Robb and Jeyne ... was Sybell telling jaime the truth?

[Sting]

Imo Brynden can go either to the wall to John, or if Littlefinger somehow sent a bird to Riverrun and told him about Sansa, he is going back to the Vale.

Brynden would be invaluable for LF, and I'm sure he would serve Sansa faithfully as he did Rob.

[Maia]

So, are you basically saying that is better having no heir than having jon?

IMHO, naming a Black Brother (!!!) a heir would be highly irrational and fragile and uncertain situation of House Stark at the time made it even worse. Basically, no matter what Robb said, if Jon tried to accept it, everybody and their dog would have an iron-clad "honorable" pretext to rebel against Jon and his heirs. In perpetuity. Ditto for south attacking the North. Would put a stop to NW getting _any_ recruits from the south too, leave alone quality ones.

Naming a Vale lordling as heir as a stop-gap would have been much more prudent, IMHO.

[Blackfish Blues]

Imo Brynden can go either to the wall to John, or if Littlefinger somehow sent a bird to Riverrun and told him about Sansa, he is going back to the Vale.

Brynden would be invaluable for LF, and I'm sure he would serve Sansa faithfully as he did Rob.

Hello Sting! Yes, this is one of the most popular opinions about where the Blackfish could go, and I find it intriguing.

But I can't see him consorting with LF. They are at the opposite ends of the spectrum in regards to behaviour and beliefs. BF can be shrewd and secretive, but certainly not to the level of LF. Either there would be a clash (with deadly results) or Brynden woluld once again pack up and leave. (Hopefully with Sansa.)

IMHO, naming a Black Brother (!!!) a heir would be highly irrational and fragile and uncertain situation of House Stark at the time made it even worse. Basically, no matter what Robb said, if Jon tried to accept it, everybody and their dog would have an iron-clad "honorable" pretext to rebel against Jon and his heirs. In perpetuity. Ditto for south attacking the North. Would put a stop to NW getting _any_ recruits from the south too, leave alone quality ones.

Naming a Vale lordling as heir as a stop-gap would have been much more prudent, IMHO.

I agree. :agree: Emotionally my heart makes me think Robb has chosen Jon, but vows are vows, especially for a Stark. And indeed Jon refused Stannis' offer of Winterfell.

Vale lordlings... hmmm... we know nothing about them. I'd be disappointed if GRRM drew out of his hat a Vale heir. Unless he is Harry, promised to Sansa... but how coulr Robb have known?

[Mickey2093]

Vale lordlings... hmmm... we know nothing about them. I'd be disappointed if GRRM drew out of his hat a Vale heir. Unless he is Harry, promised to Sansa... but how coulr Robb have known?

It's actually not necessary that Robb knew at all. If he covered his bases in his declaration giving the decision for the heir, then it's entirely possible that BF is heading for the caveat - the next live heir (sansa). Many comments ago someone suggested that Robb had safeguards in his declaration - I would agree with that possibility, he's been learning as he goes, and could potentially have realized that it's not a simple decision. With those in place, perhaps sansa, married to someone OTHER than a lannister, would be the appropriate heir, and if he included this caveat, and LF did send something to BF (not likely, I know, if for no other reason than messages can easily get intercepted, ravens shot down, etc, and then the news about sansa being alive would be out), then BF could (in that hypothetical situation) be headed for sansa. Alternatively, he could be headed for the Vale just because that's the best place for him to go. He is well respected there - having kept the bloody gate for years. It's entirely possible that he knows about lysa's death, and is going to help with young robert - who, now that i think on it, is another potential person named as heir. Robb doesn't know that he's sickly - he only knows that he exists, and is his cousin, and is safe in the vale. wouldn't THAT be an interesting turn of events??

[A Redeemed Hound]

I may be hallucinating... but I could swear there was a scene where Robb signed an edict making Jon Snow his heir, in the event he did not father any children. I remember Cat ruefully thinking mentally about how she had been outmaneuvered by Robb at his taking this action in front of the Greatjohn et all, this was sometime on their journey to the Twins if I recall correctly. Unfortunately I only have the e-book version on my Kindle and I suck at searching on it...

In any case, Edmure would have known about this, but I'm not sure the Blackfish would have. But maybe they're planning on going up to the Wall and getting Jon.

It's always possible I misread or my memory is faulty. I am sure someone in this thread will correct me quickly in that event :).

