The Wise Man's Fear IV (SPOILERS)

[Gaston de Foix]

In some Kvotheworld myths amber rings provide control over demons. Wil brings it up when they were wishing for things by the greystone "I want a magical horse that fits in my pocket, and a ring of red amber that gives me power over demons."

The people telling Kvothe-stories at the inn before Denna shows up with her asthma attack mention amber, "There at the bar, I learned many things. Apparently, I owned a ring of amber which could force demons to obey me."

And Felurian mentions gifting men with amber, but she doesn't say what it's used for, "would my sweet poet like a shaed?...another I would gift with amber, bind a scabbard tight with glamour, or craft a crown so men might look on you with love."

I find it interesting that amber and copper are similar colors. Felurian says copper knives work to keep away fae, but copper also works against namers, at least it worked for awhile against Elodin.

The Amyr on the vase had a copper shield. To guard agains fae or against namers?

Chrispin, I agree with all of this. But if you read Wilem's quote you will see that it is red amber specifically that that has this power. None of the other quotes suggest the colour of the amber is significant, but I don't think there is a connection between the properties of amber and the properties of copper (which looks significantly different from red amber anyhow...)

[Gaston de Foix]

4(and the most credible one) Notice how all the things on the left hand are solid, whereas the ones on the right hand are liquid(ice is water after all). Maybe Namers wear the rings of Names that are more solid, less changing on their left hands, and the rings of Names of things that are everchanging (wind, blood, water...) on their right hand. As these are obviously harder to find, they are put on the right hand and that explains Elodin's quote.

What AverageGuy said about first and second hand.

It doesn't follow that ever changing names are harder to find. the traditional path to follow in learning naming was to learn the Name of the Wind first.

[Sylvester]

What AverageGuy said about first and second hand.

It doesn't follow that ever changing names are harder to find. the traditional path to follow in learning naming was to learn the Name of the Wind first.

If I remember well, they were encouraged to find it precisely because it wa sdifficult to find, and so the other ones would seem easier after that. But that's just my interpretation. It can be completely wrong.

The part about first and second hand. I just reread it and it does seem to crush all my pretty theories. But then, I thought: why would a rhyme say first and second instead of left and right? If we accept the rhyme as exact, couldn't it mean that, following what Elodin said about right and left hand, that the first hand is the left one, and the right hand is the second one, chronologically? That would at least have some sense, no?

And to come back to the matter of Kvothe's hands: did anyone notice which hand seemed to have lost its power first? The left one, or the right one?

[thistlepong]

If I remember well, they were encouraged to find it precisely because it wa sdifficult to find, and so the other ones would seem easier after that. But that's just my interpretation. It can be completely wrong.

The part about first and second hand. I just reread it and it does seem to crush all my pretty theories. But then, I thought: why would a rhyme say first and second instead of left and right? If we accept the rhyme as exact, couldn't it mean that, following what Elodin said about right and left hand, that the first hand is the left one, and the right hand is the second one, chronologically? That would at least have some sense, no?

And to come back to the matter of Kvothe's hands: did anyone notice which hand seemed to have lost its power first? The left one, or the right one?

I agree with AverageGuy that the rhyme provides no idea which hand is which. I think chrispin pointed out something interesting as well: Kvothe's story acquired the amber ring without him. I suppose that calls into question whether he reliably learns any names. We have some pretty good examples of him calling the wind, but at the moment the existence of the wring is sort of smirkingly uncertain.

Sylvester, you're right. Elodin does imply that the name of the wind makes other names easier, presumably because its ever changing name is more difficult to grasp. I think the rhyme simply works better with first/second rather than left/right. Perhaps it's a reference to the Adem: "This hand (right) is strong. This hand (left) is clever." in that case I'd say the names he knows are blood...nameless 'cause he probably wouldn't wear bulky rings on his fretting hand. The left is the one he worries over in the frame story, and the one he swears on in the narrative.

[AverageGuy]

Edit: Never mind, thistlepong got it.

[Niamh?]

Right oh then, this theory kinda came to me last night when I couldn't sleep. It makes some sort of sense to my sleep addled brain but I don't have my copy of the book, i've lent it to my sister in Scotland so i'm not getting it back soon :(, so I can't confirm or write it off yet.

