The Wise Man's Fear III [Spoilers and Speculation within]

[Gaston de Foix]

It seems there are little bits and pieced from all the world mythologies that were pieced together to build the story. Egyptian ideas of the soul talk of how every person is born with a secret name. The Egyptian story of Osiris and Isis mirrors that of Lanre and Lyra, the god known as Set may be a reference to Iax and Horus is definitely the inspiration for Selitos. Homer's Illiad (also known as The Song of Ilion) and Greek myth about Hercules talk of how an Oracle was sought out by Hercules and that interaction led to Hercules going on 12 tasks of atonement. In Hindu, the tale of Indra has more parallels than any other I've seen yet. Here's the link to the juicy stuff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vala_(Vedic)

Update 1: Also, the 10th of Hercules' 12 labors is to capture the "Cattle of Geryon". Many parts are very similar to the story linked above, including references to cattle.

Update 2: Many of the 12 tasks can be roughly related to the events that take place after Kvothe speaks with the Cthae. Notably, the 5th labor requires him to clean the Augean stables, where there were more 'cattle' than anywhere else in the world. I think it's safe to say, this is a reference to the Archives, and that cattle are being interpreted as books.

Update 3: The 9th labor sends Herc to the 'Amazons' (Adem), they are worried he has come to steal something of theirs, and he narrowly escapes with his life. Notably, it involves a character named Penthesilea (Penthe?)

Osiris and Isis does seem to bear a faint resemblance to Lanre and Lyra. Indra just has me completely befuddled.

The oracles in Greek myths are very different from the Ctaeth, I doubt they will help us.

I like the open format version document. Just two suggestions. We should make it alphabetical if it's words, and chronological if it's phrases. I've added a category or two and a couple of phrases, but obviously a lot more work needs to be done.

[Teri]

Forgive me then, Grinachu. I thought you were stating that we can't make the Ash -> Cinder connection because the tree ash and the substance ash might have different words in Aturan. I was just pointing out examples like Tempi being related to iron and anger, as well as Lackey meaning Lack-key and also lackey would render such an argument moot.

I agree, in fact, it is quite possible that one of the reasons Rothfuss throws in so many of those puns and etymologies is precisely to demonstrate to us that it is safe to assume we can attach the same sets of multiple meanings to homonyms that we are familiar with in English, so that we won't discount the clues he's dropping. (And the reason that he has a very hefty translator's guide that he will not let anyone see, because he wants to ensure that the translators give the same kind of clues.)

I'm pretty confident of the Master Ash = Cinder identification. I think the line from page 983 "Nothing but ash and cinder remained from the morning's fire" is there mainly to draw the reader's attention to the fact that Ash and Cinder are synonyms.

[So1ar]

I'm really curious how this story will end. I mean there is one book to go (assuming he keeps it a trilogy) and Kvothe seems a long ways away from catching us up to the present day. Will the story just end when Kvothe finishes telling it to the Chronicler and the last page of the book is the "silence of three parts"?

anyways, Bast mentions that the Chandrian are still out and about so apparently Kvothe doesn't stop them. Maybe he puts the boots to Cinder later on though.

also, is denna a prostitue giving some noble the "girlfriend experience"? it makes no sense to me how she makes a living without giving it up

[Gaston de Foix]

I'm pretty confident of the Master Ash = Cinder identification. I think the line from page 983 "Nothing but ash and cinder remained from the morning's fire" is there mainly to draw the reader's attention to the fact that Ash and Cinder are synonyms.

Cinder and Ash are not synonyms. Cinder is coal which hasn't fully combusted and become ash. Rothfuss is too good a writer to use two words with the same meaning in the same sentence since it would be redundant, especially given the significance he attaches to both words in the Chronicles. I think the sentence is a great spot, actually, because it further confirms there is a relationship between the two men. Which makes sense actually, since Cinder is up to something in the woods in Vintas, and we know Bredon has some kind of interest/fascination with the Chandrian from NOTW.

