The Wise Man's Fear IV (SPOILERS)

[Sylvester]

I think there might be something to the Larne + 7 chandrian. Weren't there eight figures on the golden bowl in NOTW?

Well, in Wise Man's Fear, we learn that there is an Amyr on the vase, and that he isn't part of Chandrian. In addition, Shehyn's story tells us that one of the 7(+1) cities resisted the enemy by remembering the Lethani, so that's probably him.

By the way, I find this a good proof that the Chandrian are clearly the villains in the story: we have to agree that the Lethani is "good", the Amyr remembered the Lethani, so the Amyr are "good" and the Chandrian are not. It does sound a little childish this way but I find it pretty straightforward.

And I find interesting the fact that the Amyr "remembered the Lethani". Couldn't it mean that the Amyr are the Adem nowadays? Notice that as far as I remember, Kvothe never asked any questions on the Amyr in Ademre, probably led to do so (although he may not realize this) by the Chtaeh, who cleverly associated Stormwal and Chandrian so as to make Kvothe forget about the Amyr. What are your opinions on this theory?

[Tears of Lys]

I think you made a point there: in my opinion, at the end of book 3, there will still be many questions unaswered, perhaps even about some key points like the Chandrian. That's why I believe that there will be another trilogy, but probably not with Kvothe anymore.

I find it pretty clear that Kvothe will die, and here's why: You'd notice that all Chronicler's and Bast's attempts to sort of "help" Kvothe fail (except perhaps the one where Kvothe laughs after Chronicler is afraid of Bast), as though it was impossible to help him. And isn't that one of the key characteristics of a tragedy? In fact, Kvothe himself implies that fact several times "We know what kind of story this is. This is no comedy", and I think that that's the main role of the Chtaeh, to say:"this story has a bad ending" and to sort of justify it. That's also why I think we won't hear from the Chtaeh in the third book by the way.

So basically, Kvothe will most certainly die in the third book, and I guess the next trilogy, if there is one, will probably star Chronicler and Bast (and Manet, of course).

I just finished my reread of WMF, and I particularly took note of the exchange between Bast and Chronicler right at the end. Bast's all upset and hopeless about his Reshi having spoken with the Chtaeh (sp?), and pretty much thinks it's all over as far as Kvothe is concerned, whereupon Chronicler smacks him around and gets him to look at things differently.

Then Bast pretty much manling's up and does his thing with the soldiers and the campfire.

Kvothe's saying, "We know what kind of story this is. This is no comedy," is relevant only in showing his current despair. The story isn't finished yet. The Waystone Inn doesn't have to be the ending of Kvothe.

I also found another scene very interesting - the one with Kilvin where he and Kvothe are speaking of "old magics" and he shows him the two spheres that create a wall of protection. I think these will definitely come into play when Kvothe inevitably opens the Doors of Stone and unleashes a shit-storm, presumably on others.

[Merihathor]

I think there might be something to the Larne + 7 chandrian. Weren't there eight figures on the golden bowl in NOTW?

WMF has a better description of the vase. One of the figures is wearing the accoutrements of an Amyr, and Nina says he's the worst of them all:

WMF, Kindle edition (location 5528-35)

I finished unrolling the paper, revealing a third figure, larger than the other two. He wore armor and an open-faced helmet. On his chest was a bright insignia that looked like an autumn leaf, red on the outside brightening to orange near the middle, with a straight black stem.

The skin of his face was tan, but the hand he held poised upright was bright red. His other hand was hidden by a large round object that Nina had somehow managed to color a metallic bronze. I guess it was his shield.

"He's the worst," Nina said, her voice subdued...

Nina tells Kvothe that the metallic object is a copper shield, that his hands were covered in blood and the image on his chest was brighter, as if burning, then:

I recognized him then. It wasn't a leaf on his chest. It was a tower wrapped in flame. His bloody, outstretched hand wasn't demonstrating something. It was making a gesture of rebuke toward Haliax and the rest. He was holding up his hand to stop them. This man was one of the Amyr. One of the Ciridae.