[EDIT] Straining to recall further, I believe it was simply pardoning/revoking his "bastardry". It was in a discussion about how now that Bran and Rikon were dead, Sansa lost, and Arya likely dead, there was no heir until Robb could have a child. Robb mentions that he has another brother and Catelyn reacts poorly as one might suspect. So, I think this is less about explicitly naming him heir, and more about essentially making him not a bastard legally so he could therefore inherit the Kingship from Robb.

[EDIT2] Found it:And then, right before the end of the chapter, several days later

So, Jon is Robb's heir, and at least Edmure knows it, although the Blackfish might not have known it before Edmure was returned to him by Jamie. I think the Blackfish is off to the wall to unite with his King.

Yes he is. But where did the letter go? Who has it?

[A Redeemed Hound]

What if Catelyn-zombie eventually sees Jon or meets up with him somehow and tells all, in a final act of redemption for being a mega-bitch, that Robb did in fact make Jon the heir to Winterfell? By then the Wall will probably be down anyway and Jon might not even be Lord Commander at that point if Ser Jorah returns there.

[tuthmoses]

What if Catelyn-zombie eventually sees Jon or meets up with him somehow and tells all, in a final act of redemption for being a mega-bitch, that Robb did in fact make Jon the heir to Winterfell? By then the Wall will probably be down anyway and Jon might not even be Lord Commander at that point if Ser Jorah returns there.

cat is a character that is quick to see the flaws in others and slow to realise that she is pretty much the cause of the whole war. All she had to do was support ned when he said he wasn't going to go to Kingslanding instead of pushing him to go. Also she went a good way in destroying Robb's chances by releasing Jaime and messed up badly with the whole Tyrion affair. I just want her to die for good, she's a pain in the ass. Anyway this is a bit off topic

[Mickey2093]

What if Catelyn-zombie eventually sees Jon or meets up with him somehow and tells all, in a final act of redemption for being a mega-bitch, that Robb did in fact make Jon the heir to Winterfell? By then the Wall will probably be down anyway and Jon might not even be Lord Commander at that point if Ser Jorah returns there.

Why would Ser Jorah returning affect Jons being Lord Commander? Even if he came back and took the black, he would only be a brother of the NW, under Jons command.

I don't think we'll see the Wall fall, unless the War for the Dawn actually comes and the Others are finally defeated, root and branch, at which point the wall will be superfluous - it's purpose was to defend against the Others, not wildlings (the NW and the wall serve to preserve the Realms of Man, not the Kingdom).

As for uncat, she was dead too long, too much of her humanity leaked away. She exists now only for revenge, thinking all of her children taken from her or dead (as far as we know, anyway, there has been no confirmation that she knows of arya being alive at any point, even though the men she's leading know that arya was alive relatively recently, in the company of the hound).

No, I find the likelihood of uncats redemption slight, and would not be happy with that part of the story line if indeed it came. As someone said above, she is pretty much responsible for the whole damned war. She should have left Tyrion be at the inn, continuing on her way to do as her Lord and husband told her to do. He was investigating the attempt on Brans life, and if/when appropriate would have seized Tyrion, or whoever he believed in the end was responsible, but he would have made every attempt to be certain before acting, making sure he had the proof necessary, if for no other reason that Tyrion was the goodbrother of the King, and the Lannisters had too much influence over him and around him to go to him with anything less than certain proof.

[Ecthelion]

Considering the situation, the best heirs would be Arya, Rickon or Sansa, anyway. Arya can probably swear fealty to Dany soon, so close they are geographically (well not really, but more than other characters) and get the Queen's (and Dorne) support. Rickon has no string attached and can federate a Stark resistance around him (or rather, around whatever puppeteer uses him) without hampering the fight against Others. Sansa obviously can get the Vale and Riverlands to support her claim. All in all, it's rather fun: when the Starks will come back, each of them has the potential to have a different part of the world supporting them... Soon coming: the war of the five Starks.

No, no, no. There won't be a war of the 5 Starks. One Stark will simply take over everything. Sansa and Tyrion will inherit Casterly Rock. Arya will be married to Sweetrobin and rule the Vale. Bran will be found and rule in the North. And they will marry Rickon to Margarey and rule in Highgarden. Jon, being half-Targ, will sit on the Iron Throne with each of his cousins a Warden.