[thistlepong]

I'm pretty confident of the Master Ash = Cinder identification. I think the line from page 983 "Nothing but ash and cinder remained from the morning's fire" is there mainly to draw the reader's attention to the fact that Ash and Cinder are synonyms.

I continue to struggle with the 1:1 comparison. Literally they only converge at one point, but are distinctly associated with other meanings in the text. And having them side by side tends to highlight their differences as well as their similarities.

If Cinder is Denna's patron, we have to assume she knows. I don't think it's safe to assume he can casually hide both the sign (cold) and the eyes. Not that the Seven employing a proxy makes any more sense, mind you.

Osiris and Isis does seem to bear a faint resemblance to Lanre and Lyra. Indra just has me completely befuddled.

The oracles in Greek myths are very different from the Ctaeth, I doubt they will help

I tend to think he's using broad strokes, so whatever descent into the underworld you're familiar with, that's the one you'll see. Campbell's Monomyth might be a better place to start. Frankly, Lanre's much further along that path than Kvothe.

I had a random question.

You thought of her too, I'm guessing. In between the swimming and the strawberries and the rest.

-the Cthaeh

Why would it guess?

[jurble]

The Cthaeh isn't really an oracle, he's Dunyain, his predictions are all based on the Probability Trance.

[Gaston de Foix]

I continue to struggle with the 1:1 comparison. Literally they only converge at one point, but are distinctly associated with other meanings in the text. And having them side by side tends to highlight their differences as well as their similarities.

If Cinder is Denna's patron, we have to assume she knows. I don't think it's safe to assume he can casually hide both the sign (cold) and the eyes. Not that the Seven employing a proxy makes any more sense, mind you.

I tend to think he's using broad strokes, so whatever descent into the underworld you're familiar with, that's the one you'll see. Campbell's Monomyth might be a better place to start. Frankly, Lanre's much further along that path than Kvothe.

I had a random question.

You thought of her too, I'm guessing. In between the swimming and the strawberries and the rest.

-the Cthaeh

Why would it guess?

Good question. I noticed this too. The Ctaeth cannot infer states of minds or thoughts. It repeatedly mistakes Kvothe's state of mind/meaning in the conversation see the bit "a different why...". I am not sure how much this is a limitation on its ability to influence the future. By the same logic, insofar as it can speak about Denna's state of mind, it is an inference based on future behaviour. It would be surprising if there wasn't an at least temporary relationship between Kvothe and Denna in Doors of Stone, but this kind of confirms it.

[The Warmth of Winter]

I had a random question.

You thought of her too, I'm guessing. In between the swimming and the strawberries and the rest.

-the Cthaeh

Why would it guess?

I didn't literally make a guess. The Ctaeh knows exactly what it needs to say to manipulate whoever it talks to. It wanted to make Kvothe feel bad for not thinking about Denna. It was perfectly phrased to hurt Kvothe, as shown by his reaction. The Ctaeh knew perfectly well that Kvothe never spent a single thought on Denna while with Felurian. All in all it was what you'd expect from an evil, manipulating being hunched up in a big tree

[thistlepong]

It's not excatly what I would expect, but I have little experience being a fictional Faen inhabitant with the gift of seeing...

It says: "I am Cthaeh." Kvothe says" "It called itself a Cthaeh." Felurian and Bast call it "the Cthaeh."

Is this significant?

Felurian asks in order: "did you speak?" "did you ask of it?" (she searches for a bite) "are you well?"

So it can speak, it can answer, and it can bite.

Kvothe's experience suggests:

1. it can inititate conversation
   
2. it's under some constraint regarding what it can say
   
   It really wants Kvothe to ask a question
   
   
   It's profoundly satisfied when he agrees to

   
   

3. it's under no obligation to answer specifically
   
   It doesn't answer about the Amyr
   
   
   It drives the conversation to the Chandrian

   
   

• The scent of the tree is profoundly attractive
  
• The flowers are panacea
  
• The Sithe are supposed to guard the clearing
  

How would anyone without the gift of seeing evaluate the extent to which the gift was present?

-probably irrelevant, but maybe not

Does it affect the future or merely make folks feel awful about that they're going to do anyway?

