The Judging Eye VIII (spoilers)

[Happy Ent]

Didn't Achamian only get Cnaiur's version of the Dunyain and Kellhus though? He doesn't know anything about the confrontation between Kellhus and Moenghus. Achamian doesn't know that Kellhus might have transformed into something different from a Dunyain. With this in mind, he is going to see everything that Kellhus does as false, including the Great Ordeal.

Or am I misremembering?

No, you’re right. Basically, Acka thinks of Kellhus as Kellhus thinks of Moe.

[Madness]

Ah, but that's where I fundamentally disagree. All belief (or lackthereof) may be ultimately unprovable and thus equally plausible, but that does not mean that it's fundamentally equal. Ignorant beliefs can have value over more reasoned beliefs simply because of the side effects they cause. And similarly, reasoned beliefs can be more or less valuable based on the side effects they cause. Ultimately that value judgment is entirely subjective, but that doesn't mean it's something that can't be agreed upon or worked towards.

I would argue that everything human can be reduced, though I dislike connotations of the word, to a different neural configuration. I'm not arguing subjective value, which seems to be determined by nothing more than the weight of belief, but the fact that every conceptual cognitive structure is ultimately just a different way of maximizing or minimizing human potential. The only thing different from a society who sacrifices babies from ours is our conceived configuration of the plastic brain structure.

Humanity is ugly. Ignorant beliefs and memes lost out to things like science-fueled fascism and philosophy-fueled communism, and both of those were responsible for more death and destruction than religion could remotely put a finger on in the last 100 years. Ultimately the problem is that humans are human. We are somewhat wired for belief and fanaticism, we are wired for tribal them vs. us monkeysphere crap, and we are gullible and prone to violence and sex.

The only way to stop that is to stop being human. Anything else - including the facade of being a science-ruled meritocracy - is just deluding yourself. It's cruelty and capriciousness with just another system to justify and rationalize your actions.

Science and intelligence might make a person better, and they might make certain parts of the world better, but at the end of the day they can't solve the problem of humans.

I agree the problem is humans, and specifically how we individually handle being a human. So our individual psychologies. I'm also not arguing that science and technology is going to make it better. In fact, I believe that some of the best things science and technology have done is proved that we are capable of so much more without it. If anyone knows the quote, tell me who it's by, cause I can't remember where I read it but I always liked "the mind is the only technology." We can change our neural configurations natural, drastically restructure our human organization, with no biological limits beyond 8 to 12 weeks.

However, we're coming into a generation of people raised on social media, completely ignorant by both our standards, who will have choices like augmenting themselves with technology, rewiring their brains for confidence, etc instead of the relatively crude atheistic butchery we've been practicing so far. Yeah, I think all of human history will seem better against the coming mother of all violent and cruel human periods.

[Happy Ent]

What do you mean, it's going to get ugly? Humanity is ugly. Ignorant beliefs and memes lost out to things like science-fueled fascism and philosophy-fueled communism, and both of those were responsible for more death and destruction than religion could remotely put a finger on in the last 100 years.

I don’t think that is true. It’s just a 100 million or so, which is close to nothing. Pinker had a brief overview on the Edge (here) .

But I’m happy to convinced of the opposite, it’s not a point that I’m much invested in. (My beef is with authoritarianism, not with religion, so Fascism and Communism are fair game to me.) If you can provide a link to convince me, I’m happy. (Let’s not make this thread drift into a discussion of reality. It’s the Literature board, not GenChat.)

[aimlessgun]

Madness, that's rather pessimistic. But hey, we're all just an illusion of our 3 pound brain in a determinist universe, so don't worry about it :thumbsup:

GB, it's funny, the characters really are quite interesting and I like talking about them, but reading through the books, especially plowing through them in sequence in a week, the reactionary feelings of frustration and disappointment and horror were more prevalent :)

[Madness]

I hear ya, Ent.

Razor, or anyone else for that matter, I'm in critical need of intellectual conversation because university doesn't seem to be the place to find it. I'm down to continue this or any other debate in another setting.

Btw, communism or facism, and most isms for that matter, are memes: it's a crazy discipline.

Lol, aimless, I'm probably the most pessimistic optimist you'll meet. Conversely, I try and propogate the idea that first, maybe, we should try and understand what the human body/mind is capable of in it's natural state before we go a fucking around in the endless interest of "progress."

