Robb and Jeyne ... was Sybell telling jaime the truth?

[Whatever]

But Robb had already committed political and literal suicide by marrying her. Maybe he understood her more than we readers do and knew she could pull it off.

Jeyne is a 16 years old girl with no experiences and no leadership. She is the mainly reason of the fall of the north (at least robb is, but because of her). Northmen will never follow her. Ok, maybe someone could do it after Robb's bloody death and the defeat of the north, because there is no one left (robb's bannermen are dead or captives)..... but she is still a weak choice.

Actually I don't put much stock in this idea either. I'm just idly looking for alternatives to Jon. Who to me seems rather a good choice, apart for those pesky Night Watch vows.

Agree

[George Snow]

lol - i don't know about all that, but i do know there can't be a war of the 5 starks - there are only 4 left...

jon, whether half targaryan or not, will not be sitting any thrones, at least i don't think he will. his mind was finally made up, after that first half-assed attempt at fleeing the wall, to stay, and now that he's the lord commander, his duty will be to remain, and he doesn't come across as the type to abandon that duty, not even to wed a queen. Aside from anything else, he has a great respect for aemon, who he knows declined the throne to remain at the wall and serve (okay, in that case it was because of his vows as a maester, but still). I think jon has a major part to play, but somehow i think it is at and north of the wall, not in the game of thrones itself...

No, Jon will not take the Iron Throne or Winterfell, as long as the Wall stands and/or the Others exist. In other words, as long as there is a Night's Watch.

If the wall falls, and/or the others are defeated, there is no reason for the Night's Watch to exist, and all, of those that have sworn an oath to the NW, are free to create a life of their own.

That is the out for Jon, whether Stark or Targ.

GH

[Errant Bard]

If the wall falls there is an increased reason for the night's watch. People don't disband their army when they lose the curtain wall of their city, they just put more pressure on it to repel the invaders.

Also there is no resignation clause in the oath: it's "until I die", not "until the wall falls" nor "until enemies I don't know even exist are vanquished". Which is consistent with the fact the Night's Watch was created before the Wall was erected, and wasn't disbanded when people stopped to believe Others even existed, and considered it to be a frontier defense against wildlings as well as a convenient detention camp.

[Whatever]

If the wall falls there is an increased reason for the night's watch. People don't disband their army when they lose the curtain wall of their city, they just put more pressure on it to repel the invaders.

Also there is no resignation clause in the oath: it's "until I die", not "until the wall falls" nor "until enemies I don't know even exist are vanquished". Which is consistent with the fact the Night's Watch was created before the Wall was erected, and wasn't disbanded when people stopped to believe Others even existed, and considered it to be a frontier defense against wildlings as well as a convenient detention camp.

But what if there are not more others? And no more wildling threats? (IMHO the wildling threats will stop by the end of ADWD, I don't know about the others)

/fangirl mode on/ yes, i just don't want jon on that lonely, sad wall forever and ever, amen. /fangirl mode off/

(and really, if jon don't leave the wall ASAP, his POV will become boring)

[Errant Bard]

Well, that hardly matters to people who already made the oath. The oath has no out. No mention of Wall or Others either. It's dishonourable to break your word. End of the story.

And anyway, how do you know there are no more others/Wildlings? How do you convince others people of it? What do you do of the disgraced, out of favour and criminals flooding the realm's prisons?

[arrowfan]

Here's a summary of the Hips thing...

POV differences?

This doesn't add up unless Jaime likes em super wide, as in BBW, and we know Cersei who he is totally attracted to, is not this. Seems like Catelyn would have an eye for big hips and, even if Jaime had a thing for big hips, they would both agree. But in fact they say opposite things about Jeyne's hips. I don't buy it.

Symbolism?

Ehhhh... the symbolism thing goes like - GRRM is using the age old wide hips symbolizes fertility thing to indicate to the reader that when Catelyn saw Jeyne as having wide hips she was fertile, but after the moon tea etc when Jaime saw her he perceived narrow hips indicating her infertility. I don't buy this either. ASOIAF just isn't that kind of book, IMO.

Oversight by GRRM?

While this is certainly possible, as there have been some other examples (eye color), it just seems like too strange and significant an oversight. GRRM purposely wrote about Jeyne's hips twice. And in those two times - they were described as complete opposites. I don't buy this one either.

Jeyne Impostor?

So what are we left with? If you do not buy any of the above 3, then it seems clear that for whatever reason, the Jeyne Jaime met was not the same Jeyne that Catelyn met. If someone has another theory I haven't listed here, please add on. I personally don't think any of the above 3 are believable, while - as unlikely as this one may be - it is possible.