-Kvothe didn't get much information that weren't confirmations

I'd say it was a twice-in-a-lifetime opportunity meeting up with him again.

-poor word choice?

-or Kvothe won't see him again?

[Rhaegar's Son]

I'd say it was a twice-in-a-lifetime opportunity meeting up with him again.

-poor word choice?

-or Kvothe won't see him again?

Honestly, would has too many subtle layers of meaning to give us a clear answer.

I just noticed the last word of the quote, however.

Including 'again' in this sentence means that it was a twice-in-a-lifetime opportunity to meet him AFTER their first meeting. Thus, after the first encounter with Cinder, he met Bredon and met the bandit.

Further, by including the past tense 'was', the sentence does not exclude future encounters.

About Cinder =/= Ash, the distinction should further their connection, methinks. Indeed, the natural progression for cinder is to become ash.

[Misfortune]

Honestly, would has too many subtle layers of meaning to give us a clear answer.

I just noticed the last word of the quote, however.

Including 'again' in this sentence means that it was a twice-in-a-lifetime opportunity to meet him AFTER their first meeting. Thus, after the first encounter with Cinder, he met Bredon and met the bandit.

Further, by including the past tense 'was', the sentence does not exclude future encounters.

About Cinder =/= Ash, the distinction should further their connection, methinks. Indeed, the natural progression for cinder is to become ash.

I would be amazed if subconscious naming worked like that. Kvothe knows almost nothing about Denna's patron at the time that the name is picked. Let's draw an analogy to a more mundane context. Denna says she's seeing someone socially. He's a bit older, and very private. Kvothe immediately tells her the man's name. Seems a little ridiculous, doesn't it? Because that's not how naming works.

You could say that Kvothe subconsciously picks up similarities to Cinder, someone he's already met, and picks a similar name. Except that Cinder seems neither private nor old. In fact, the only reason that people seem to think that Cinder=Ash is that Kvothe picked the name, because otherwise there are absolutely no similarities. It's way too weak a connection.

[Gaston de Foix]

Honestly, would has too many subtle layers of meaning to give us a clear answer.

I just noticed the last word of the quote, however.

Including 'again' in this sentence means that it was a twice-in-a-lifetime opportunity to meet him AFTER their first meeting. Thus, after the first encounter with Cinder, he met Bredon and met the bandit.

Further, by including the past tense 'was', the sentence does not exclude future encounters.

About Cinder =/= Ash, the distinction should further their connection, methinks. Indeed, the natural progression for cinder is to become ash.

Actually if you are just thinking about the relationship between Kvothe and Cinder and the Ctaeth's effect on it, the Ctaeth seems to believe it has redirected Kvothe in a manner that means he will be snapping on Cinder's heels.

[Rhaegar's Son]

I would be amazed if subconscious naming worked like that. Kvothe knows almost nothing about Denna's patron at the time that the name is picked. Let's draw an analogy to a more mundane context. Denna says she's seeing someone socially. He's a bit older, and very private. Kvothe immediately tells her the man's name. Seems a little ridiculous, doesn't it? Because that's not how naming works.

You could say that Kvothe subconsciously picks up similarities to Cinder, someone he's already met, and picks a similar name. Except that Cinder seems neither private nor old. In fact, the only reason that people seem to think that Cinder=Ash is that Kvothe picked the name, because otherwise there are absolutely no similarities. It's way too weak a connection.

Choosing the horse's name and Auri's, Kvothe did not even know the meaning of the names he was giving...and apparently both are great choices. Why is it so impossible to believe he could give a fitting name based on what he hears from Denna? Of course, he would have to listen (even listen to the silence of her lacking description) to give this name...

But as has been pointed out, Kvothe chose the name less than did the wind. The wind has kept him out of trouble and even saved his life. Why should it not help him in choosing a name for an individual, especially if that naming could help Kvothe in the future (assuming Kvothe realizes the significance)?

[Misfortune]

Choosing the horse's name and Auri's, Kvothe did not even know the meaning of the names he was giving...and apparently both are great choices. Why is it so impossible to believe he could give a fitting name based on what he hears from Denna? Of course, he would have to listen (even listen to the silence of her lacking description) to give this name...

