Robb and Jeyne ... was Sybell telling jaime the truth?

[Errant Bard]

3. Pre red wedding it is far from clear that the north will be defeated ... the war is not going brilliantly but it is far from over.

Stannis defeated, Lannisters and Tyrell alliance, Winterfell gone, reavers in the North... It was lost and many people actually did see that clearly:

In Roose's solar, before the news of Jeyne arrive:

"Someone must have the courage to say it," Ser Hosteen said. "The war is lost King Robb must be made to see that.[...] King Robb must make his peace with the Lannisters. He must put off his crown and bend the knee, little as he may like it."

Jaime Lannister upon hearing of Jeyne (before the Red Wedding):

Jaime felt almost sorry for Robb Stark. He won the war on the battlefield and lost it in a bedchamber, poor fool. "How does Lord Walder relish dining on trout in place of wolf?" he asked.

Robb:

"Battles," muttered Robb as he led her out beneath the trees. "I have won every battle, yet somehow I'm losing the war."

Catelyn:

Suddenly Catelyn was full of dread. "Wars need not be fought until the last drop of blood." Even she could hear the desperation in her voice. "You would not be the first king to bend the knee, nor even the first Stark."

[shooter]

I think this entire debate rests on whether or not The Blackfish knew about Jeyne's pregnancy. First of all, for all he knew, there was not a single Stark left (maybe other than Sansa) in the world to carry on with, yet he continued to fly the Stark banner over his castle. This could be one of two things:

1. An honor versus reality kind of thing where he felt the need to fight to the last drop of blood (this isn't out of the question) or

2. He knew of Jeynes pregnancy and knew that he might be protecting the future king of the north by defending the castle so still flew the Stark banner.

I think it is safe to assume that if he had known about the pregnancy then he would have known about the termination of the pregnancy. I don't think it is unreasonable to believe that Jeyne (who truly loved Robb) would be very upset that she had been deceived by her own mother into drinking Moon Tea. I believe it would have eventually leaked that Sybelle had given her daughter moon tea which would lead to the death of the (possible, if it was a boy) future King of the North. How would the Blackfish have handled handled Sybelle knowing that she had just killed the possible future King of the North? I'm pretty sure he would have hung her from the side of the castle, and possibly Jeyne too.

But again, this all rests on whether or not he knew about the pregnancy, which I think he did.

To go along with this I just found the way that supposed Jeyne was acting while in front of Jaime was kind of odd. It just seemed like she was acting like, I don't know, she was acting. "It was mine." "You had no right. Robb had it made for me. I loved him." It just seems weird, but maybe it is real.

[Mandurang]

I feel the need to point out that Robb Stark has a heir regardless of whether Jeyne Westerling, or Arnolf Karstark for that matter, is pregnant ("I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision"). It may be Jon Snow, or someone else, but there is an heir indeed, therefore even if the King is dead, the Stark direwolf should continue to fly from the castles of the Kingdom of the North and the Riverlands.

[shooter]

A king in the belly of Jeyne adds even more reason to keep it flying. I'm not convinced of it yet, but I just don't see how the Westerlings could have kept this whole ordeal a secret without The Blackfish finding out.

[tantoten1]

Let´s admit that the Blackfish gets the news from Edmure that Jon´s been named heir...How does he react to that? My Liege, right or wrong?...When facing Jamie he doesn´t seem too convinced about Jon´s merits (and he´s not bluffing, at that point he hasn´t yet talked to Edmure), So does he support Robb´s last will or do the best thing for....whatever, at this point I´m not sure what.

Not to mention the possible baby...If it´s being kept hidden somewhere waiting for the "right" moment (gotta be positive), Jon would be a threat (OK, another one)

So does he (along with the Captain of the Guard at Riverrun, and the Master at Arms??) head for the Wall to pledge his sword to Jon? or to stick him with it?

[Edward the Great]

What if the Great Other is a giant Santa Claus? If they kill a giant Santa Claus, wouldn't that be evidence enough that the Others have been completely defeated?