What if shaping is the magic Denna was talking about when she asked about writing things down?

From what I understand about naming, in it's simpliest form, it is learning the name of something, speaking it and then the 'thing' does something it wouldn't otherwise do i.e. change windspeed, direction.

So, what if a namer was to write down this name and while she/he was writing it had a specific 'change' in mind. Should that permanently alter the 'thing' at least until the writing is destroyed?

I so wish I could phrase this better! It's so frustrating. I don't know if there are any quotes to back this up. Probably not thought so feel free to write this off as the ramblings of a lunatic :D

Go raibh maith agat :D

[Gaston de Foix]

I agree with AverageGuy that the rhyme provides no idea which hand is which. I think chrispin pointed out something interesting as well: Kvothe's story acquired the amber ring without him.

I think applying the principle of Occam's razor, that the simplest explanation is the likeliest. Fela wears her naming ring on her left hand. Kvothe wears the names he knows on him his left hand too and those are wind/air, blood, ice, flame and the nameless one. The right hand has the rings traditionally worn in Vintas. Is there anything in the Wise Man's Fear which indicates which hand Kvothe wore the Maer's ring/which hand Stapes wore the Maer's ring?

[chrispin]

What if shaping is the magic Denna was talking about when she asked about writing things down?

From what I understand about naming, in it's simpliest form, it is learning the name of something, speaking it and then the 'thing' does something it wouldn't otherwise do i.e. change windspeed, direction.

So, what if a namer was to write down this name and while she/he was writing it had a specific 'change' in mind. Should that permanently alter the 'thing' at least until the writing is destroyed?

Interesting. I think I also read an earlier post suggesting just as sygaldry is a form of sympathy, there might be a written form of naming. So far Denna seems to be trying to shape the world around her/how people react to her using the knots. Maybe the knots on the Lockless box say the Yllish equivalent of "these aren't the droids you're looking for"

I do think there are more magics than have been explained so far: the ones that created the ever-burning lamp, warding stones, Adem swords, possibly that created the cthaeh or gave it its power, as well as all the doors/boxes.

I keep wondering if naming and shaping aren't the same thing. It seems to be a continuum instead of a sharp line. Is naming as learned at the university aimed at mastery over a thing or is it listening to a thing and asking for assistance? Is there a difference? Felurian said the war was between the knowers and the shapers. The cave-man in Jax's story sounds like a knower. He listen to the knots and asked them to open. Jax is a shaper. He went after what he wanted, followed it. The university seems to be teaching the Jax method of naming, following the wind instead of sitting in a cave and listening for it. Selitos et al call themselves namers, but are they knowers or shapers?

As an aside, my favorite part of the book is when Eloden is talking to Kvothe about naming and calls over another student using his name. Even everyday names have power. Fela is a sculptor. Maybe she's learning shaping, first by doing it the mundane way and then by magic. She's the best namer in their class.

[Sylvester]

Right oh then, this theory kinda came to me last night when I couldn't sleep. It makes some sort of sense to my sleep addled brain but I don't have my copy of the book, i've lent it to my sister in Scotland so i'm not getting it back soon :(, so I can't confirm or write it off yet.

What if shaping is the magic Denna was talking about when she asked about writing things down?

From what I understand about naming, in it's simpliest form, it is learning the name of something, speaking it and then the 'thing' does something it wouldn't otherwise do i.e. change windspeed, direction.

So, what if a namer was to write down this name and while she/he was writing it had a specific 'change' in mind. Should that permanently alter the 'thing' at least until the writing is destroyed?

I so wish I could phrase this better! It's so frustrating. I don't know if there are any quotes to back this up. Probably not thought so feel free to write this off as the ramblings of a lunatic :D

Go raibh maith agat :D

That seems an interesting idea, however, I don't see how a Name could be written down, considering its complexity and the fact that some change by themselves (like the wind).

But an interesting thing to discuss could be how did Denna hear of this kind of magic. Was it when researching Lanre's story (in which case, it could still be shaping), or perhaps even before that?

And coming back to the 6 kinds of magic PR said existed and that we knew only 5, what would they be?

1)Naming

2)Sygaldry

3)Alchemy

4)Sympathy

5)Shaping?

6)Writing things down?

Apart from the Faerie kinds of magic, am I forgetting anything?