GRRM leaving open possibilities?

This one goes that GRRM purposely wrote the scenes to leave some ambiguity for himself in the future. If he wants/needs Jeyne to have Robb's whelp (and heir to the North) hidden away somewhere he can do that, or he can have the babe never have been born in the first place. Schrodinger's Baby ;) This one seems the most likely to me.

[Whatever]

Well, that hardly matters to people who already made the oath. The oath has no out. No mention of Wall or Others either. It's dishonourable to break your word. End of the story.

And anyway, how do you know there are no more others/Wildlings? How do you convince others people of it? What do you do of the disgraced, out of favour and criminals flooding the realm's prisons?

About the wildlings, i think they are all gonna pass to the other side of the Wall

About the others, i think the wall will fall, because Dany saw something like fighting the others on the trident and mainly because i don't want the othars-plotline to be a northern problem only. People will notice that.

About the criminals.. well, there are prisons. The Wall hasn't been built to hold criminals, but to denfend the realm from the others.

Call it wishful thinking if you want :)

Time (and GRRM) will tell us

[Errant Bard]

So, again, how do they know, how do they convince people about it? And how does that matter, how do they break their oath? (See Sam & Daeron in Braavos: no Wall, no Other around, and Sam's logic was: You said the words)

As an aside, it doesn't matter what the Wall has been built for, what matter is what it's been used for, legitimately, in the mind of everyone.

[Whatever]

So, again, how do they know, how do they convince people about it? And how does that matter, how do they break their oath? (See Sam & Daeron in Braavos: no Wall, no Other around, and Sam's logic was: You said the words)

As an aside, it doesn't matter what the Wall has been built for, what matter is what it's been used for, legitimately, in the mind of everyone.

Ok, let's say the wall fall and the others invade westeros.. i think a lot of people will be convinced that the wall is not there anymore.

If the others invade westeros and they are defeated (in westeros, not beyond the wall) people will be convinced because they will be among the mess.

I don't think anybody would expect the NW too keep the oath to watch a wall that is not there, to defend the kingdom from enemies who have already been destroyed.

BTW, this is just my opinion, and is still don't know if i would like this plot. Plus, it's not important.. we'll know about robb's letter on july, but the others will have to wait much longer

[Errant Bard]

No, I'm not asking how they would know the Wall has fallen, as this one would be pretty self-evident in case of invasion, I'm asking how they would know there are no more Others/Wildlings.

And following that, how would the Night's Watch men go about leaving the Night's Watch. ("Sup, I'm a murderer, but after the war, I decided there was no reason for the Night's Watch to exist, so I broke my oath and I'm back to murder some more"?)

[Whatever]

And following that, how would the Night's Watch men go about leaving the Night's Watch. ("Sup, I'm a murderer, but after the war, I decided there was no reason for the Night's Watch to exist, so I broke my oath and I'm back to murder some more"?)

No idea here :)

What do you think?

[Jeejee]

Regarding Jeyne's hips...I think it's important to remember that each perspective is colored by a character's emotions, personality, history. Jaime went into Riverrun expecting Jeyne to be someone worth losing a war over, an expectation no one can live up to. I'm not surprised he'd end up seeing Jeyne as not especially pretty, and not even appearing all that "fertile" as well...a disappointment, in other words.

I don't regard the discrepancy as significant, in any case. Much like Sansa remembering that the Hound kissed her - it's not a sign that it actually happened, or that Martin made a mistake, or some different, unrelated man kissed her when we weren't paying attention. The characters experience different things, and it doesn't always mesh with what other characters experience.

[Errant Bard]

What do you think?

I think there's no way they disband the Watch, obviously.

I had hoped those who thought it would get disbanded had some consistent vision for it, that's why I asked.

[Edward the Great]

I think there's no way they disband the Watch, obviously.

I had hoped those who thought it would get disbanded had some consistent vision for it, that's why I asked.

no brainer - the occasional talk of "summer without end" opens the possibility of a final defeat of the Others.

However, my suspicion is that such a final defeat would require the end of the dragons. I once even speculated that it could involve Jon and Dany traveling back in time.

[Whatever]

I think there's no way they disband the Watch, obviously.

I had hoped those who thought it would get disbanded had some consistent vision for it, that's why I asked.

Ok.. if you really want to know it, i think that when the wall falls there will be a mass desertion of many of the misfits of the NW. a little like when chett runs away on the fist of the first man. Also, i don't think there will be many NW alive at the end

[Lord Godric]

I think there's no way they disband the Watch, obviously.