The young girl shivered and pulled her cloak around herself. "I don't like looking at him even now," she said. "They were all awful to look at. But he was the worst. I can't get faces right, but his was terrible grim. He looked so angry. He looked like he was ready to burn down the whole world."

Regarding the Cthaeh: I wondered at one point if the Cthaeh was Encanis, given that he was bound to iron and placed against a tree in the Trapis story. Perhaps they didn't die in his story as all thought, but were reincarnated in Faerie, the land of copper and the spiritual (as above, so below). I admit this is out there for an idea, but I can support it to some degree if anyone wants to hear the argument.

[thistlepong]

Regarding the Cthaeh: I wondered at one point if the Cthaeh was Encanis, given that he was bound to iron and placed against a tree in the Trapis story. Perhaps they didn't die in his story as all thought, but were reincarnated in Faerie, the land of copper and the spiritual (as above, so below). I admit this is out there for an idea, but I can support it to some degree if anyone wants to hear the argument.

I'd love to hear it. I can't see it but I'm interested in what I'm missing.

The physical description of Haliax matches so well with Encanis that it seems unlikely they're not analogues, if not the same entity outright.

I think the stories actually progress in order, revealing history as they're told.

Hespe's - Jax

Felurian's - stealing the moon

Skarpi 1 - The Creation War

Shehyn - The Betrayal (better elaborated than Skarpi 1)

Skarpi 2 - Founding the Amyr

Trapis - Tehlu pursuing Encanis (they'd change his name to avoid calling him)

All mostly true rather than mostly false.

One thing that's been bugging me is how, or why, Skarpi knows what Haliax is calling himself in the present.

[Merihathor]

I'd love to hear it. I can't see it but I'm interested in what I'm missing.

The physical description of Haliax matches so well with Encanis that it seems unlikely they're not analogues, if not the same entity outright.

I noticed the imagery as well. I'll write up my argument when I get a moment and post it, but it's not much of one, just to warn you ahead of time ;-)

[Tyytan]

Hmm, just noticed in the letter Ben leaves Kvothe before leaving, one of the lines is 'beware of folly.' Anyone think that's prophetic?

[Who's on Third]

Hmm, just noticed in the letter Ben leaves Kvothe before leaving, one of the lines is 'beware of folly.' Anyone think that's prophetic?

Probably why Kvothe picked it for his sword's name.

Also, I saw a few threads back debate about how the sword came to be switched . . . I suspect it has something to do with Kvothe faking his death. To make sure that rumors of his death were believed, he'd have to send the sword back to the Adem, as he had promised.

[Who's on Third]

Just to double check, we're assuming those papers are the memoir he started to write, right?

Yep.

[AverageGuy]

I've been nagged by the interplay between 7 and 8 in the books. Perhaps it's nothing, but here it is:

NoTW:

-In Tapis' story, there are 7 who refuse to cross the line, plus Encanis.

-Tapis' story: 7 days for Tehlu's chase, catches Encanis on the eighth day.

-Tapis' story: Encanis destroyed six cities, (maybe seven, if Tapis miscounted by failing to count the first of the destroyed cities) saved the seventh city (but maybe eighth if Tapis failed to count the first city)

-In Skarpi's story there are 7 cities, plus Myr Tyraniel.

-Skarpi, when talking to Erlus, says "It's not as if I expect you to bound off looking for Haliax and the Seven yourself."

-In Skarpi's story, Selitos says "Can I confound the plots of Lanre and his Chandrian"

WMF:

-Sheyhen: "In the empire there were seven cities and one city."

-Sheyhen: "The enemy was not of the Lethani. He poisoned seven others against the empire." Enemy + seven = 8

8 things are required to get into the Lackless door, the items that are counted then "that which comes with sleeping".

Huh. Shatters my old thinking. I thought it was seven cities vs. one city, where Myr Tyraniel was one of the seven and the "one city" was like Jax's "house," just another way of talking about Faerie. *goes off to reread those passages*

[tze]

WMF:

-Sheyhen: "In the empire there were seven cities and one city."