[thistlepong]

That seems an interesting idea, however, I don't see how a Name could be written down, considering its complexity and the fact that some change by themselves (like the wind).

But an interesting thing to discuss could be how did Denna hear of this kind of magic. Was it when researching Lanre's story (in which case, it could still be shaping), or perhaps even before that?

And coming back to the 6 kinds of magic PR said existed and that we knew only 5, what would they be?

1)Naming

2)Sygaldry

3)Alchemy

4)Sympathy

5)Shaping?

6)Writing things down?

Apart from the Faerie kinds of magic, am I forgetting anything?

The more I think about it the more likely this list seems:

1. Sympathy^{invented at the University}
   
2. Sygaldry^{presumably older than Sympathy? (degraded grammarie?)}
   
3. Alchemy^{emphasized a couple times that it's not fancy chemistry}
   
4. Naming^{equivalent to what Selitos, Lanre/Haliax, and Elodin do}
   
5. Glamourie^{Faen magic of illusions seeming}
   
6. Grammarie^{Faen magic of creating, likely the Shaping of the past (attributable to grinachu)}
   

I'd love for the knots to be magic, but we have six right there in the story. It doesn't preclude using Grammarie/Shaping to capture part of a name (as in Jax.) If it can be said, it's at least possible it can be written.

In Felurian's story, the "shapers, proud dreamers" create Faen as a place to work. And the Fae at present lose power when they leave. We have some evidence that simply being there acts as an amplifier when Kvothe defeats her. Even so, Bast is able to use Grammarie in the Four Corners, but it's probably easier in Faen.

Occam's Razor and all that.

[Gaston de Foix]

The more I think about it the more likely this list seems:

1. Sympathy^{invented at the University}
   
2. Sygaldry^{presumably older than Sympathy? (degraded sygaldry?}
   
   ...
   
   

I'm glad I convinced you, Thistle ;). My guess about sygaldry is that it was discovered after sympathy and it was a way to make sympathy work permanently through runes.

The biggest weakness in what we've proposed in terms of magic systems is that there are a lot of clues that writing is in some sense effective as magic beyond sygaldry.

My thought there is

(1) that the writing your true Name in certain materials and in a certain manner is a way of protecting your Name

(2) the Yllish magic that Denna is apparently practising is irrelevant because she is being fooled by her patron, Bredon. We see no evidence of any actual effect of the magic she is practising.

If you buy these two propositions I think you can justifiably explain most of the references to writing as a form of magic in the book.

Whatever magic Felurian works into creating the Shaed, I doubt very much it involves writing things down! And the Shaed is definitely an act of grammarie as is what Bast is doing with the Elderberry and the soldiers.

A major difference between grammarie and glamourie seems to be the time taken to perform it, Bast can perform glamours almost instantaneously but grammarie takes both Bast and Felurian a long time and some very specific acts to create the object they want.

but if you look at the clues even in jest of Kvothe's story about Chronicler, and the knots on the Loeclos box, as well as all the Denna related clues there is something going on with knots and Yll.

Southern Yll was never conquered by the Aturan Empire which I find suggestive.

Kvothe dreams of learning sailor's knots in NOTW immediately after the death of his parents which he never did, IN Hespe's story of Jax and Teccam (yes, I'm calling him Teccam, I don't care if no one else buys it!) has Teccam persuading the knots to unravel when Jax fails to do so, there are all the clues about Denna and knots and there are what are said to might be Yllish knots on the Loeclos box.

If there is a genuine knot magic we will need to either call sygaldry a specialised branch of sympathy or kick alchemy off the list.

Oops Chrispin, I just read your post and realised you had made many of the same points as me. Sorry for not realising and engaging/attributing...

[thistlepong]

Knots, bindings, locks...

This is a little random.

Grinachu, I don't have a compelling reason why someone with the ability to weave a cloak from shadows, star twinkles, and moonbeams couldn't write a name, say on a pane of glass, and bind and protect it there. Similarly weaving a pattern into a knot that compells folk toward a belief doesn't seem beyond such an individual. Or, simply put, there's enough "wizard did it" built into Grammarie to allow fancy knots if needed.

