The Wise Man's Fear III [Spoilers and Speculation within]

[Volsungr]

I think there may be something going on biologically or diet wise among the Adem that makes them resistant to pregnancy. Exceptionally low birth rates seem frequent there and that explains why a concept of paternity is difficult for them to grasp.

A culture of nomads who settled and became mercenaries/fierce warriors actually makes a great deal of sense. There are multiple races who made that transition.

I think the scene with Jason and the reaction from everyone to that was heavy-handed and Gary Stuish. The scene where Kvothe kills the false troupers wasn't. To me it was interesting and well presented.

The speculation about Diet/Biology to me is essentially making excuses for the Author your filling in your own thoughts to make up for a hole in his. I think it is more likely that PR simply didn't think deeply about the problems with they idea.

Thistlepong I think that there is political idealogical element to this debate unfortunately. I think I'll leave my comment at that because I think going more into depth then that is beyond the scope of this thread.

[wrathofdog]

Cinder is recognizable precisely because of his grace. At age 12, Kvothe describes him as supple, relaxed, and beautiful. At the camp, he’s unperturbed. But it would be sort of lame if Haliax could just give them different bodies.

For what it's worth, the law in the books is, to my naked eye, flawless.

It wholly undermines the instant recognisabiltiy and quicksilver movement of Cinder if it's Bredon.

I just can't get around the "Master Ash" and the Ferula/ferule clues. Kvothe is a talented namer; naming Denna's patron "Master Ash" is a blatant hand pointing at Cinder. Cinder's true name is Ferula; a ferule is a cane that you beat someone with, and the Cthaeh says specifically that Denna's patron beats her with a cane. One of these could perhaps conceivably be a red herring, but not both. And then we learn that Denna's patron was present at the massacre by the Chandrian at that wedding, and that he has her composing a song to show Haliax in a positive light.

Denna's patron is Cinder; I think this is proven in the text. Therefore, if Bredon is not Cinder in disguise (and I agree that it would have to be a hell of a disguise), then Bredon isn't Denna's patron. He has a cane, true, and he goes missing at the appropriate times, and he does have the Bond villain thing going with all the talk about beautiful games, but I think these must be the red herrings, because "Master Ash" most definitely is not.

The more I consider this, the more sense it makes. Rothfuss obviously wants us to think that Bredon is Denna's patron; Denna suggests that Kvothe might have met her patron at court, but the only other noble that we meet at court aside from the Maer is Bredon. Denna says that Master Ash carries a cane, which Bredon does. But then Denna says that Bredon is a surprisingly good dancer, and we hear from Bredon that he has only recently taken up dancing. Is it likely that someone new to dancing, someone who walks with a cane no less, would be a surprisingly good dancer? More likely that this hint points at graceful Cinder rather than Bredon.

I have to conclude that Bredon is meant to throw us off the trail. Everyone assumes that he's Denna's patron, but all the clues that point to him being so are fairly weak. The real clues, especially the plays on words that Rothfuss loves so well, all point to Denna's patron being Cinder.

[unJon]

Can someone explain to me why Manet was leading a group of bandits robbing the Maer's tax collectors?

[dcon]

Can someone explain to me why Manet was leading a group of bandits robbing the Maer's tax collectors?

It makes sense. The only person that can remotely challenge him is himself, so he takes the form of K to hunt himself down.

[ShanRawr]

Can someone explain to me why Manet was leading a group of bandits robbing the Maer's tax collectors?

Kilvin is stingy. Manet's got to make some extra coin somehow.

[Dragons Dancing]

I just can't get around the "Master Ash" and the Ferula/ferule clues. Kvothe is a talented namer; naming Denna's patron "Master Ash" is a blatant hand pointing at Cinder. Cinder's true name is Ferula; a ferule is a cane that you beat someone with, and the Cthaeh says specifically that Denna's patron beats her with a cane. One of these could perhaps conceivably be a red herring, but not both. And then we learn that Denna's patron was present at the massacre by the Chandrian at that wedding, and that he has her composing a song to show Haliax in a positive light.