But as has been pointed out, Kvothe chose the name less than did the wind. The wind has kept him out of trouble and even saved his life. Why should it not help him in choosing a name for an individual, especially if that naming could help Kvothe in the future (assuming Kvothe realizes the significance)?

It is implied that Kvothe very much did know the meaning of Auri's name. He looked at Auri and thought of sunshine. Being a nascent namer, he instinctively knew the name of sunshine, or at least a piece of it. Imma write the horse off as a coincidence.

Also, I cannot recall any instances of the wind helping Kvothe out in the first book. It only happens in the second book, after he's gotten a decent grasp on its name. At the point where a leaf blows into his face, the wind had done nothing for him. I could be wrong, I lent the book out to a friend, and so I can't check. But I'm pretty sure...

Edit: Actually, I don't even need to write the horse off. Kvothe's sleeping mind, being so much smarter than his waking mind, noticed that the horse was dyed. Kvothe subconsciously knew that keth-selhan or whatever it was meant one-sock and put 2 and 2 together. Now let's run that for Ash and Cinder.

In all of Kvothe's confirmed adventures in subconscious naming, he identifies a property of the object and gives it a name related to that property. What were Cinder's most striking properties? Coldness, cruelty, grace. None of which have anything to do with Ash.

Also, Cinder is a calling name. Master Ash has nothing to do with his true name. So how would we get there by naming?

[Seiche]

1. Pretty worldbuilding. This is in a way the most straightforward explanation. We don't need to know the meaning of "gremmen" or "Auri" or "Valaritas" or if we do need to know the meaning of those words, it is just because significant plot points hinge on those words and other words such as the song Dedan sings about Felurian which is a whole four lines of Fae language don't contain information about plot. If Rothfuss has been slipshod or lazy, they might not even be translatable because they've just been made up for the occaison.

2. A treasure hunt. This would be most like Navani's notebook in A Way of Kings, which was decoded after the book was published. That is to say there is a significant (or multiple significant plot points) of information stuck in apparently meaningless script and a resourceful reader or a super resourceful reader or a community would be able to decode and in fact be consciously invited to try by the author and gain a deeper understanding of the plot as a reward or at the very least the novel they were reading and the world created.

3. Consistent world building with structural clues. In this explanation the languages all have an internal logic and if not grammar, at least vocabulary. There isn't a treasure hunt element to it consciously implanted by the author, but the telling of the story requires the author to place certain guns on the mantle, to use certain words in certain contexts of his invented vocabulary, and it is possible to notice certain linkages and infer certain important things about the world and possibly the plot because he has done things whether in a self-aware manner or not.

Very nicely presented.

I was happy to attend a recent PR tour date and he was asked about the languages in his world. He stated quite clearly that he did not create any functioning languages the way we think of Tolkien's Elvish or Star Trek's Klingon. Rather he described a desire to have the words 'sound' like a language, rather than actually be one. For me, this rules out Option 3 pretty concretely and also makes Option 2 unlikely.

Knowing that PR is well read and has wide and varied interests, I find it quite likely that he creates some words with various roots to add depth to the text, as many in these threads have pointed out. But in general, we should not expect that the languages or even words within a single language are related in a strict sense.

This leave's me feeling that Option 1 above is closest to the truth. Even for a simple passage of a few sentences in another language, I don't think PR has a translation of that sentence written down word for word somewhere. I feel it's a bit demanding to classify this approach as lazy (I'd rather say that the creation of a consistent and functioning language is extraordinary), but I do think that most of the words in the made up languages are simply...made up.

[thistlepong]

Rather he described a desire to have the words 'sound' like a language, rather than actually be one. For me, this rules out Option 3 pretty concretely and also makes Option 2 unlikely.

I don't think that precludes any of the options. Option 3 really only requires something like rhinna/rhinata/rhinta to have a relationship and a common referent meaningful to the story. Option 2, if I read it correctly, is more or less an extraordinary task like creating an alphabet and a basic grammar would be. Option 1 exists everywhere to some extent.