Denna and knots:

Learned Yllish (presumably with more skill than Kvothe)

Learned sailors' knots (sa: letter)

Kvothe and knots:

Dreamed of Ben teaching him sailors knots (never happened)

Studied Yllish (one term)

Failed to learn sailors' knots (sailing home from Severen) but is handy at untying them

[Gaston de Foix]

Knots, bindings, locks...

This is a little random.

Grinachu, I don't have a compelling reason why someone with the ability to weave a cloak from shadows, star twinkles, and moonbeams couldn't write a name, say on a pane of glass, and bind and protect it there. Similarly weaving a pattern into a knot that compells folk toward a belief doesn't seem beyond such an individual. Or, simply put, there's enough "wizard did it" built into Grammarie to allow fancy knots if needed.

Denna and knots:

Learned Yllish (presumably with more skill than Kvothe)

Learned sailors' knots (sa: letter)

Kvothe and knots:

Dreamed of Ben teaching him sailors knots (never happened)

Studied Yllish (one term)

Failed to learn sailors' knots (sailing home from Severen) but is handy at untying them

I like your idea of knots in the shaed. That never occurred to me. Although of course nothing Bast was doing had even a little to do with knots. Did you kindle search for knots? I shall be hopping mad if Bast was pointing with a knotted stick and I failed to spot it.

even more random aside

"Cyae tsien?" - the two words of Yllish from NOTW. Doesn't that sound a little like the random Faerie/ancient languages we come across?

[Spaceman Hobbes]

I'm glad I convinced you, Thistle . My guess about sygaldry is that it was discovered after sympathy and it was a way to make sympathy work permanently through runes.

The biggest weakness in what we've proposed in terms of magic systems is that there are a lot of clues that writing is in some sense effective as magic beyond sygaldry.

My thought there is

(1) that the writing your true Name in certain materials and in a certain manner is a way of protecting your Name

What if sygaldry has much more power than we've currently seen. Kilvin won't give Kvothe access to certain runes because he could accidentally cause serious bodily harm to someone with them. In and of itself this suggests that under the right circumstances sygaldry could be as or more dangerous than sympathy. And that's just using runes like bone.

But what if there is a aspect of sympathy beyond that? What if, for example, runes could be made to refer to specific people. Are the runes of sygaldry based in the art of naming? The question with sygaldry is how specific the runes can get. If we get to the point where specific people can targeting by sygaldry, endless possibilities abound.

[thistlepong]

I like your idea of knots in the shaed. That never occurred to me. Although of course nothing Bast was doing had even a little to do with knots. Did you kindle search for knots? I shall be hopping mad if Bast was pointing with a knotted stick and I failed to spot it.

even more random aside

"Cyae tsien?" - the two words of Yllish from NOTW. Doesn't that sound a little like the random Faerie/ancient languages we come across?

I didn't search for knots; that's not a bad idea.

Cyae - Cyaerbasalien. Weird.

Bast does weave the holly crown, but I didn't really mean to draw a direct link between basketweaving and Grammarie. I'm still kind of attached to Kilvin's ancient trinkets being Grammarie/shaping artifacts.

[Who's on Third]

I didn't search for knots; that's not a bad idea.

Cyae - Cyaerbasalien. Weird.

Bast does weave the holly crown, but I didn't really mean to draw a direct link between basketweaving and Grammarie. I'm still kind of attached to Kilvin's ancient trinkets being Grammarie/shaping artifacts.

Don't you mean that's "knot" a bad idea?

Sorry. Couldn't help it.

This: "Cyae - Cyaerbasalien. Weird." is a great catch.

Also, how do we know that "Grammerie/Glamourie" are two seperate magics, and not just two sides of the same magical coin? This could account for space left for the "written" magic that Denna is obsessed with. I suspect when she says "written" she may mean "knotted"...although when she talks about it she IS tracing shapes on the table...

[Besselfunction]

Finished reading the book today. I was disappointed and feel like Rothfuss stole my time.

So the book is 1000 pages long. The story, though, could have been told in 400 pages.

The first 400 pages are more or less a repitition of the first book. The only interesting part is the one with the gram.

The time at the Maer's court was interesting enough, so the story should (could!) have moved there much more quickly.

The hunt in the Eld was alright as well, but seemed overstrechted by ~50 pages.

Then the episode with Felurian was nothing more than a teenage-bang-festival fantasy with no contribution to the story, except for the final encouter with the Oracle.