I had hoped those who thought it would get disbanded had some consistent vision for it, that's why I asked.

no brainer - the occasional talk of "summer without end" opens the possibility of a final defeat of the Others.

However, my suspicion is that such a final defeat would require the end of the dragons. I once even speculated that it could involve Jon and Dany traveling back in time.

Exactly. I think an absolute victory over the Others is possible. The Children of the Forest and the Andals did not have dragons on their side when they pushed the Others back into the North last time. With dragons I think it is entirely possible to defeat the Others once and for all. And since I think the Wall will fall sometime in the series, no Wall+no Others=No Night's Watch.

[Whatever]

i like errant bard question - what are the NW going to do after

And since I think the Wall will fall sometime in the series, no Wall+no Others=No Night's Watch.

:agree:

[Errant Bard]

Ok, this is frustrating, I'm not making myself understood. I'm not asking how they will beat the Others, or what the situation objectively will be. I'm asking how the powers that be get to know with certainty that there are no more Others/wildlings to come. You know, subjectively.

I guess I'm also asking how they tell the difference between the 8000 years without Others where the Wall was still built and the Night's Watch kept alive and any post-war for the dawn mk2 situation.

[tuthmoses]

If you think about this from sybell's perspective her driving goal seems to be raising her family as high as possible. So thinking about that ...

1. When she is supposedily sticking the knife in his back, Robb is yet to lose a battle. In fact he has proved almost invincible on the battefield.

2. With her daughter marrying the king in the North the westerlings are raised from insignificant bannermen to one of the most powerful families in the realm (job done)

3. Pre red wedding it is far from clear that the north will be defeated ... the war is not going brilliantly but it is far from over.

4. The best she can hope for off the lannisters for betraying house stark is a wee bit more land and a slight raise in the family's status while off the starks her family is raised about as high as a family can be. Conversly its very trusting to think that someone like Tywin or the kingslayer (who is the general on scene and has nothing but her word to go on)will not take the opposite route and not forgive the entire house's treachery simply because the mother claims to have patched it up.

5. In her situation weither true or not she HAS to try to prove that she has been loyal to the lannister's all along if not the family is screwed. Saying what she said could be seen just as much as trying to escape a sticky situation as anything ... "oh yeah I was on your side all along see what I did etc etc oh I know my daughter and the rest of my house betrayed you there for a while but don't worry about that I'll keep them in line" In fact what she said is pretty much all she could say to save herself and her family in the situation she found herself in. Put yourself in her shoes ... I mean really has she any other alternative that she could say?

6. Jeyne genuinely loves Robb so its not some intricate double cross plot to apparently betray the lannisters, hope Robb will come to the rescue, hope he will fall in love with a girl (that 'is not a girl to lose a kingdom over' - if it is the same one) somehow know that robb will be stupid enough to marry her so that the Fray's will betray him, so that he will go to patch it up, so they will kill him while she insures jeyne doesn't get pregnant etc etc.

[Lady Winter Rose]

1. When she is supposedily sticking the knife in his back, Robb is yet to lose a battle. In fact he has proved almost invincible on the battefield.

Lannister have a joke about Robb's brilliance: "King who win every battle and lose everything"

2. With her daughter marrying the king in the North the westerlings are raised from insignificant bannermen to one of the most powerful families in the realm (job done)

True.

3. Pre red wedding it is far from clear that the north will be defeated ... the war is not going brilliantly but it is far from over.

In the moment Robb marry Jayne, he lose big amount of his strength (de facto). Winterfell, heirs (presumably Bran and Rickon and de facto Sansa), Freys and Boltons... Later he lose Karstaks. Not close, but he was doing great to achive Red Wedding. Hey, it started with a wedding. It was rude not to finish with a wedding.

4. The best she can hope for off the lannisters for betraying house stark is a wee bit more land and a slight raise in the family's status while off the starks her family is raised about as high as a family can be.

True.

5. In her situation weither true or not she HAS to try to prove that she has been loyal to the lannister's all along if not the family is screwed. Saying what she said could be seen just as much as trying to escape a sticky situation as anything ...

True. She was brilliant when she lied Jaime that she has a deal with Tywin. That was really smart. She is my hero. :D

6. Jeyne genuinely loves Robb so its not some intricate double cross plot to apparently betray the lannisters, hope Robb will come to the rescue, hope he will fall in love with a girl (that 'is not a girl to lose a kingdom over' - if it is the same one)

Jayne was in love with Robb. Maybe Robb was poisoned with aphrodisiac to have royal bastard. Imagine Sybill's shock and joy when Robb was going to marry her. She screw her family. Probably enchanted. She is awesome. :)