Denna's patron is Cinder; I think this is proven in the text. Therefore, if Bredon is not Cinder in disguise (and I agree that it would have to be a hell of a disguise), then Bredon isn't Denna's patron. He has a cane, true, and he goes missing at the appropriate times, and he does have the Bond villain thing going with all the talk about beautiful games, but I think these must be the red herrings, because "Master Ash" most definitely is not.

The more I consider this, the more sense it makes. Rothfuss obviously wants us to think that Bredon is Denna's patron; Denna suggests that Kvothe might have met her patron at court, but the only other noble that we meet at court aside from the Maer is Bredon. Denna says that Master Ash carries a cane, which Bredon does. But then Denna says that Bredon is a surprisingly good dancer, and we hear from Bredon that he has only recently taken up dancing. Is it likely that someone new to dancing, someone who walks with a cane no less, would be a surprisingly good dancer? More likely that this hint points at graceful Cinder rather than Bredon.

I have to conclude that Bredon is meant to throw us off the trail. Everyone assumes that he's Denna's patron, but all the clues that point to him being so are fairly weak. The real clues, especially the plays on words that Rothfuss loves so well, all point to Denna's patron being Cinder.

I agree with this thoughtful assessment. I think that Bredon is likely an Amyr who is interested in Kvothe but not Denna's patron. I wondered if Denna's patron is Dagon. Kvothe has strong deep feral instincts about Dagon each time he meets him and Stapes says that Dagon is like cold water down the back of his neck. I think it is very possible that Dagon is Cinder and possibly Denna's benefactor. The Maer sends Kvothe with the mercenaries to find the bandits and does not tell Dagon he is doing this. I was also suspicious when Dagon did not catch Caudicus and we never find out what actually happened to Caudicus just that Dagon allegedly found him and disposed of him.

[wrathofdog]

I wondered if Denna's patron is Dagon. Kvothe has strong deep feral instincts about Dagon each time he meets him and Stapes says that Dagon is like cold water down the back of his neck. I think it is very possible that Dagon is Cinder and possibly Denna's benefactor.

It would surprise me if Dagon was Denna's patron; he's cold enough, but Dagon seems to be a soldier, not a noble. I don't think he's Cinder, either; Dagon couldn't even capture Caudicus without losing several men under his command and an ear; I suspect that Cinder would make mincemeat of him.

Reading the section about the Cthaeh again, I noticed something that seems to rule out both Dagon and Bredon as being Cinder:

"Pity he [Cinder] got away,", the Cthaeh continued. "Still, you must admit you've had quite a piece of luck. I'd say it was a twice-in-a-lifetime opportunity, meeting up with him again. Pity you wasted it. Don't feel bad you didn't recognize him. They have a lot of experience hiding those telltale signs. Not your fault at all. It's been a long time. Years."

Given that the Cthaeh cannot lie, we can glean from this passage one definite fact: that Kvothe has only met Cinder twice in his life, and only once without recognizing him. So Bredon definitely is not Cinder, and thus, taking into account the "Master Ash" and the Ferula/ferule clues, Bredon is not Denna's patron, either.

I'm given to believe that Bredon is nothing more than what he appears to be; a noble of the Maer's court who takes an interest in Kvothe and whiles away a few afternoons playing board games with him. Rothfuss' hints that he is Denna's patron are only there to lead us off the trail of Cinder, to whom much stronger but subtler clues point.

[CryHavoc]

I'd take Ash = Bredon or Ash = Cinder. There are hints both ways; I wouldn't, however, like it very much if both were true; I think if Kvothe could recognize Cinder from the way he raised his arm from god knows how far away in the dark in a storm, he probably would recognize him when chatting and playing board games. I think Cinder fits better thematically with the oath that Kvothe won't go looking for Ash, though; it seems way easier for him to break that one accidentally.

