thought about some of Clavell's other books particularly Tai-Pan and Gai-Jin

:pimp:

[murphy]

Thanks for all the suggestions, I'll certainly check out some of those recommendations although I should have added both Steven Pressfield and George MacDonald Fraser to the list at the start.

I've read and enjoyed Shogun but I was wondering what people thought about some of Clavell's other books particularly Tai-Pan and Gai-Jin

:pimp:

I personally liked Tai-Pan, but didn't think Gai-Jin was up to par. King Rat was better.

[aschwiig]

I'll second Ian Pears' Instance at the Fingerpost and would add his Dream of Scipio, which handles Gaul at the time of the fall of the roman empire, Avignon at the time of the papal recidency, and France during the war. Not as immediatly exciting as Fingerpost[\i], but nevertheless excellent.

[Gareds Head]

Hi,

I've been into an aviation/historical fiction kick for a little while and enjoyed books by Frank Barnard (Blue Man Falling), Derek Robinson (Goshawk Squadron) and any of the pre WW2 thrillers of Alan Furst

[wolverine]

I'll second Ian Pears' Instance at the Fingerpost and would add his Dream of Scipio, which handles Gaul at the time of the fall of the roman empire, Avignon at the time of the papal recidency, and France during the war. Not as immediatly exciting as Fingerpost[\i], but nevertheless excellent.

How accessible are Pear's books? It seems I have been reading a lot of complex books and am looking for a lighter break.

[McCloskey]

Thanks for all the suggestions, I'll certainly check out some of those recommendations although I should have added both Steven Pressfield and George MacDonald Fraser to the list at the start.

I've read and enjoyed Shogun but I was wondering what people thought about some of Clavell's other books particularly Tai-Pan and Gai-Jin

:pimp:

I have been reading the Asian Saga for the last few months and just finished King Rat. I have liked them all so far and may have liked Tai-Pan better than Shogun (though its close). Gai Jin is good as it ties some things between Shogun and Tai-Pan together. King Rat has been much better than expected as well and I just ordered Noble House. If you are looking for a series of books with large casts of characters from multiple POVs with political intrigue and alot of action in real world historical settings you will like these books.

[Liadin]

I have been reading the Asian Saga for the last few months and just finished King Rat. I have liked them all so far and may have liked Tai-Pan better than Shogun (though its close). Gai Jin is good as it ties some things between Shogun and Tai-Pan together. King Rat has been much better than expected as well and I just ordered Noble House. If you are looking for a series of books with large casts of characters from multiple POVs with political intrigue and alot of action in real world historical settings you will like these books.

So I read the first 20 pages of Shogun the other day, and it just felt very.... dated. Y'know, white man shows up in Japan and is served by some Japanese woman and... it just felt like Orientalism was seeping through the pages. Plus, the main character seemed like a jerk. Were I to continue, would these books measure up to my 2010 liberal sensibilities? Or should I save myself the trouble? (As a reference point, I've enjoyed a bit of Michener, but wound up deciding his work is too dated for my tastes, which is why I didn't recommend him.)

[aschwiig]

How accessible are Pear's books? It seems I have been reading a lot of complex books and am looking for a lighter break.

Fingerpost has a fairly complex plot but is still a very easy read. This is for me in part due to a set of very strong and well developed charfacters. Also, the plot revolves around not too distant historical events with very real consequences, and is probably fairly well-known for most people here. I couldn't put it down.

Scipio is a different story, in that it is more thematically driven than plot driven, connecting events occuring over fifteen centuries, some of them a bit obscure. Ok, perhaps obscure is not the right word for the interplay of the declining roman society in Gaul and the German invaders of same, but still. It's very rewarding on re-read, though.

[wolverine]

So I read the first 20 pages of Shogun the other day, and it just felt very.... dated. Y'know, white man shows up in Japan and is served by some Japanese woman and... it just felt like Orientalism was seeping through the pages. Plus, the main character seemed like a jerk. Were I to continue, would these books measure up to my 2010 liberal sensibilities? Or should I save myself the trouble? (As a reference point, I've enjoyed a bit of Michener, but wound up deciding his work is too dated for my tastes, which is why I didn't recommend him.)

I guess I don't know what you mean be dated, the word orientalism can be interpreted in multiple ways. It felt dated because the author wrote it in 1975?

I thought the book treated Japanese society very well and explained differences in the culture of Europeans in the 1600's. The main character comes to appreciate many characteristics of Japanese culture. I think that Clavelle has a great respect for Asian cultures and this is part of the reason he has written so much about them.

IMO Christianity and European attitudes take more abuse in the book than any Japanese practices.

Maybe my opinion is skewed though because I loved the book.

[McCloskey]

I guess I don't know what you mean be dated, the word orientalism can be interpreted in multiple ways. It felt dated because the author wrote it in 1975?

I thought the book treated Japanese society very well and explained differences in the culture of Europeans in the 1600's. The main character comes to appreciate many characteristics of Japanese culture. I think that Clavelle has a great respect for Asian cultures and this is part of the reason he has written so much about them.

IMO Christianity and European attitudes take more abuse in the book than any Japanese practices.

Agreed.

Koolkat - I think you should stick with it a bit longer. Afterall you can't really get a feel for a 1200+ page book in just 20 pages. I think too the book starts with the main character feeling superior and arrogant and the actions of the first Japanese extreme on purpose so that the reader gains an appreciation of the culture along with the Protagonist. Some of the characters might be a bit stereotypical (some of the Dutch Sailors as well as some Samurai) but thats almost unavoidable in most historical fiction. The author has a high respect for Japanese society of the era and I think if you stick with it your liberal sensibilities will be appeased!

