Boy Refuses to Wrestle Girl

[Balefont]

Negatory. Me opening a door for my wife, standing when she sits down, and treating her with respect does the exact opposite of promoting a rape culture. I promotes a culture of mutual respect and reverence towards our most import resource as a species, our mothers.

Again, you are putting us on a pedestal that you are in control of ripping out from under us at any time. Therefore, you are promoting rape culture as there are men who would seek to take advantage of this power imbalance. Just because you wouldn't and hopefully your son wouldn't does not mean there isn't a significant portion of the male part of society who would.

I really don't know why this is so difficult to grasp.

[Balefont]

what in the fuck?

opening a door for a woman promotes violence against women? a

Yes, if you are doing it merely for the sake that she is a woman. It's one little part of the iceberg.

does offering up my seat on the train to the elderly promote raping and beating of citizens in their twilight years?

Only if you wouldn't do the same for an elderly man.

does standing aside on a sidewalk to allow a person in a wheelchair by promote sodomizing the disabled?

Now you're being a pest and I may be forced to kick your ass. :P

what is so damning to society about being respectful?

Nothing, as long as it is mutual and equal respect rather than for the sake that women need extra support and respect.

[peterbound]

Again, you are putting as on a pedestal that you are in control of ripping out from under us at any time. Therefore, you are promoting rape culture as there are men who would seek to take advantage of this power imbalance. Just because you wouldn't and hopefully your son wouldn't does not men there isn't a significant portion of the male part of society who would.

I really don't know why this is so difficult to grasp.

Nor do i see why it is so difficult to grasp that my gesture of respect in no way diminishes your control.

The positive aspects of gender roles don't play into rape, it's the negative ones. My reverence to women is in no way a negative one. I don't expect females to be submissive or below me, nor do these actions promote those values.

[MercenaryChef]

balefont,

congrats on your hat trick!

i played in a coed indoor soccer team in oregon. the league was filled with the women from portland state univerity. this team was routinely one of the best in the country. these women were awesome. i often got left standing like a statue on defense as they blew past me. i looked at them as soccer players not women playing soccer.

but, again i point out that a child athlete is not likely to be able to make such a differentiation. we need to teach our kids from a younger age to understand this. when i was a 17 year old suddenly faced with the possibility of wrestling the czech girl i was not prepared for it. never in my life had it ever been even a possibility. luckily we live in a time in which it is more likely and each generation will be better prepared should the adults in their lives help them along.

[Commodore]

Would you consider it more acceptable to hit a physically weak man than an athletic woman given an identical situation?

Hell no. Hit away.

[Merentha]

Nor do i see why it is so difficult to grasp that my gesture of respect in no way diminishes your control.

The woman in the OP was denied a competitive bout with someone, which she wanted to participate in, because he was "respecting" her. How is that not denying her control?

What, exactly, are the positive aspects of gender roles? What makes them positive, what differentiates them from what you think are negative, and what keeps them from being used to, as in the case of the OP, deny women access to things allowed men?

[Lady Luffa]

Again, you are putting as on a pedestal that you are in control of ripping out from under us at any time. Therefore, you are promoting rape culture as there are men who would seek to take advantage of this power imbalance. Just because you wouldn't and hopefully your son wouldn't does not men there isn't a significant portion of the male part of society who would.

I really don't know why this is so difficult to grasp.

I agree. If you're really for equal rights you should hold open that door for any person not just a person of a certain gender.

The same with the not hitting thing, shouldn't we learn our children not to hit people, not just women? Or perhaps to only hit in self defence?

And another point, what about men that are abused by their female partners, do they have a right to defend themselves or should they just take it? I believe that part of why it's still a taboo for men to talk about that kind of abuse it because the women is suposed to be the weaker sex, not the abuser.

[naz]

Interesting. Rather than withhold from opening doors open for women, how about you just hold the door open for everyone? Rather than have some fixed rule that you give up your seat on the bus exclusively for women, or for the elderly, why not just give up your seat for someone who looks they could use a seat more than you? I do it all the time.

Treating people equally doesn't mean you round down and treat everyone like shit. Just round up and treat everyone the way you would otherwise treat women, the elderly, etc. That's actually what's lacking in the world. General respect for anyone and everyone.

eta: Yeah, what Lady Lufa said. :)

[Underfoot]

Interesting. Rather than withhold from opening doors open for women, how about you just hold the door open for everyone? Rather than have some fixed rule that you give up your seat on the bus exclusively for women, or for the elderly, why not just give up your seat for someone who looks they could use a seat more than you? I do it all the time.

Treating people equally doesn't mean you round down and treat everyone like shit. Just round up and treat everyone the way you would otherwise treat women, the elderly, etc. That's actually what's lacking in the world. General respect for anyone and everyone.

eta: Yeah, what Lady Lufa said. :)

This, and what Lady Lufa said. Why can't society just be polite to everyone?

[peterbound]

The woman in the OP was denied a competitive bout with someone, which she wanted to participate in, because he was "respecting" her. How is that not denying her control?

What, exactly, are the positive aspects of gender roles? What makes them positive, what differentiates them from what you think are negative, and what keeps them from being used to, as in the case of the OP, deny women access to things allowed men?