Then finally, the 200 pages with the female Shaolin-monks was stereotypical and dull, even moreso because we already learned most of what is interesting about the mercenaries from Tempi.

In the end the only contribution to the story was that the Chandrian have real names. And Kvothe got a badass sword. Wow.

The killing of the false troupers was the only interesting part in the second half of the book, it was well done, but too short to be a climax.

Things could have become interesting back at the Maer's court, but no, Kvothe has to return to the university to imitate Harry Potter.

And the interludes only emphasized what we already learnt in the first book: Kvothe lost his powers. Bast is trying to bring them back.

In the end, the book ends without having answered ANY significant questions raised by the first volume.

No answers regarding the Amyr/Chandrian, no progress towards being expelled from the university, no progress with Denna. No answers regarding what is going on in Rothfussworld. No goddamn climax or structure. Instead some mystery about locked doors and a locked box - if there's a connection to the overall storyline is by no means clear. At the moment I dont feel like reading another 1000 pages in the hope of finding out.

[Merihathor]

I apologize for not answering this sooner, but have some time now while my daughter is ill and keeping me up at odd hours ;-) Warning: the following message is massive and I apologize sincerely.

Most of my theories about the book center on the tenets of alchemy and how these principles are woven into the novels. I don't have a very firm grasp on alchemy (my only personal touchstone is the cousin, chemistry), so my theory will be full of errors. Also, the books aren't complete, so we have limited information and what we do have is muddled with story and thus elaboration on behalf of both the storytellers and time. Regardless, I'm making an attempt :-)

One prime tenet of alchemy states, "As above, so below." In other words, what exists on one plane of existence must exist on all other planes in order to create a balanced whole. This means that what has happened and what exists in the mortal, waking-mind world, also must exist in the immortal, sleeping-mind world and must also exist in the spiritual world. I'm not sure if all these levels are present in Rothfuss' world, but at least two and possibly three are: the waking-mind world is that which exists outside of Faerie, comprised of the physical and mortal; the sleeping-mind world exists in Faerie primarily, and the spiritual (if this is indeed an aspect of the whole) is embodied (heh!) in Tehlu and the angels.

Another principle in alchemy is the attempt to transmute physical materials into a perfected material, called the philosopher's stone, which in turn serves as the catalyst to transform the base elements within the human soul into a pure, perfected form. All matter has the desire and capability to transform. A classic example is the infamous attempts to transmute lead into gold. This is the magnus opus within alchemy: transformation from baseness into perfection. Alchemy has procedures for transformation, although I won't list them here. However, I will mention that alchemy often used seven specific metals, and these metals fell into four stages of transformation. Please note the numbers seven and four. These numbers, I believe, are crucial and you'll find echoes of them in the books. First, the stages of transformation:

1. Nigredo--associated with blackness, the dark before the dawn, destruction, sorrow, symbolized by the crow, raven and toad;

2. Albedo--associated with whiteness, union of opposites (male/female), symbolized by the white queen, the swan, the moon;

3. Citrinitas--yellowness, the awakening from lunar to solar awareness, awakening, symbolized by the wise old man; (this stage was skipped/removed in later times)

4. Rubedo--red/purple and the final stage, rebirth, perfection, fusion of spirit and matter, wholeness.

Second, the metals, their associations in alchemy, and how they fall into the above progression (going from black to red, baseness to perfection):

1. Lead (chemical symbol: Pb from the Latin, plumbum ["plumbing'])--associated with the planet and god Saturn

2. Tin (Sn from Latin stannum)--associated with the planet and god Jupiter

3. Iron (Fe from Latin ferrus)--associated with the planet and god Mars

4. Copper (Cu from Latin cuprum [for Cyprus, birthplace of Venus])--associated with the planet and goddess Venus

5. Mercury (Hg from Latin hydrargyrum ["liquid water"])--associated with the planet and god Mercury

6. Silver (Ag from Latin argentum ["grey, shining"])--associated with the Moon and goddess Diana

7. Gold (Au from Latin aurum)--associated with the Sun and god Apollo

I'm skipping quite a few things here for the sake of brevity, but you're welcome to research alchemy to flesh the above framework out.