[AvengingAryaFan]

So does he (along with the Captain of the Guard at Riverrun, and the Master at Arms??) head for the Wall to pledge his sword to Jon? or to stick him with it?

Reread the Blackfish/Jaime scene; the BF gave a slip of facial expression that IMO indicates he was misleading Jaime w/r/t Jon; so I think he knows. (But no, no firm evidence, let alone a statement, of the BF's actual thoughts.) The BF seems always honorable and would pledge his sword to the heir, but he'd do so quietly - right now, being the successor to Robb mightn't be the healthiest occupation in Westeros.

Sybell was deceiving Jaime somehow; else why did she give "Jeyne" almost no opportunity to speak, but spoke for her almost every time? But though I strongly suspect she was lying, I'm less certain what she was lying about. She certainly had reason to be angry about the Lannister/Rolph Spicer/Black Walder decision not to warn her to keep Raynald away from the wedding; he took two crossbow quarrels and is missing and presumed dead. Not knowing the depth of their barbaric plan, and being on the receiving end in part, she has reason to feel they do not treat even their allies honorably, let alone their enemies.

[The Sand Snake]

Back to the original topic about whether the jeyne that Jaime talked to is really Jeyne leads me to one point which I think is actually key. What I find interesting is not the direwolf flying over Rivverun nor how the Blackfish treated Jaime but instead in Edmures faical expressions and how Jaime said he looked entirely too happy with himself. This could be put down to the Blackfish's escape but I think there is more there.

This is the same Edmure that was depressed for weeks about having to marry a girl he had never met who might or might not be attrative. Now this same person is spending the rest of his life at Casterly Rock as a prisioner and hes this happy? I think he has to know something.

[Edward the Great]

Back to the original topic about whether the jeyne that Jaime talked to is really Jeyne leads me to one point which I think is actually key. What I find interesting is not the direwolf flying over Rivverun nor how the Blackfish treated Jaime but instead in Edmures faical expressions and how Jaime said he looked entirely too happy with himself. This could be put down to the Blackfish's escape but I think there is more there.

This is the same Edmure that was depressed for weeks about having to marry a girl he had never met who might or might not be attrative. Now this same person is spending the rest of his life at Casterly Rock as a prisioner and hes this happy? I think he has to know something.

Damn. Yes, I have to admit that the escape of Brynden Tulley does not seam adequate to explain Edmure's emotions. Whatever Martin does, I hope it is not ill conceived.

[Blackfish Blues]

Let´s admit that the Blackfish gets the news from Edmure that Jon´s been named heir...How does he react to that? My Liege, right or wrong?...When facing Jamie he doesn´t seem too convinced about Jon´s merits (and he´s not bluffing, at that point he hasn´t yet talked to Edmure), So does he support Robb´s last will or do the best thing for....whatever, at this point I´m not sure what.

(my italics)

Hello tantoten1! You make some interesting points. I did a double-take when you pointed out that Brynden hasn't talked to Edmure yet, when he has his (maybe) revealing talk with Jaime. However, the more I re-read the parts of ASOS where Robb talks about his heir and sends out the message, the more I'm convinced they are very rushed - not in a bad way, but so much happens in so little time, and much remains implicit. For example, I'm sure Robb had some chat with his advisor the Blackfish before they separated forever. Nothing official, just some "Hey uncle, I'm concerned about this heir thing." So Brynden MIGHT have at least an inkling about who Robb was considering as heir. Even if Robb in the end decided against Jon (but if so we're back again, who did he choose?), Brynden now knows Robb loved Jon like a true brother and isn't going to admit so to Jaime.

Not to mention the possible baby...If it´s being kept hidden somewhere waiting for the "right" moment (gotta be positive), Jon would be a threat (OK, another one)

So does he (along with the Captain of the Guard at Riverrun, and the Master at Arms??) head for the Wall to pledge his sword to Jon? or to stick him with it?

Now this is another interesting scenario, the polar opposite of what I said above. Brynden never talked to Robb about Jon, shares Cat's distrust and sees him as a threat. Hmmm, I'm not sure that in this case he would go as far as reaching the Wall to kill Jon. But this is just my feeling, I have no factual basis for it at all.