B)

[Mickey2093]

No, no, no. There won't be a war of the 5 Starks. One Stark will simply take over everything. Sansa and Tyrion will inherit Casterly Rock. Arya will be married to Sweetrobin and rule the Vale. Bran will be found and rule in the North. And they will marry Rickon to Margarey and rule in Highgarden. Jon, being half-Targ, will sit on the Iron Throne with each of his cousins a Warden.

B)

lol - i don't know about all that, but i do know there can't be a war of the 5 starks - there are only 4 left...

jon, whether half targaryan or not, will not be sitting any thrones, at least i don't think he will. his mind was finally made up, after that first half-assed attempt at fleeing the wall, to stay, and now that he's the lord commander, his duty will be to remain, and he doesn't come across as the type to abandon that duty, not even to wed a queen. Aside from anything else, he has a great respect for aemon, who he knows declined the throne to remain at the wall and serve (okay, in that case it was because of his vows as a maester, but still). I think jon has a major part to play, but somehow i think it is at and north of the wall, not in the game of thrones itself...

[Errant Bard]

- Either he knows that Jon is the heir, and acts accordingly (going to the Wall?)

See, I don't get this reaction. Why would Jon being the heir, specifically, make Brynden act differently than if anyone else was the heir? Seems to me that an heir is an heir, to Brynden, and he would not make a difference between a Jon "Marty Su, to be met ASAP" Snow and a Jon "Who fucking cares, he's not a PoV character, I'll dick around" Smith.

Also, I don't think it's that smart to make a beeline for whatever heir he would know the name of. By himself, Brynden has no value, or even a negative value, by bringing attention to a defenseless guy (or one who would benefited from not being in the limelight anyway).

and in that case, I haven't the slightest idea of what Brynden would do.

"Act accordingly"? :P

Sansa and Tyrion will inherit Casterly Rock. Arya will be married to Sweetrobin and rule the Vale. Bran will be found and rule in the North. And they will marry Rickon to Margarey and rule in Highgarden. Jon, being half-Targ, will sit on the Iron Throne with each of his cousins a Warden.

:stillsick:

The one thing good in this scenario is to know Sweetrobin would get knifed pretty fast.

[Targaryen loyalist]

If I remember well LF says that once Littlerobin dies and Sansa marries the new heir to the Vale she will be able to reveal herself as a true Stark (and she can demonstrate that the marriage with Tyron is void because she is still a virgin, and some maesters/septons/septas can certifiy this).

Of course we have learned not to trust LF, but in an ideal world at that point Sansa will be the legitimate heir presumptive of Winterfell: Arya, Rickon, Robb and Bran are dead (Robb for real, the other three are supposedly dead). Fake Arya I think will have a short "life" as claimant to Winterfell, and in any case Sansa is older than Arya so she has a better claim.

[Blackfish Blues]

It's actually not necessary that Robb knew at all. If he covered his bases in his declaration giving the decision for the heir, then it's entirely possible that BF is heading for the caveat - the next live heir (sansa). Many comments ago someone suggested that Robb had safeguards in his declaration - I would agree with that possibility, he's been learning as he goes, and could potentially have realized that it's not a simple decision. With those in place, perhaps sansa, married to someone OTHER than a lannister, would be the appropriate heir, and if he included this caveat, and LF did send something to BF (not likely, I know, if for no other reason than messages can easily get intercepted, ravens shot down, etc, and then the news about sansa being alive would be out), then BF could (in that hypothetical situation) be headed for sansa. Alternatively, he could be headed for the Vale just because that's the best place for him to go. He is well respected there - having kept the bloody gate for years. It's entirely possible that he knows about lysa's death, and is going to help with young robert - who, now that i think on it, is another potential person named as heir. Robb doesn't know that he's sickly - he only knows that he exists, and is his cousin, and is safe in the vale. wouldn't THAT be an interesting turn of events??

If ever the Blackfish heads to the Vale, my instinct is that he either looks for allies in his old comrades, or he wants to protect Sweetrobin (independently from who Robb named as heir.) I still can't see Littlefinger informing Brynden specifically of Sansa's presence in the Vale. Not impossible, but it depends from what kind of memories Petyr has of his youth in Riverrun. He doesn't strike me as the man to call to his side a cranky foster-uncle known for his shrewdness. But that's just my gut feeling.