[McCloskey]

Double Post

[Liadin]

Okay then, maybe I'll pick it back up. I don't suppose either of you has read any early Michener to compare it to?

I guess I don't know what you mean be dated, the word orientalism can be interpreted in multiple ways. It felt dated because the author wrote it in 1975?

I wasn't aware of when it was written, but I do think the trope of basing a book around a white man exploring some Asian country is a bit dated--you won't see very many books with that premise being published today. And by Orientalism, in this case I meant the exotic aspects of oriental culture being played up for drama and shock value: the naked gardener, the servile woman and so on. I couldn't help wondering if a Magical Negro (or, er, Japanese) was right around the corner.

But, as McCloskey said, it was only 20 pages.

[wolverine]

Okay then, maybe I'll pick it back up. I don't suppose either of you has read any early Michener to compare it to?

I wasn't aware of when it was written, but I do think the trope of basing a book around a white man exploring some Asian country is a bit dated--you won't see very many books with that premise being published today. And by Orientalism, in this case I meant the exotic aspects of oriental culture being played up for drama and shock value: the naked gardener, the servile woman and so on. I couldn't help wondering if a Magical Negro (or, er, Japanese) was right around the corner.

But, as McCloskey said, it was only 20 pages.

Have not read any Michener. I think exotic aspects are definitely used for some shock in the book, there is supposed to be some culture shock for the Europeans, I don't think it is a main theme though. Blackthorne is often appalled/puzzled by some of the cultural differences, but the book is driven by Blackthorne trying to stay alive and Toranaga attempting to retain his power.

[Gabriele]

If you want some more action stuff a la Cornwell and Scarrow, try Ben Kane (The Road to Rome trilogy, third book out in Sept.), Douglas Jackson (Caligula, Claudius, now also Hero of Rome) and Harry Sidebottom (Warrior of Rome trilogy, completed) - they've all written about kickass Romans. :)

Stephen Lawhead has written a bunch of historical novels about King Arthur, Robin Hood, Patrick of Ireland .... it's a bit of hit an miss with him; the books can get somewhat slow-paced; same goes for Jack Whyte's 9 book series about Arthur, Merlin, Uther and the whole bunch albeit his plus it to put them in a Romano-British historical context. Though Cornwell's Warlord trilogy will always be my favourite take of Arthur,

David Gemmell's Troy trilogy. Definitely.

[Lord Mord]

I've not read much historical fiction. I mean, the main works that come to mind are TC Boyle's, with The Road to Wellville, The Inner Circle, and The Women -- but I'd recommend all three. They each revolve around historical figures: John Harvey Kellogg, Alfred Kinsey, and Frank Lloyd Wright respectively.

[Lord Mord]

DP

[pfitz]

If you want some more action stuff a la Cornwell and Scarrow, try Ben Kane (The Road to Rome trilogy, third book out in Sept.), Douglas Jackson (Caligula, Claudius, now also Hero of Rome) and Harry Sidebottom (Warrior of Rome trilogy, completed) - they've all written about kickass Romans. :)

Stephen Lawhead has written a bunch of historical novels about King Arthur, Robin Hood, Patrick of Ireland .... it's a bit of hit an miss with him; the books can get somewhat slow-paced; same goes for Jack Whyte's 9 book series about Arthur, Merlin, Uther and the whole bunch albeit his plus it to put them in a Romano-British historical context. Though Cornwell's Warlord trilogy will always be my favourite take of Arthur,

David Gemmell's Troy trilogy. Definitely.

I agree totally Gabriele, Lawhead has some interesting ideas but for some reason I sometimes struggle to get through his books and the Cornwell series is also my favorite take on Arthur. I’m a huge fan of Gemmell, it’s a pity he died before he finished the last in the Troy series, The Lion of Macedon and to a lesser extent it’s sequel Dark Prince are also almost straight historical fiction

:pimp:

[SpaceCoyote]

Although not strictly historical fiction (actually alternate history) Kim Stanley Robinson's "The Years of Rice and Salt" is without question one of the best books I've ever read. The conceit is that the Black Plague wipes out 99% of Europe's population, creating a world where China, India, and the Islamic caliphates become the major powers. It follows a loose structure common to Mitchner (novella sized segments focusing on characters in various time frames, thus spanning some 600 years), but with a depth of scope that is astonishing. It's dense, but for someone who loves history, fascinating.

Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but for something a bit pulpy and lighter, Ken Follett's "Pillars of the Earth" is great. Whatever flaws it has are kind of made irrelevant by the fact that its just so damned FUN to read.

[wolverine]

If you want some more action stuff a la Cornwell and Scarrow, try Ben Kane (The Road to Rome trilogy, third book out in Sept.), Douglas Jackson (Caligula, Claudius, now also Hero of Rome) and Harry Sidebottom (Warrior of Rome trilogy, completed) - they've all written about kickass Romans. :)

Stephen Lawhead has written a bunch of historical novels about King Arthur, Robin Hood, Patrick of Ireland .... it's a bit of hit an miss with him; the books can get somewhat slow-paced; same goes for Jack Whyte's 9 book series about Arthur, Merlin, Uther and the whole bunch albeit his plus it to put them in a Romano-British historical context. Though Cornwell's Warlord trilogy will always be my favourite take of Arthur,

David Gemmell's Troy trilogy. Definitely.

Does Lawhead write some books that don't suck? I read Byzantium by him and was really turned off by the irrational actions of shallow anachronistic characters. This one book seemed to try to be a fantasy touching on many cultures with a very implausible huge adventure. It was a somewhat entertaining book but really turned me off to the author.