Reread the Blackfish/Jaime scene; the BF gave a slip of facial expression that IMO indicates he was misleading Jaime w/r/t Jon; so I think he knows. (But no, no firm evidence, let alone a statement, of the BF's actual thoughts.) The BF seems always honorable and would pledge his sword to the heir, but he'd do so quietly - right now, being the successor to Robb mightn't be the healthiest occupation in Westeros.

Yes, that's closer to my hunch, and yes, unfortunately we can't read Brynden's mind.

Back to the original topic about whether the jeyne that Jaime talked to is really Jeyne leads me to one point which I think is actually key. What I find interesting is not the direwolf flying over Rivverun nor how the Blackfish treated Jaime but instead in Edmures faical expressions and how Jaime said he looked entirely too happy with himself. This could be put down to the Blackfish's escape but I think there is more there.

This is the same Edmure that was depressed for weeks about having to marry a girl he had never met who might or might not be attrative. Now this same person is spending the rest of his life at Casterly Rock as a prisioner and hes this happy? I think he has to know something.

Yes, this made me prick up my ears too. I consider Edmure's smile one of the many AFFC cliffhangers; a minor one, and one that does not involve horribly killing or disfiguring or maiming anyone (yet), but it makes us wonder all the same.

To wrap up all I've said above, I think GRRM is setting up some surprise (as usual). Vagueness in AFFC about Robb's decision; seemingly inconsistent descriptions of Jeyne's hips; the paradox of Robb's heir - everything points to Jon, but Jon is a sworn Black Brother. Add the Tullys' suspicious behaviour, mix well, and I believe we have a quandary that only GRRM will solve. This won't t stop us from cheerily debating it all, of course.

[Sting]

I was thinking lately (after a bit of rereading) about something LF said in the last book. War of Five Kings is followed by 3 Queens (or the mess they make). He said that in one of the last Aleyna chapters.

Who are the 3 Queens? Margery is probably one, and I don't think he means Deneris. Could Mirsela be a 2nd (they finaly crowned her in Dorne?), maybe Cersei as 3rd? Or could it be our little Jeyne? :D

[Edward the Great]

I was thinking lately (after a bit of rereading) about something LF said in the last book. War of Five Kings is followed by 3 Queens (or the mess they make). He said that in one of the last Aleyna chapters.

Who are the 3 Queens? Margery is probably one, and I don't think he means Deneris. Could Mirsela be a 2nd (they finaly crowned her in Dorne?), maybe Cersei as 3rd? Or could it be our little Jeyne? :D

Cersei - Queen Regent

Margaery - the king's wife

Olenna - the Queen of Thorns

[Desch]

I think this entire debate rests on whether or not The Blackfish knew about Jeyne's pregnancy. First of all, for all he knew, there was not a single Stark left (maybe other than Sansa) in the world to carry on with, yet he continued to fly the Stark banner over his castle. This could be one of two things:

1. An honor versus reality kind of thing where he felt the need to fight to the last drop of blood (this isn't out of the question) or

2. He knew of Jeynes pregnancy and knew that he might be protecting the future king of the north by defending the castle so still flew the Stark banner.

I don't think he would have left the Stark banner over his castle if there would not be a Stark heir. These are ''medieval'' traditions. And they go: The king is dead. Long live the king. And it's just like the Blackfish to rub this under Jaimes nose without him noticing.

The only other explanation I can see is if Robb made ,for example, the Karstarks the heirs. It would truly be very dangerous for them. But I doubt that happened.

I think he (and problably Edmure also) thinks there is still a Stark king of the north. Be it Jon, or Jeynes baby or even Sansa (the living rest).

I think at least, GRRM made that change so he could introduce an heir to Robb if he wanted. Maybe with the scrapping of the 5 year gap, he changed his mind.

[Edward the Great]

if Robb made ,for example, the Karstarks the heirs.

Absolutely preposterous.

[Mandurang]

But Robb has an heir. We just don't know who it is. Why do people overlook that fact?