But hey, shifting the mindset and desires of a global society is pretty damn complex. As I said, I never want to be a cowboy. We'll actually start having Dunyain in the world at that rate, if people just decide to be out for themselves in futureland.

Back to Earwa.

[Kalbear]

I don’t think that is true. It’s just a 100 million or so, which is close to nothing. Pinker had a brief overview on the Edge (here) .

Close to nothing compared to what in the last 100 years?

Also, I hate that he simply reduces it to how many people died in wars or were killed in homicides. I'm not talking about wars specifically, and homicides is a poor benchmark anyway. Now, a reasonable other statement is that we don't know very well how many people were routinely killed without mentioning it, and we don't have great estimates for things like the North American apocalypse or the like. However, looking at things like WW2, the purges in China, Cambodia, Laos, the ethnic cleansing in Rwanda and Serbia...he completely ignores these points as they aren't wars and they aren't homicide rates.

We can change our neural configurations natural, drastically restructure our human organization, with no biological limits beyond 8 to 12 weeks.

However, we're coming into a generation of people raised on social media, completely ignorant by both our standards, who will have choices like augmenting themselves with technology, rewiring their brains for confidence, etc instead of the relatively crude atheistic butchery we've been practicing so far. Yeah, I think all of human history will seem better against the coming mother of all violent and cruel human periods.

See, I see it as a totally different vibe. I think in general people would be happier (and more likely) to rewire their brains to be happy, selfish and insular. Social media will simply make them hang out with tribes they like more. No need to be violent when you can play violent games instead.

Humans have that monkeysphere, and the more that people are exposed to that monkeysphere the harder it is to dehumanize those who are like them. We see this all the time. I hope globalization will fix more issues than it raises, but ultimately I don't think social media and consumerism is any worse or better than fascism, imperialist democracy, capitalism or christianity in curbing the violent nature of humans.

[aimlessgun]

Humans have that monkeysphere, and the more that people are exposed to that monkeysphere the harder it is to dehumanize those who are like them. We see this all the time. I hope globalization will fix more issues than it raises, but ultimately I don't think social media and consumerism is any worse or better than fascism, imperialist democracy, capitalism or christianity in curbing the violent nature of humans.

I think it would be interesting if Bakker tackled a renaissance/sci-revolution in the upcoming books and if he stuck to the crapsackiness of the world (which I'm sure he would). In the real world those changes in mindset were very slow (and people remained overwhelmingly religious for hundreds more years), but the shift towards investigating the world in a rational manner would be fun to see in Earwa.

Also, didn't someone bring up a while back that Achamian may have been butt-fucking Proyas when the latter was his student?

Forgot to comment on this one, and my comment is...Wow!

[Nerdanel]

I think Kellhus killed Moënghus (or rather, his remote controlled mind puppet) because a Dûnyain is another Dûnyain's natural enemy. They can only get along in a strict hierarchy like in Ishuäl. The Consult doesn't really come into it.

So Moënghus wants total control over his surroundings and Kellhus also wants total control over his surroundings. Since the surroundings in question are essentially the entire world, the problem is obvious. The two were destined to clash, something the Pragmas must have known when they sent Kellhus away beyond their control.

Since both Kellhus and Moënghus are full-blood Dûnyain, they both know that the other will try to get rid of them at some point and, being a full-blood Dûnyain, might well succeed unless they get rid of them first. And both know that the other knows. Because of this, the conflict is bound to occur pretty much right away.

The only way this could be resolved without one or the other (or both) dying is for one to fake his death, after which the fake dead one is free to control the world as long as he doesn't reveal himself and the "winner" is free to think he controls the world. I think Moënghus had planned the whole thing even before he sent for Kellhus.

[aimlessgun]

The only way this could be resolved without one or the other (or both) dying is for one to fake his death, after which the fake dead one is free to control the world as long as he doesn't reveal himself and the "winner" is free to think he controls the world. I think Moënghus had planned the whole thing even before he sent for Kellhus.

Meonghus = Second foundation.

A circle has no end. Meonghus is in Momemn. Wait, no, he's in the ruin of Sauglish and by looking the in the library Drublin Mischamian is going to ferret out his presence under the manipulation of the Clermule!