See, I don't get this reaction. Why would Jon being the heir, specifically, make Brynden act differently than if anyone else was the heir? Seems to me that an heir is an heir, to Brynden, and he would not make a difference between a Jon "Marty Su, to be met ASAP" Snow and a Jon "Who fucking cares, he's not a PoV character, I'll dick around" Smith.

Because we were discussing Jon as Robb's heir. It's just one of the million theories, but I do think it's possible that Brynden would try to reach whoever he knows to be Robb's heir. If he knows.

Also, I don't think it's that smart to make a beeline for whatever heir he would know the name of. By himself, Brynden has no value, or even a negative value, by bringing attention to a defenseless guy (or one who would benefited from not being in the limelight anyway).

That's a good point. If it's Jon, he's in the limelight already as Lord Commander of the NW and Stannis' ally (I think by now word of Stannis' landing at the Wall has gone around...?). Also it would not be especially worthy of attention if the Blackfish went to the Wall; people might think he's decided to take the black. IF Robb named some remote relative in the Vale, and Brynden ran to his/her side, this could indeed be worthy of suspicion. I am indeed more uncertain of his actions in this case, and this is one more reason that makes me feel Brynden would not go to the Vale.

Generally speaking, I do think Brynden would try to reach Robb's heir, but his behaviour might vary depending on who and where he or she is.

(trying to return on-topic)

What if Robb knew Jeyne was pregnant and named her his heir? Note that I'm not a supporter of the theory that Jeyne escaped with the Blackfish, but I do think she could be pregnant. Robb might have meant the Riverlands and the North to rally around her. Farfetched, but I'm just tossing it out.

[Whatever]

IMHO, naming a Black Brother (!!!) a heir would be highly irrational and fragile and uncertain situation of House Stark at the time made it even worse. Basically, no matter what Robb said, if Jon tried to accept it, everybody and their dog would have an iron-clad "honorable" pretext to rebel against Jon and his heirs. In perpetuity. Ditto for south attacking the North. Would put a stop to NW getting _any_ recruits from the south too, leave alone quality ones.

Naming a Vale lordling as heir as a stop-gap would have been much more prudent, IMHO.

So it's just because Jon is a NW? i agree there.. but IMHO, cat's resentment about the topic is not due to the fact that robb wanted jon to be his heir, neverthless of his vow, but is mainly due to the simple fact that robb wanted jon as his heir.

Then, this is just an opinion and this is the wrong topic... nevermind :)

Why would Ser Jorah returning affect Jons being Lord Commander? Even if he came back and took the black, he would only be a brother of the NW, under Jons command.

Many people believe Jorah will be the new LC because his father was. bah. All i want is to read about his death.

The one thing good in this scenario is to know Sweetrobin would get knifed pretty fast.

:agree:

(i'd love it!)

What if Robb knew Jeyne was pregnant and named her his heir? Note that I'm not a supporter of the theory that Jeyne escaped with the Blackfish, but I do think she could be pregnant. Robb might have meant the Riverlands and the North to rally around her. Farfetched, but I'm just tossing it out.

Political suicide. :thumbsdown:

I don't think even robb coudl have been that dumb (yes, i don't like jeyne :D )

[Lord Godric]

Yes he is. But where did the letter go? Who has it?

Probably flew off with the Raven that should have delivered Ned's letter to Jon.

[Whatever]

Probably flew off with the Raven that should have delivered Ned's letter to Jon.

Varys has that Ned's letter.

It's known

[Lord Godric]

Varys has that Ned's letter.

It's known

It is known. Which I tried to convey via the word 'should.'

[Whatever]

It is known. Which I tried to convey via the word 'should.'

Just kidding :)

you just gave me a crazy idea about varys and robb's letter, but it'sn better i keep this for me.

[Blackfish Blues]

Political suicide. :thumbsdown:

I don't think even robb coudl have been that dumb (yes, i don't like jeyne :D )

But Robb had already committed political and literal suicide by marrying her. Maybe he understood her more than we readers do and knew she could pull it off.

Actually I don't put much stock in this idea either. I'm just idly looking for alternatives to Jon. Who to me seems rather a good choice, apart for those pesky Night Watch vows.

[tuthmoses]

have the new pov's in dance been nailed down? Its unlikely but jeyne as a pov might be interesting