-Sheyhen: "The enemy was not of the Lethani. He poisoned seven others against the empire." Enemy + seven = 8

Skarpi and Shehayn agree that there were eight cities but here's something I find interesting. Shehayn's story says that seven were poisoned by the enemy, six betrayed their cities, and one remembered the Lethani and did not betray a city. That city did not fall. She says that Tariniel fell. Therefore, the guardian of Tariniel is not, according to Shehayn's story, the one who remembered the Lethani. She's contradicting Skarpi's story in a pretty big way, as the only way to sync up the two is to say that Selitos was one of the Chandrian, as his city fell--otherwise too many people are remembering the Lethani and we have too few Chandrian:

1) There would be two people who didn't betray a city: Selitos and whoever was in charge of the city that didn't fall.

2) Too few Chandrian: one from Belen, one from Antus, one from Vaeret, one from Emlen, one from Murilla, one from Murella. That makes six. If Tinusa = the free city of Tinue, it sounds likely that that protector didn't betray the city. Selitos did not betray Myr Tariniel, according to Skarpi, even though it burned, so either someone's lying or he isn't the seventh. The enemy is set beyond the doors of stone, so he isn't the seventh. Lanre/Haliax certainly sounds like the protector of one of the six cities who fell---unless he's just randomly fighting the enemy, but Skarpi's story makes it sound like he's Selitos's counterpart.

Essentially: something doesn't add up.

It's also interesting that Shehayn calls the city Tariniel, not Myr Tariniel, as Skarpi's story derives "Amyr" from the word "Myr".

[thistlepong]

Skarpi and Shehayn agree that there were eight cities but here's something I find interesting. Shehayn's story says that seven were poisoned by the enemy, six betrayed their cities, and one remembered the Lethani and did not betray a city. That city did not fall. She says that Tariniel fell. Therefore, the guardian of Tariniel is not, according to Shehayn's story, the one who remembered the Lethani. She's contradicting Skarpi's story in a pretty big way, as the only way to sync up the two is to say that Selitos was one of the Chandrian, as his city fell--otherwise too many people are remembering the Lethani and we have too few Chandrian:

1) There would be two people who didn't betray a city: Selitos and whoever was in charge of the city that didn't fall.

2) Too few Chandrian: one from Belen, one from Antus, one from Vaeret, one from Emlen, one from Murilla, one from Murella. That makes six. If Tinusa = the free city of Tinue, it sounds likely that that protector didn't betray the city. Selitos did not betray Myr Tariniel, according to Skarpi, even though it burned, so either someone's lying or he isn't the seventh. The enemy is set beyond the doors of stone, so he isn't the seventh. Lanre/Haliax certainly sounds like the protector of one of the six cities who fell---unless he's just randomly fighting the enemy, but Skarpi's story makes it sound like he's Selitos's counterpart.

Essentially: something doesn't add up.

It's also interesting that Shehayn calls the city Tariniel, not Myr Tariniel, as Skarpi's story derives "Amyr" from the word "Myr".

I'll agree that something doesn't add up. However, does her story actually refer to the guardians of the seven cities or merely seven others?

Myr Tariniel, Tirintel, and Tariniel, are all used to refer to the same city. We also have the phonotactically similar Faeriniel floating aropund in another story. One of the children hollering for stories in "Lanre Turned" calls out, "Myr Tariniel."

The Lethani itself so far hasn't struck me as anything to rejoice in and teach to my kids. It's a semi-mystic system for taking right/just/whatever action on a situational basis, but if you'll forgive a D&D reference, it's sort of lawful neutral. It's also rigidly, arbitrarily, dualistic. Perhaps remembering the Lethani wasn't exactly a good thing.

[Gaston de Foix]

really stupid question, which anyone with a book can answer- where on the Four Corners is Tinue located?

[thistlepong]

really stupid question, which anyone with a book can answer- where on the Four Corners is Tinue located?

Northern Vintas, North and a little East from Renere

(http://www.patrickrothfuss.com/content/world.asp)

[Zizoz]

I took Lanre to be the betrayer of Myr Tariniel. He and the six other betrayers form the Chandrian.