[Misfortune]

I don't think that Denna's patron is Cinder. Ferule is a cane used for punishing, a tool. Haliax says to Cinder repeatedly that he is "a tool in my hand". Cinder seems to be the most outright vicious of the Chandrian, which would recommend using hims as an enforcer or as punishment. Thus, Cinder acts as Haliax's ferule. However, Denna's patron, assuming he's working for the Chandrian, is not punishing anyone. Sure, he's cruel to her for no good reason, but I very much doubt the Chandrian are interested in disciplining some no-name pseudo-prostitute. Their goal with respect to Denna would be much subtler, requiring a different tool.

Lastly, Denna specifically describes her patron as "elderly". As far as I remember, Cinder is rather young. Bredon, however...

[wrathofdog]

I don't think that Denna's patron is Cinder. Ferule is a cane used for punishing, a tool. Haliax says to Cinder repeatedly that he is "a tool in my hand". Cinder seems to be the most outright vicious of the Chandrian, which would recommend using hims as an enforcer or as punishment. Thus, Cinder acts as Haliax's ferule.

That is sound reasoning. But what about "Master Ash?" Kvothe is Relar; when he gives someone a name, we must assume it bears significance. If Ash doesn't point to Cinder, I can't think where else it could.

However, Denna's patron, assuming he's working for the Chandrian, is not punishing anyone. Sure, he's cruel to her for no good reason, but I very much doubt the Chandrian are interested in disciplining some no-name pseudo-prostitute. Their goal with respect to Denna would be much subtler, requiring a different tool.

The Cthaeh makes it clear that the beatings are merely idle amusement to Denna's patron:

"He beats her, you know. Her patron. Not all the time, but often. Sometimes in a temper, but mostly its a game to him. How far can he go before she cries? How far can he push before she tries to leave and he has to lure her back again."

I think it has little to do with discipline, and more to do with random cruelty. Cinder certainly fits the bill there.

Lastly, Denna specifically describes her patron as "elderly". As far as I remember, Cinder is rather young. Bredon, however...

She does describe him as 'an older gentleman,' you're right. But Cinder has white hair. If we assume that he can hide his black eyes (and the Cthaeh implies strongly that he can), then mightn't his white hair lead Denna to assume that he's an older man?

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

*snip*

Good points all, but sadly undermined by the fact that you STOLE MY DISPLAY NAME (sort of) :)

[Misfortune]

The Cthaeh says that they have a lot of "experience hiding those telltale signs". The thing is, if Cinder could "turn off" his black eyes, they wouldn't be a sign. Hiding them means just that, hiding something that's still there. He could do this by, say, wearing a helmet as he did in the bandit camp.

A young man with white hair is still obviously young. Any of us could tell the difference up close, and Denna isn't an idiot.

I'll admit I have no answer to "Master Ash", but alone I think it's weak justification. Really, I just don't see Cinder for it. Every time we've seen him, he has been doing violence, straight up. He might be graceful and beautiful, but he is not subtle. I really think that Cinder is Haliax's Dagon. He's the Chandrian that you send to a place where people need to die, quickly and simply. He's not the guy that you send when you need to work some convoluted plot about making yourself out to be a hero in a song. Of course, this is just my impression, since the character has only really been in about 1.2 scenes, and we know very little about Master Ash. Still, I would be quite surprised if Ash were Cinder.

Edit: I do have something to say about Master Ash. I don't have tNotW on me, but doesn't Kvothe try out like 3 different tree names before settling on Ash? His subconcious naming skills would have to suck something awful if he tried to name Cinder Master Rowan. PR probably put "Ash" in there so that it could be all ironically appropriate when Kvothe tastes ash blowing from the farm.

[Wras]

Well I got very lucky and finished Name of the Wind the day before Wise Man's Fear came out. Perfect time to discover it, really.

I liked the Adem at a glance. The Tao-ish stuff worked for me. Their ignorance didn't seem odd, not nearly as much as their astonishingly low pregnancy rate.

And that dude got laid. I'm still kind of ehh on the whole Felurian part. That he got with Losi in the inn as soon as he came back was amusing, but Vashet and Penthe seemed a little unnecessary.