[Madness]

See, I see it as a totally different vibe. I think in general people would be happier (and more likely) to rewire their brains to be happy, selfish and insular. Social media will simply make them hang out with tribes they like more. No need to be violent when you can play violent games instead.

Humans have that monkeysphere, and the more that people are exposed to that monkeysphere the harder it is to dehumanize those who are like them. I hope globalization will fix more issues than it raises, but ultimately I don't think social media and consumerism is any worse or better than fascism, imperialist democracy, capitalism or christianity in curbing the violent nature of humans.

I'm thinking, Razor, we're discussing the different sides of the same coin. All of the above is fitting context to the meaning I was trying to impart. The confusion, perhaps, is that I'm also trying to say that those same mechanisms can be used for moral compass "good" or "evil."

To reorient a little from the Dunyain, I think, in the story we know so far, the two most dangerous people to Kellhus are Inhiralatas (Am I spelling that right?) and Mimira.

I'm of the camp that Mimira never saw Kellhus with the Judging Eye. However, I do believe that Kellhus remains Dunyain, except with real world variables at his disposal rather then the circumstantial vacuum the Dunyain proper have trapped themselves in. I figure he's probably setting up for a "Moenghus" style plan.

Inhiralatas, likely, simply sees the truth of all Kellhus' lies in his father's face and, thus, Kellhus had to mindfuck him Dunyain style and lock him away.

[Curethan]

Also, didn't someone bring up a while back that Achamian may have been butt-fucking Proyas when the latter was his student?

I think it was more along the lines that Akka is an implied peadophile because he quite openly talks about loving his students and gets all teary over them. I think it was during some discussion on Bakker being a SEXIST BASTARD, wherein the righteous and the deliberately ridiculous were looking for extra cowpats to throw. On a reread atm (its only my second - shuddup) and I think its fairly safe to say this is BS. The narrative is trying to demonstrate that Akka really cares about teaching properly and is prone to emotional investment.

@ Madness. I think you might be onto something with Inrialatus. I speculate that Kellhus' 'fractal vision' (i.e. the ability as it exists before the neuropin face training etc) is one of the dunyain 'capacities' that the worldborn pseudo-dunyain children lack. Add that to the fact Kellhus doesn't have the time or perhaps inclination to train his children and we end up with the most gifted of them locked up with a drum full of lube and a stack of PlayInchi mags.

[Rhadamanth]

I always figured the reason Dunyain kids went through the whole face-off thing is because the adults didn't show any emotion for them to read and it made them better at reading and reproducing all the expressions.

[Curethan]

You are you referring to as "pseudo-Dunyain?" Kayutas, Thelopia, and Maithanet at least all have a great ability to read faces even if they cannot do it to the degree that Kellhus can.

Reading faces is one thing, Kellhus takes it to another level though don't you think? There's definiately an extrahuman element to his perceptions in my inference. I tend to think this is one of the things the dunyain breed for and that perhaps it's a legacy of the Anasurimbor's nonman heritage. Psuedo-dunyain is perhaps a bad term and I'm being a bit specific in how I think it works, but I think you catch my general meaning. ;)

[Curethan]

That's true, Triskele. Actually, that leads me to a question. I'm just up to the part in TCTCB where Akka attends Maithanet's declaration of holy war and he is recognized as a sorcerer by Maithanet, which leads Akka to the conclusion that he is one of the few. Is this actually confirmed at any point, or is it a product of Maithanet's face reading?

[anor277]

I'm realizing now that I've never had that question answered. As far as I know Maithanet has not learned any sorcery from Kellhus. You don't need to be one of the Few to have the face-reading ability as Kayutus reads faces but doesn't spit light. But how did Maithanet know Akka? We know from the text that Akka concludes that he is one of the few, but perhaps he knew from some other means. Maybe something tipped him off that he was Mandate? I don't know. Opinions welcomed.

CAUTION: spoilers ahead if you haven't read the first trilogy!!!!