How these metals might relate to the Chandrian:

1. Cyphus is copper

2. Stercus is iron

3. Ferule is mercury

4. Usnea is tin (look up "tin pest" for why I picked this)

5. Dalcenti is lead (lead drove animals mad, thus why I picked this for him)

6. Alenta is silver (chosen due to silver's oxidation behavior and from process of elimination)

7. Alaxel is gold

I drove myself batty trying to align the names and the signs of the Chandrian with each metal. I wanted to assign lead to Alaxel, but ran into problems when I couldn't assign the rest of the metals to each person. Perhaps he *was* gold at one time, but has devolved into lead...I'm not sure.

Now, how does all of this relate to the Cthaeh and Encanis being the same person? In short, my answer goes back to the first alchemical principle: as above, so below. In a nutshell, the Cthaeh is the sleeping-mind, Faerie reflection of the waking-mind, mortal world Encanis. I'm going to have to go around the point a bit longer, so bear with me...I promise I'll get to my point very soon. First, I have to demonstrate that Faerie and the mortal world are reflections connected via waystones. Note: underlined portions are my emphasis.

Page 77, NTW

“Seven things has Lady Lackless

Keeps them underneath her black dress

One a ring that’s not for wearing

(ring of wood/bone?)

One a sharp word, not for swearing

(Ravel? Ruh?)

Right beside her husband’s candle

(don’t know, but makes me think of the Haliax vase image, and sympathy wax)

There’s a door without a handle

(the Lackless door or the Archive door; perhaps they are the same, if the waystones are connected AND the Archive door is a sort of waystone)

In a box, no lid or locks

(the box Jax had but now Kvothe has)

Lackless keeps her husband’s rocks

(again, don’t know, but perhaps power, names, or keys of stone?)

There’s a secret she’s been keeping

(that she’s Netalia?)

She’s been dreaming and not sleeping

(in Faerie or connected to Faerie somehow, via the waystones or the Edema Ruh themselves)

On a road, that’s not for traveling

(the waystones, the Great Stone Road that leads from Imre to the ruins of Myr Tariniel…or so I guess)

Lackless likes her riddle raveling.”

(reference to the Edema Ruh, so the Ruh have something to do with this whole story here, whether via Kvothe’s father, Kvothe himself, or the history of the Edema Ruh/Ruach)

Page 102, NTW

“Like a drawstone even in our sleep

Standing stone by old road is the way

To lead you ever deeper into Fae.

Laystone as you lay in hill or dell

Greystone leads to something something ‘ell’”

(Myr Tariniel or Tariniel)

Page 108, NTW

“Sit and listen all, for I will sing

A story, wrought and forgotten in time

Old and gone. A story of a man.

Proud Lanre, strong as the spring

Steel of the sword he had at ready hand.

Hear how he fought, fell, and rose again,

To fall again. Under shadow falling then.

(cursed by Selitos, cursed by the madness given by the Cthaeh)

Love felled him, love for native land,

And love of his wife Lyra, at whose calling

Some say he rose,

through the doors of death

(through doors of Fae?)

To speak her name as his first reborn breath.”

Page 176, NTW

After the battle was finished and

the enemy was set beyond the doors of stone

, survivors found Lanre’s body, cold and lifeless near the beast he had slain.

From beyond the doors of death Lanre returned.

Lanre had gone mad. Some even said Lanre had killed himself and gone searching for his wife

in the land of the dead.

Page 289, NTW

(in a chapter entitled, “The Flickering Way”)

It was quite by accident that I found the four-plate door…

In spite of these notable lacks, the expanse of grey stone was undoubtedly a door. It simply was. Each copper plate had a hole in its center, and though they were not shaped in the conventional way, they were undoubtedly keyholes.

WNF, Kindle edition (location 13769-76)

“Not wrong, Reshi, catastrophic. Iax spoke to the Cthaeh before he stole the moon, and that sparked the entire creation war. Lanre spoke to the Cthaeh before he orchestrated the betrayal of Myr Tariniel. The creation of the Nameless. The Scaendyne. They can all be traced back to the Cthaeh.

WMF, Kindle edition, location 1362-69

Last was the Archives. Five stories tall and windowless, it reminded me of an enormous waystone.

WMF, Kindle edition, 12641-48

Felurian ahead of me. Into the scrub. I dimly remember the trees, the smell of earth, the grey of moonlit stone.