Just like the first book, the stories got a little excessive. At one point it was Kvothe telling his story where Hespe tells a story about an old man who knew a story about the Adem... Inception trombones were going off in my head. Four layers is too deep!

I think his dynamic with Denna is very realistic, especially because you get the feeling that if they had an honest conversation for like half an hour, they'd get their shit sorted out.

[wrathofdog]

The Cthaeh says that they have a lot of "experience hiding those telltale signs". The thing is, if Cinder could "turn off" his black eyes, they wouldn't be a sign. Hiding them means just that, hiding something that's still there. He could do this by, say, wearing a helmet as he did in the bandit camp.

The passage I was thinking of was this one:

"Why can't you find this Cinder? Well, that's an interesting why. You'd think a man with coal-black eyes would make an impression when he stops to buy a drink. How can it be that you haven't managed to catch wind of him in all this time?"

To me, it sounded like the Cthaeh was implying that Cinder has a way to disguise his eyes. After all, you would think they'd be a bit of a giveaway. Does he just wear a helmet everywhere? Possible, I guess, but it seems like that would also raise eyebrows.

A young man with white hair is still obviously young. Any of us could tell the difference up close, and Denna isn't an idiot.

That's hard to argue, but I would throw in the caveat that Cinder really isn't young. Isn't he several thousand years old, having lived since before the fall of Myr Tariniel? Wasn't he one of the seven that Lanre tempted to betray their cities? He's, like, the exact opposite of young.

If we accept that he can change his eyes, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that he can otherwise modify his appearance as well. Maybe he takes on the appearance of an older man with a cane. This would be congruent with the Ferule aspect of his persona.

Edit: I do have something to say about Master Ash. I don't have tNotW on me, but doesn't Kvothe try out like 3 different tree names before settling on Ash? His subconcious naming skills would have to suck something awful if he tried to name Cinder Master Rowan.

Hmm, you may be right. I don't remember the scene clearly, but if Kvothe floundered for the name, it is a dent in this theory. We'll need to investigate this further.

EDIT: I've done some digging. Here is the passage in which Master Ash is named:

"Just make up a name for him," I suggested.

"You pick one," she said. "Don't they teach you about names at the University?"

"Annabelle," I suggested.

"I will not," she said, laughing, "refer to my potential patron as Annabelle."

"The Duke of Richmoney."

"Now you're just being flippant. Try again."

"Just tell me when I hit one you like . . . Federick the Flippant. Frank. Feran. Forue. Fordale. . . ."

She shook her head at me as we climbed the crest of the hill. As we finally reached the top, the wind gusted past us. Denna gripped my arm for balance and I held up a hand to shield my eyes from dust and leaves. I coughed in surprise as the wind forced a leaf straight into my mouth, causing me to choke and splutter.

Denna thought this was particularly funny. "Fine," I said, as I fished the leaf out of my mouth. It was yellow, shaped like a spearhead. "The wind has decided for us. Master Ash."

"Are you sure it isn't Master Elm?" she asked, eyeing the leaf. "It's a common mistake."

"Tastes like an ash," I said. "Besides, elm is feminine."

She nodded seriously, though her eyes were dancing.

"Ash it is then."

There you have it. If the wind picking the name isn't enough to convince us of its significance, I don't think anything is.

The Cthaeh's words take on an even more ominous significance when read in this light:

"Why can't you find this Cinder? Well, that's an interesting why. You'd think a man with coal-black eyes would make an impression when he stops to buy a drink. How can it be that you haven't managed to catch wind of him in all this time?"

Because Kvothe did "catch wind of him," in a very literal sense. My conviction grows stronger: Master Ash is Cinder.

EDIT again: Just look at this:

"Just tell me when I hit one you like . . . Federick the Flippant. Frank. Feran. Forue. Fordale. . . ."

Doesn't Kvothe even seem to be edging toward "Ferule" here?