Consider the description of the shamble-men copied a page back. Compare and contrast it with the descriptions of draugar, the beggar mistaken for one in Kvothe's Faeriniel story, and the mercenary who kills Shep. Then recall Abenthy's conversation about superstition with Laurian and Arliden. Or for a simpler example, take Kote.

I dunno. Anyone who uses made up words has to answer to Tolkien, and few can boast that sort or effort. However there's a difference between making sure "tu nia vor ruhlan" looks sufficiently different from "Chan Vaen edan Kote" and simply printing gibberish. Perhaps I missed the point, though.

[lanceschaubert]

I don't think that precludes any of the options. Option 3 really only requires something like rhinna/rhinata/rhinta to have a relationship and a common referent meaningful to the story. Option 2, if I read it correctly, is more or less an extraordinary task like creating an alphabet and a basic grammar would be. Option 1 exists everywhere to some extent.

Consider the description of the shamble-men copied a page back. Compare and contrast it with the descriptions of draugar, the beggar mistaken for one in Kvothe's Faeriniel story, and the mercenary who kills Shep. Then recall Abenthy's conversation about superstition with Laurian and Arliden. Or for a simpler example, take Kote.

I dunno. Anyone who uses made up words has to answer to Tolkien, and few can boast that sort or effort. However there's a difference between making sure "tu nia vor ruhlan" looks sufficiently different from "Chan Vaen edan Kote" and simply printing gibberish. Perhaps I missed the point, though.

Well said. Though I doubt Rothfuss is the Rowling-type (planning out every detail of the story-he's said so in interviews), he's so often talking about the depth & layers & facets of things & showing all of that through his characters, through their complexity, through the double-entendre of various stories or poems that I highly doubt when it came to language he'd make something completely meaningless save but for the phonetics involved.

Don't get me wrong, he's skilled with phonemes and pangrams, but the dude's a poet and an intricate storyteller long before he kneels to mere speech-sounds.

[lanceschaubert]

This is why I think we need to create a glossary. It would be a structured way to at least try and see whether we get anywhere in translating Felurian's four lines of song or Valaritas. I can't really promise that we will, but that's sort of the point. Until we embark on this exercise we can't say whether (1) or (2) or (3) or some variation thereof are true. Obviously I don't have the time or energy to do this on my own and even if I did this would benefit from being a cumulative enterprise. Any takers?

Totally missed this part, and second the motion.

[lanceschaubert]

You're asking me to show my work? Here's the non-speculative stuff.

As Grin pointed out Blac meant battle in Skarpi’s story. Nonetheless it also meant shining. An explosive word like Tor requires some diligence; thanks to Flare and Decius more than I thought. Ultimately though, a tor is a tor. And the Sheer is a tor; and sheer once meant shining. It’s also proximate to a tor through which one might abscond, or have absconded.

Not so much to show your work, but the point. But yeah, that helped, thanks.

As for the massive reverberating payoff, I'm not necessarily after anything. I noticed some imagery, noticed his interest in alchemy, noticed how often Kvothe refers to Sim as a sort of rock for him to stand on, someone he can count on to be good, noticed how sim talks down to kvothe about alchemy.

I'm more curious than certain, more pensive than prescriptive, more asking for help than giving advice. Sorry if that came off wrong, definitely not my intent...

[thistlepong]

Not so much to show your work, but the point. But yeah, that helped, thanks.

As for the massive reverberating payoff, I'm not necessarily after anything. I noticed some imagery, noticed his interest in alchemy, noticed how often Kvothe refers to Sim as a sort of rock for him to stand on, someone he can count on to be good, noticed how sim talks down to kvothe about alchemy.

I meant no disrespect there. I'm actually fond of your interpretation, so thanks. Sheer actually calls out in a couple other ways: literally "a turning of the tide," which is precisely what Skarpi called it; and "pure, free from adulterant." Cinder being associated with mercury and meaning slag or dross sort of strengthened that last one. Regarding the payoff, I was thinking more along the lines of the text continually suggesting the story might end before the final return.