[Edward the Great]

But Robb has an heir. We just don't know who it is. Why do people overlook that fact?

It may be worthwhile to point out that the men Robb sent to Moat Cailin will be in a much better position to deliver his will than Brynden. Therefore, I can't think that Edmure is wearing a smirk because he thinks Brynden will be able to deliver Rob's will.

[Whatever]

But Robb has an heir. We just don't know who it is. Why do people overlook that fact?

because whoever he/she is nobody knows who he/she is.

And i do hope the poor heir will call himself out of this mess. It'd be a political suicide

[The Sand Snake]

It may be worthwhile to point out that the men Robb sent to Moat Cailin will be in a much better position to deliver his will than Brynden. Therefore, I can't think that Edmure is wearing a smirk because he thinks Brynden will be able to deliver Rob's will.

I agree. Edmure is happy because of some other reason. It has to be something involving Jeyne. Has to be. I think that somehow, someway Robb has an heir of his own body alive. Maybe thats not true, but I have to think it is only because I think by the end of the series the Winterfell will be ruled by a Stark male. Bran can't have children, Rickons behind Bran, and Sansa and Arya are women. So thats just my guess.

[Whatever]

I think Rickon will end up as lord of winterfell.

[Myrish swan]

I just found the way that supposed Jeyne was acting while in front of Jaime was kind of odd. It just seemed like she was acting like, I don't know, she was acting. "It was mine." "You had no right. Robb had it made for me. I loved him."

But I would like to point out the cheesiness of the writing when Jaime meets Jeyne. Jeyne's mother waits until just that moment to remove Jeyne's crown? It makes it seam like they are putting on a show for Jaime.

I think the scene with the crown, Jeyne, and Sybell was written to highlight the great contrast between the two women. Jeyne, while the catalyst of a bunch of negative events, is presented as an innocent and decent girl. She did not plan to seduce Rob; it all happened by accident. She did not marry Rob for power, but because she loved him. (Furthermore, she does not seem to want power at all, and indicates to Catelyn that she is highly uncomfortable with wielding it.) She remained loyal to him and really loved him.

Sybell, in contrast, is presented as a nasty person; an “ambitious bitch,” as Jaime called her. Along with Cersei, Sybell is one of the few women we’ve met who desires power on the same level as Tywin, Littlefinger, Tyrion, and their ilk. Interestingly, though her actions are no more or less evil than Tywin’s or Littlefinger’s, she is PURE EVIL (or an “ambitious bitch,” however you want to term it.)

Anyway, in the Jeyne/ Sybell contrast, Jeyne is the “good” female—spunky but innocent, not using sex or any kind of manipulations to get ahead, loyal and steadfast in love, and not ambitious for personal power. In contrast, her evil mama is pragmatic, calculating, treacherous, and obviously highly ambitious for power.

Sybell is presented in her scene with Jaime to be as slimy as possible. During this confrontation, Sybell comes across as just all around nasty—and unlike so may of the male villains, she’s not even given a cool “badass” moment or two. (The reason for the fight over the crown, IMO, is to show that how horrible Sybell is; she hit her daughter to get the crown off of her.) And of course, Jaime Lanister gets the last word—and the final judgment of Sybell. Sybell is an “ambitious bitch,” and her daughter is “worth 12 of her.”

And as with Cersei, Sybell is apparently unintelligent as well as evil. Jaime’s intent for having Jeyne wait two years to get married again apparently flies right over her head. One wonders how Sybell would have been able to accomplish the (admittedly rather treacherous and evil) plots she’s executed if she were anything less than clever.

Sybell was deceiving Jaime somehow; else why did she give "Jeyne" almost no opportunity to speak, but spoke for her almost every time? But though I strongly suspect she was lying, I'm less certain what she was lying about.

Basically, I think the emphasis that is placed on Sybell and her interactions with Jaime is not because she’s hiding something, or that she has just fooled Jaime with the wrong daughter. It is simply because Sybell’s ambitious actions are evil and she must be called out and put in her place. (By a man who throws boys off windows and threatens to put babies in trebuchets, apparently.)