Hm, in terms of the op i do agree that the control, or ability to perform was taken away from her. On the flip side of that though, she won, so that's a plus.

In my view of female respect the boy in question would have wrestled her and having won or lost he would have opened the door for her on the way out.

I'm going to formulate a better answer for the gender role question, as it may require it's own thread. I'm going to try to stay on topic. Methinks we have a troll in our midsts that is attempting to derail the convo.

[MercenaryChef]

all i know is i have opened my last fucking door.

[Balefont]

balefont,

congrats on your hat trick!

Thanks. :-)

i played in a coed indoor soccer team in oregon. the league was filled with the women from portland state univerity. this team was routinely one of the best in the country. these women were awesome. i often got left standing like a statue on defense as they blew past me. i looked at them as soccer players not women playing soccer.

Imagine if, throughout their training, everytime they were matched against boys, the boys let them win because they were girls. Imagine how much of their training would have been stunted without a fair experience palying with and against boys? (This isn't aimed at you personally but is for the thread.)

but, again i point out that a child athlete is not likely to be able to make such a differentiation. we need to teach our kids from a younger age to understand this. when i was a 17 year old suddenly faced with the possibility of wrestling the czech girl i was not prepared for it. never in my life had it ever been even a possibility. luckily we live in a time in which it is more likely and each generation will be better prepared should the adults in their lives help them along.

I totally agree. And it starts with the parents and coaches, as kair said. And it starts with fathers teaching their sons to respect people and not single out women as an object of additional respect.

[Commodore]

"Showing respect", in this case, means denying her the right to a competitive sport that she wants to do. Its not respectful, its putting women in a separate, patronized category.

Males of any mammal species have a biological desire to screw just about anything that moves. Men are generally more capable of overpowering a woman than another man, and are often more inclined to do so for sexual reasons. So society instills standards of behavior that try and control these impulses. Because women are weaker physically and are more often targets of male aggressive impulses, we as men are told to treat them delicately.

And as you say, this has negative consequences, being treated like a child or porcelin vase physically bleeds over into other areas. It's patronizing.

[peterbound]

all i know is i have opened my last fucking door.

Ha. I've traveled the fucking world. Been to both coasts of the US, and everywhere in between. All the while i have opened doors for women. I have never, ever been accosted for it. More often than not i'm thanked. I'll continue to do so.

I think we'll be safe.

[Balefont]

all i know is i have opened my last fucking door.

hahahaah GOOD! My friend and colleague often get into stand offs with men in the elevator who insist we get out first even if we're at the back of the elevator and they are at the front. It's preposterous. One time, the stand off was so long the doors started to close again.

It's amazing to me, though, how many men are so ready to jump in and defend their right to be respectful to women when the women are telling them thanks but no thanks, we'd feel more respected if you treated us the way you would each other.

[Shryke]

Not to distract from the .... fascinating sexism argument, but I gotta agree with like Commodore and the like earlier:

Maybe a young adolescent male just felt uncomfortable grappling with a girl. No one wants to grab or shove their face in the wrong area or pop a stiffy or the like. (And before you say "What about boys?!?" believe me because I've seen it, grabbing a man in the crotch during a wrestling match is something you will never live down either.)

I mean, these kids are, by definition, sexually and emotionally immature.

Should he have wrestled the girl? Yeah. But we should cut him some slack, he's a fucking kid.

[Balefont]

Ha. I've traveled the fucking world. Been to both coasts of the US, and everywhere in between. All the while i have opened doors for women. I have never, ever been accosted for it. More often than not i'm thanked. I'll continue to do so.

I think we'll be safe.

The next few times, try telling them that you're holding it open for them because you are a man and they are women. See how that goes.

[peterbound]

Not to distract from the .... fascinating sexism argument, but I gotta agree with like Commodore and the like earlier:

Maybe a young adolescent male just felt uncomfortable grappling with a girl. No one wants to grab or shove their face in the wrong area or pop a stiffy or the like. (And before you say "What about boys?!?" believe me because I've seen it, grabbing a man in the crotch during a wrestling match is something you will never live down either.)

I mean, these kids are, by definition, sexually and emotionally immature.

Should he have wrestled the girl? Yeah. But we should cut him some slack, he's a fucking kid.

Agreed. This is probably the best argument in the thread.

[Balefont]

Males of any mammal species have a biological desire to screw just about anything that moves. Men are generally more capable of overpowering a woman than another man, and are often more inclined to do so for sexual reasons. So society instills standards of behavior that try and control these impulses. Because women are weaker physically and are more often targets of male aggressive impulses, we as men are told to treat them delicately.

And as you say, this has negative consequences, being treated like a child or porcelin vase physically bleeds over into other areas. It's patronizing.

Thank you for your condescending attitude towards women. How's that working out for you in real life?

[Dornish]

Hm, in terms of the op i do agree that the control, or ability to perform was taken away from her. On the flip side of that though, she won, so that's a plus.

In my view of female respect the boy in question would have wrestled her and having won or lost he would have opened the door for her on the way out.

That's actually fairly reasonable. The thing is, I think that specifically holding the door for her points out that she is different and hurts her ability to fit in and may be unwanted and/or make her feel uncomfortable.