Good points all, but sadly undermined by the fact that you STOLE MY DISPLAY NAME (sort of) :)

Damn, didn't realize.

Sooo... fight to the death?

[The Iceman of the North]

There you have it. If the wind picking the name isn't enough to convince us of its significance, I don't think anything is.

This presumes that in their language, ash have the same two meanings as in English. 'Master Ash' refers to the three, while the Cinder link doesn't.

[Rhaegar's Son]

I've been rereading both books more carefully after finding this thread. Hopefully I'll have some more useful observations in a couple days.

However, considering the current conversation, I couldn't help but run downstairs and offer up this sentence I just read. It comes from our introduction of Bredon (btw, he says, "You may call me Bredon", not "My name is..")

The quote I needed to pass along: "His colors weren't colors at all, merely ash grey and dark charcoal."

I had to laugh a bit.

I am curious about the two animal references that came with the introduction of Bredon: his cane has the snarling wolf's head, and he is described to be peering at Kvothe like an owl.

[Misfortune]

It doesn't make sense for Kvothe to be able to subconsciously name Master Ash. That's not (as I understand it) how naming works. A skilled Namer like Elodin might look at an object and know its name (like the Bloodless). Similarly, Kvothe is able to name Auri after spending a great deal of time with her. But Kvothe hasn't seen Master Ash (or at the very least isn't aware of having done so) and knows almost nothing about him. Being a namer isn't akin to omniscience. All that aside, Cinder's name isn't even Cinder. It's ferule so, as naming goes, Master Ash is way off.

[thistlepong]

Cinder is (probably) the name he's going by, same as Haliax.

On the subject of red herrings, has Kvothe ever been shown to stumble over one of those unconscious names? If not, you should probably be looking at the etymology of Annabelle.

Do the colorful clues line up with the age clues? Kvothe specifically notes Bredon was not elderly by any means.?

Anyway, I still think Grin's right: Bredon cannot be Cinder. Either could be Denna's patron, but they can't share evidence. And too much of that is contrary: owl/wolf v. goat, instant recognizability v. comfortable afternoons. I'm not convinced either way.

I'm leaning toward Alveron; he has the temperament, the wealth, the ambition, the walking stick, Denna name checks him, ash is æ and Maer has jarring meanings, the reason for and evidence of being near Imre (Threpe,) and he sends Kvothe on a suicide mission following his fight with Denna.

Interesting Fact: The Cthaeh bit Cinder.

[Misfortune]

Interesting Fact: The Cthaeh bit Cinder.

That's an interesting idea, at most. And I think it's unlikely. The only connection is that Felurian mentions the Cthaeh biting in the same breath as something with eyes. However, what she says is that "it has not bit you, and your eyes are clear..." suggesting to me that these are separate. She runs her hands over his body, checking for wounds. Finding none, she looks into his eyes, checking for madness.

She follows up by saying "the things the Cthaeh says can leave men borken in their heads. but I would see if it were so." The biting and the madness are separate risks of dealing with the Cthaeh. She checked for biting with her hands, and for madness with her eyes, looking into his. I don't believe that getting bitten by the Cthaeh does anything to your eyes. If it did, why would she feel all over his body rather than just look into his eyes?

Edit:

Cinder is (probably) the name he's going by, same as Haliax.

That's exactly the point. Naming isn't concerned with calling names, just true names.

[StefanH]

I'm pretty sure it hasn't been mentioned (apologies if it has). I was wondering if any others here noticed the Cthaeth sort of "sidestepping" one of Kvothe's questions. Throughout the scene the Cthaeth is kinda reading Kvothe's mind, answering questions before they can be asked. However:

"...Why did they leave you alive? Why because they were sloppy, and because you were lucky, and because something scared them away." What scared them away? I thought numbly. But it was all too much. The things the voice said. My mouth worked silently questioning.

What? the Cthaeth asked. Are you looking for a different why? Are you wondering why I tell you these things?..."

Heh, make of that what you want, there might be something in it, maybe not. :P