WMF, Kindle edition, 13843-49

She led me through the forest for hours until we came to a pair of tall greystones. She drew up the hood of my shaed and bid me close my eyes. Then she led me in a brief circle and I felt a subtle change in the air. When I opened my eyes I could tell this forest was not the same one I had been walking through a moment before. The strange tension in the air was gone. This was the mortal world.

WMF, Kindle edition, 16488-95

The hill itself wasn’t particularly high, nor was it steep. But the path to the top cut back and forth in a series of switchbacks. At each corner there was a wide, flat space with a large block of grey stone. There were four corners, four stones, and four red-shirted mercenaries. At the top of the hill stood a tall greystone, familiar as a friend. Beside that stood a small figure in blinding white.

So, I think that the waystones are a door of sorts to get between the waking and sleeping mind (if you go through them alive), but also a barrier between the living (mortal world) and dead. However, the door is locked normally if you die and then go to Faerie as a spirit, unless you can name, are called back by a Namer, or called back by another darker power (example: Lanre). These two worlds are reflections of one another.

When Encanis was caught by Tehlu in Trapis' story, he is bound to the iron wheel and then placed at the base of a tree. I think this is significant, or Rothfuss wouldn't have mentioned it. When Encanis "passes from this world" with Tehlu, he reappears as the Cthaeh in Faerie. The images and symbols and language given to both characters seem to support this:

NTW, page 155

There was one demon that stood above the others. Encanis, the swallowing darkness. No matter where he walked, shadows hid his face, and scorpions that stung him died of the

corruption they had touched

. (which is echoed later when he transforms into the Cthaeh)

NTW, page 160

But there was one demon who eluded Tehlu. Encanis, whose face was all in shadow. Encanis,

whose voice was like a knife in the minds of men

. (just as the Cthaeh corrupts the mind with what he says)

Page 162

And all that night Encanis hung from his wheel and watched them,

motionless as a snake

.

“Try no tricks, dark one. Speak no lies,” Tehlu said sternly, his eyes as dark and hard as the iron of the wheel.

“What then?” Encanis

hissed

, his voice like the rasp of stone on stone. “What? Rack and shatter you, what do you want of me?”

Page 163

“My path then!” Encanis shrieked. “I do not regret! If I had my choice again, I would only change how fast I ran. Your people are like cattle my kind feed on.

Bite

and break you, if you gave me half an hour I would do such things that these wretched gawping peasants would go made with fear. I would drink their children’s blood and bath in women’s tears.” (why bite; this is reminiscent of the Cthaeh biting folks that Felurian mentions)

WMF, Kindle, 13571-79

“

Kyxxs

” the Cthaeh spat an irritated noise. “What is this? Why so guarded? Why the games? Ask me of the Chandrian and have done.” (the sound reminds me of Styx and almost the sound a snake might make, so I include it.)

13579-86

I thought I saw a sinuous motion among the branches

, but it was hidden by the endless, wind-brushed swaying of the tree.

13608-16

The Cthaeh gave a thin, dry chuckle. “

Blood, bracken and bone

, I wish you creatures had the wit to appreciate me…” (why bracken...blood and bone are more visceral, so I can understand that they might hold power and thus be used in a casual curse like this, but bracken? I think because of the evergreen bracken used to kill his mortal self. Also, please note his pattern here of saying a weak sort of curse and compare it to Encanis' pattern when speaking to Tehlu)

To take this a step further, let's compare the names of Encanis and the Cthaeh.

--Why Encanis for a name: look to the myths surrounded the canidae family (dogs, jackals, foxes, etc.) and the underworld/Faerie over mythological history (Anubis, Cerberus, Wild Hunt, werewolves as examples). They are usually associated with the chthonic, underworld and Faerie. Again, the name: Encanis.

--Why then the Cthaeh for a name: this name is vaguely like the world “chthonic.” To quote a Wikipedia article with bits that relate to the story: (full article here--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chthonic)

--Chthonic (from Greek χθόνιος — chthonios, "in, under, or beneath the earth", from χθών — chthōn "earth"[1]; pertaining to the Earth; earthy; subterranean) designates, or pertains to, deities or spirits of the underworld, especially in relation to Greek religion.

