kungtotte Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 What the hell is going on in this thread. I am perpetuating a rape culture by holding the door open for women? Do I negate this by holding the door for anyone or should I just kill myself now to avoid further complications? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raids Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Sorry Bale, it's not personal. You just actually *don't* know what it us and were arguing that it should be abolished. I'd call anybody out for that. I don't get personally offended when you know something about tax accounting or the many uses of bleach that I don't know, and you're usually not particularly gentle about it either, LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercenaryChef Posted February 20, 2011 Author Share Posted February 20, 2011 <headdesk>You know what? You go on being a White Knight. If it makes you feel good and superior because you are Doing The Right Thing. I'll just keep taking advantage of poor bastards like you who leave the door open (literally and figuratively) for me to exploit your male weakness towards females. It tastes delicious.what? what sort of weakness does man who opens doors possess? i think you are taking this whole thing a bit too personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balefont Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Bale, I don't agree with everything you've posted in this thread, but I applaud your consistency of view.Thank you, Jon. FTR, I love men and don't lie awake at night over these issues. I, do, however, choose to stand up for myself whenever the need arises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantabile Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Cantible, I think it's time you call your female feminist friend and have another conversation.About which point? I'm in agreement that the door-holding custom is sexist, and if there were a magic red button to press to eliminate it from every culture on Earth I would do so in a heartbeat. But since there is no such button why don't we just wait for the custom to die a natural death, which it inevitably will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raids Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 And WTF? This is news to guys, really??? What rock has everyone been living under? Nobody's heard of passive sexism before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balefont Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 what? what sort of weakness does man who opens doors possess? i think you are taking this whole thing a bit too personal.A man or woman who holds doors for anyone is a wonderful, kind person who is considerate of their fellow human being. A man who holds a door for a woman just because she is a woman is contributing to a sexist point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercenaryChef Posted February 20, 2011 Author Share Posted February 20, 2011 A man or woman who holds doors for anyone is a wonderful, kind person who is considerate of their fellow human being. A man who holds a door for a woman because she is a woman is contributing to a sexist point of view.that does not answer my question.what is the proposed exploitable weakness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balefont Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Sorry Bale, it's not personal. You just actually *don't* know what it us and were arguing that it should be abolished. I'd call anybody out for that. I don't get personally offended when you know something about tax accounting or the many uses of bleach that I don't know, and you're usually not particularly gentle about it either, LOL.;)But did you at least take my meaning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edda van Heefmstra Ruston Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I have to ask why you said "especially" women in that last sentence. That seems like sexism to me in a way as well: if you question my ability to say how someone should engage in feminism, their gender should be beside the point. A male feminist is equally as valid as a female one.I said that because there is a very long history of women being told what to do, what to think (or whether to think), and how to behave by men. Feminism was, at its root, one of the way for women to express themselves and their perception of the world, and to examine how we exist in it, often directed in the search for equality, or why we are not treated equally. For you to come in and tell a man how to be a feminist is ridiculous enough*, but to engage in exactly that behaviour which feminism has been fighting, and in its name, is even more so.*Unless he's, I don't know, saying that feminism should be decided by men because women can't think for themselves, or something equally outrageous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kungtotte Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 A man or woman who holds doors for anyone is a wonderful, kind person who is considerate of their fellow human being. A man who holds a door for a woman just because she is a woman is contributing to a sexist point of view.How do you know which?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 A "female's perspective"? Terms like that reinforce gender inequality by creating distinction of perception based upon gender. It's like when someone says, "Hey, I want a guy's point of view on something..." Each human being has such radically different perspectives that such terms are trivial. It might be easier to compartamentalize the world by saying "male's perspective" or "female's perspective" but those terms are just creating more distinctions based on gender.I've come to the conclusion that, with very few exceptions, not being a white man comes with things that cannot be fully understood without first hand experience. We simply do not have the full picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nas! Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I've encountered quite a few people that feel that the door holding custom is sexist towards men, not women, and it's certainly a point that can be argued. Holding the door open for them is taking on a subservient role, placing the woman above the man, with the man devoting his consideration towards her. It may very well be that men should be pissed off by this custom for being unfair to them, rather than women getting angry about it.I would not enjoy seeing someone attempt to argue this at all.Perhaps, though, we could agree that the custom is degrading for all the sexes involved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercenaryChef Posted February 20, 2011 Author Share Posted February 20, 2011 How do you know which?!she cannot know. that is the problem. if you open a door for balefont she assumes it is because she is a woman and you think she is weak. you may open the door for all people but she is the only one there. that complicates everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edda van Heefmstra Ruston Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I've come to the conclusion that, with very few exceptions, not being a white man comes with things that cannot be fully understood without first hand experience. We simply do not have the full picture.That's pretty much it. We have experience in our own perceptions. I will never, ever fully understand racism* except second-hand, because I am a white person, with all of the privilege that entails. Just like I won't ever really experience or understand transphobia, because I was born into a body that reflects my gender. I can study it all I want, and join in the fight for equality, but I wouldn't dream of telling a transgendered person that they're fighting transphobia incorrectly.*Yes, I'm sure there are a few places in the world where white people are systemically disadvantaged, but I am exceedingly unlikely to end up there. In my various stays in various countries, even when "white" people (as defined in the US) were the minority, I was granted unearned benefits for being melanin-challenged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantabile Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I've come to the conclusion that, with very few exceptions, not being a white man comes with things that cannot be fully understood without first hand experience. We simply do not have the full picture.I don't agree with this. While it certainly helps to be born into whatever group it is, there's no reason one cannot understand their perspective regardless. There are specialists in sexism that are male, and professors in racism and social inequality that are white. One doesn't have to experience these topics first hand to have a large sum of knowledge and understanding of them, though it helps.I would not enjoy seeing someone attempt to argue this at all.Perhaps, though, we could agree that the custom is degrading for all the sexes involved?Certainly. It's degrading for everyone involved, and a pointless custom. I hope it dies sooner than later, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.she cannot know. that is the problem. if you open a door for balefont she assumes it is because she is a woman and you think she is weak. you may open the door for all people but she is the only one there. that complicates everything.Excellent point, and something I've seen too. It's pretty screwed up to be resentful towards someone for opening the door for you when you have no idea why they did it, and assumptions just make asses out of most of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balefont Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 that does not answer my question.what is the proposed exploitable weakness?I think you guys are taking this too personally. We're not saying that all men who hold doors for women are actually intentionally contributing to the oppression and violence against women. The point is, in a society that promotes this type of behavior - putting women on a pedestal (holding doors for them to refusing to wrestle them in a tournament) because they are women - is a society that gives men the power to give this "protection" and "respect" to women and thus the power to take it away at any time. So, a man who asserts - regardless of these facts or a man who denies this imbalance exists - that he's gonna keep on with this mindset and behavior regardless of the woman's wishes, is a man who is now in the position to be exploited by the woman.Take, for example, wrestling: If a guy does have the balls to test himself against a female competitor but chooses to "go easy on her because she is a girl after all", she is a position to take advantage of the situation and win the match. He might have been able to beat her but neither of them will ever know. She progresses in the tournament and he is out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantabile Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 As for the custom being sexist to males and not women, well, honestly that's how I once felt. I found it ridiculous that society expected of me to humble myself and make myself subservient to someone entirely because I was a male and they were a female. Overall women get the shorter end of the stick and suffer far more sexism than men ever will, of course, but the custom is still degrading to men. If you want to be polite to someone then be polite to them for who they are, not because of which type of genitalia they have between their legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raids Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I wish I was on my computer so I could link or paste Marilyn Frye's birdcage analogy. If anyone really does want to read what is probably the best-known discussion of door holding by an academic feminist, Google it. I saw a few sites where it appears in full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Raids, next time you are in Texas, I think you should totally let men open the door for you ... and then open the door next to that one by yourself and use it instead.Then come back and tell us what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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