That's answered in the first novel. "Only the few can see the few". Maithanet is a potential sorceror (given his heritage); therefore he can see the distortion in the "onta" (whatever that is) that betokens a sorceror; therefore he can recognize Achamian. When Achamian challenges Inrau on that point (i.e. is Maithanet a Consult mole?), Inrau replies that historically some of the greatest of Shriahs had had the ability to perceive the onta (i.e they were potential sorcerors also) but chose not to practise sorcery (Inrau had made that same choice as well, mind you he had stopped practising sorcery rather than forswearing it). In fact, somwhere, when Achamian recounts his childhood, he recalls that he (A), had the ability to see the onta, and this was of course before he received his sorcerous training (and damnation).

[aimlessgun]

Maybe they held off on Maitha sorcery because they weren't totally secure, and didn't want to PO people unecessarily by making the Shriah a sorcerer.

As for Maitha being a sorcerer based on heritage, is there anything that says the few are more likely to produce few? You'd think the 3S schools would have reacted to such instead of continually drawing recruits by scavenging around for gifted kids.

[aimlessgun]

To reorient a little from the Dunyain, I think, in the story we know so far, the two most dangerous people to Kellhus are Inhiralatas (Am I spelling that right?) and Mimira.

Well, Kellhus wouldn't necessarily show up as 'damned' under TJE, for all we know Akka's 'sin' isn't sorcery at all.

Inhiralatas...dunno, it feels like Kellhus would have found a way to kill him if he thought he was a real threat. I don't see him pulling a Cnauir again.

[anor277]

I wanted to edit my last contribution, but I'll post it in a new box here.

Just in support of my point, when Kellhus assumed control of the crusade TWP, he provoked Achamian (and Xinemus) by his declaration that he could see Achamian's difference from other men (his damnation if you like). Again, this relates to his ability to see the onta, not his superb skill at reading faces.

Of course Achamian couldn't see the other way (i.e. that Kellhus was a potential sorceror), that's why he had to go to elaborate lengths and the Wathi doll to test Kellhus' ability.

As for Maitha being a sorcerer based on heritage, is there anything that says the few are more likely to produce few? You'd think the 3S schools would have reacted to such instead of continually drawing recruits by scavenging around for gifted kids.

There is nothing to suggest that a sorceror is likely to father another sorceror; perhaps the only paternal relationship we have so far is Kellhus and Serwa. (Mandate members were of course forbidden to marry, and maybe the other Schools had similar rules). Life was apparently cheap enough in the Three Seas for the Schools to rely on natural talents.

[nerd123]

It occurs to me that in general Maith’s motivations are pretty opaque. Presumably, he knew Moe was his Daddy and ordered the Holy War because Pappa said so, but does he really not have any suspicions about what happened to Moe? Could he hide them from Kellhuss if he did? Might he be willing to work with Consult for revenge?

Unless he turns out to have ulterior designs I’m going to say that he’s a big disappointment, since even a 7-year old half-Dunyain is apparently able to run circles around him. He was built up so much in the earlier books, but hasn’t appeared to do much other than go with the flow.

[Madness]

I have two main points I feel could add to this conversation, both from the old Author Q&A threads on Three Seas.

Regarding the Few and Schools trying to select based on breeding rather than aptitude. Bakker wrote that the ability of the Few is more determined by capacity for memory and cognition. I guess, only the Dunyain could be thinking in such a way to notice the cause and effect for such selection.

As for Maithanet, Bakker wrote that he had invented a whole back story for Maithanet, part of which he had wanted to include in PON - including but not limited to Moenghus sun tanning his son to hide his Norsorai heritage, having him walk untouched from heathen deserts for greater Inrithi Faith effect.

Maithanet is always a fun one to speculate. I always assumed that Moenghus would use a variation of Dunyain training to hone Maithanet as much as possible. Dunyain, Moenghus and Kellhus anyway, don't seem wasteful outside Ishual's walls. Everyone is a tool, no matter what.

My questions would be, what does Maithanet actually know? Did Moenghus tell him of the plans to defeat the Consult? Does Maithanet know of the particulars of Kellhus' and their father's conversation, or perhaps just assumes that Kellhus has assumed the mantle? Do they share information as natural brothers might? Does Maithanet know of or still maintain his father's Cishaurim network? Does Maithanet even know what the Dunyain are or how he is the man he is? Maybe, Moenghus, conversely, kept Maithanet completely in the dark and Maithanet just has the faith everyone else has in Kellhus?

... I'll think of more.