*It evokes at once abundance and the grave.

*Some chthonic cults practised ritual sacrifice, which often happened at night time. When the sacrifice was a living creature, the animal was placed in a bothros ("pit") or megaron ("sunken chamber").

*The categories Olympian and chthonic weren't, however, completely separate. Some Olympian deities, such as Hermes and Zeus, also received chthonic sacrifices and tithes in certain locations. The deified heroes Heracles and Asclepius might be worshipped as gods or chthonic heroes, depending on the site and the time of origin of the myth.

*In analytical psychology, the term chthonic was often used to describe the spirit of nature within: manifested in two ways—to create and to destroy.

My notes here: Look at the gods Hermes and Asclepius (take note of Hermes especially, as his reflections appear over and over in the story), and thus how chthonic characteristics are also associated with winged deities, a staff (tree?) and snakes. Snakes in mythology are seen as deceivers, tellers of half-truths (notice the snake in the Garden of Eden does not lie—he tells parts of the truth...just as the Cthaeh does; he was bound to the wheel, which prevented him from lying as Encanis, but this carried over to his incarnation in Faerie as the Cthaeh), and having knowledge of the arcane and obscure. The use of the tree to lean the bound Cthaeh against echoes the staff of Caduceus, the tree in the Garden of Eden, and the World Tree of Norse myth. The pit used in the story echoes the pit used to sacrifice to chthonic deities (see above), and the evergreen used and the self-sacrifice of Tehlu also plays into the chthonic mythos (self-sacrifice on the tree/the cross, and rebirth). The Cthaeh is bound in Faerie to his tree because he was bound in the mortal world to a wheel at the base of a tree, and then sacrificed in a fire of wood. As above, so below—a Hermetic principle popular in alchemy.

Now, why is Encanis not Haliax?

I can very much see why folks think this. I'm tempted to think this too, as the evidence is compelling. However, I think the fourth person that Tehlu strikes in Trapis' story, which releases a demon, is Iax or an Amyr. Why? The demon is cast into the outer darkness--bound beyond an edge if you will. Does this remind you of the one that is bound beyond the doors of stone? Further, the demon emerges from the fourth person Tehlu strikes. Fourth. Looking at the alchemical stages in metal, the fourth metal is copper. How many copper plates are on the door in the Archives? Four. Why four? Why copper? Because four is associated with copper, thus why it is the fourth person struck that reveals the demon. Copper seems to be difficult if not nearly impossible to name, which would prevent a namer from either calling this person back through the door, or the person themselves being able to use their inner power (as Lanre fell victim to) to come through on their own. So, I think that demon is Iax. Haliax/Lanre and Iax have similar imagery in this story because of how they used/gained their naming power.

Finally...someone asked once about the imagery used so much with Denna--her white teeth and red lips. I can guess why--she has all of the three major colors used in alchemical transformation (black, red, white), thus combining them and becoming a type of philosopher's stone (the item thought to initiate spiritual perfection). Her dark eyes/hair, white teeth and red lips. She is perhaps Kvothe's philosopher stone, and perhaps his ascendance/rebirth to an awakened state will appear as a result of interaction with her in the last book. Just a theory, and a poor one at that as I have no hard evidence.

I'm sorry for the length. I could write about why I think Aleph is Skarpi/Sceop, but this is massive enough.

[thistlepong]

That's a fascinating post, Merihathor. Thank you. I'm nowhere near prepared to respond to that. The throwaway at the end struck a chord.

I could write about why I think Aleph is Skarpi/Sceop, but this is massive enough.

I felt this pretty strongly. Enough so that I poked and prodded until Thread III - Post 184. I can't really stand behind it, though; even though I like it.

I noticed a couple things regarding Bast I wanted to share. (One of which relates to alchemy :stunned: )

• Kvothe is teaching Bast Alchemy
  
  Cellum Tinture
  is the only book he keeps from Caudicus's library. He gifts it to Deevi shortly after he returns to the University 'cause it's a useful resource for an alchemist without access to the archives.

  
  

• Bast has enemies
  
  Among the decorations adorning his room, "Rings of horn and leather and woven grass." it might be nothing.

  
  

[ShanRawr]

Wow, Merihathor. That's an amazing post. The Encanis/Cthaeh relationship is very interesting.