[Gaston de Foix]

Northern Vintas, North and a little East from Renere

(http://www.patrickrothfuss.com/content/world.asp)

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. If Tinue was the city that was never betrayed wouldn't it be on the Great Stone Road? The university is built on the ruins of one of the seven cities and it fits exact.

Zizoz, I think the idea is that the guardian betrayed the city. Lanre was never guardian of Myr Tariniel, by all accounts that was Selitos. Does anyone get fall of Gondolin vibes from the fall of Myr Tariniel?

[Who's on Third]

Northern Vintas, North and a little East from Renere

(http://www.patrickrothfuss.com/content/world.asp)

There are many references to Tinue in WMF. I can't remember all of the examples, but one that stuck out in my mind was in Chapter 75 where it says "Marten told me they'd done other jobs for the Maer, the most recent of which involved scouting some of the lands around Tinue."

Also, the Lackless family once held Tinue, but I believe there was a reference to the family having lost that holding...I can't find the reference right now.

[Who's on Third]

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. If Tinue was the city that was never betrayed wouldn't it be on the Great Stone Road? The university is built on the ruins of one of the seven cities and it fits exact.

Could Tinue be built on the remains of Myr Tariniel? It seems to be the only city in a mountainous area on the map, which would match Skarpi 1's description of it being in the mountain passes..."Tinusa" seems more likely given the similarity of the names though.

Tinue is the last half of the word "continue" btw though I don't know if it is relevant.

I think we can agree that at least one of the destroyed cities is located under the university, given Kvothe's description of what's in the Underthing, the ancient bridge, and its location along the great stone road...which one though?

Skarpi calls them Belen, Antus, Vaeret, Tinusa, Emlen, and the twin cities of Mur ilia and Murella and Myr Tariniel.

Sheyhen only knows the name of Tariniel.

Does another list of the names of the cities exist, other than Skarpi 1?

[unJon]

So the founder of the Lackless family is the person who did not betray the city of the 7 that Lanre "poisoned." And that person remembered the Lethani and maybe is also tied up with the Amyr. Or was Aleph the one that remembered the Lethani? :confused:

[thistlepong]

Could Tinue be built on the remains of Myr Tariniel? It seems to be the only city in a mountainous area on the map, which would match Skarpi 1's description of it being in the mountain passes..."Tinusa" seems more likely given the similarity of the names though.

Tinue is the last half of the word "continue" btw though I don't know if it is relevant.

I think we can agree that at least one of the destroyed cities is located under the university, given Kvothe's description of what's in the Underthing, the ancient bridge, and its location along the great stone road...which one though?

Skarpi calls them Belen, Antus, Vaeret, Tinusa, Emlen, and the twin cities of Mur ilia and Murella and Myr Tariniel.

Sheyhen only knows the name of Tariniel.

Does another list of the names of the cities exist, other than Skarpi 1?

It was pointed out earlier that The University is located at Belenay-Baron and theorized that it was built on the ruins of Belen. From "Tehlu's Watchful Eye," (Skarpi 2) we know Belen was one of the cities that Fell.

I had assumed that Myr Tariniel was located at the other end of the Great Stone Road. It was set high in the mountains of the world like a jewel set in the crown of a king, so that seemed like a likely spot for a couple reasons.

"Lanre Turned" (Skarpi 1) contains the only list of names for the other cities.

unJon, as far as we know, even Loeclos only goes back like 1300 years. Their box is much older, but we don't know bhow they came into possession of it. Folk assume Aleph is the one who remembered the Lethani, though that contradicts a point of "Lanre Turned." Only Myr Tariniel relied on a namer for protection. Aleph is said to be on par with Selitos, though Selitos was "the most powerful namer of any living in that age." If that were the case, his protection over a city would have been notable.

[Tyytan]

So the founder of the Lackless family is the person who did not betray the city of the 7 that Lanre "poisoned." And that person remembered the Lethani and maybe is also tied up with the Amyr. Or was Aleph the one that remembered the Lethani? :confused:

I don't think it would be Aleph, isn't he supposed to be equivalent to the highest power in these books? Kvothe said that he made the world, so I think he'd be a bit above and beyond that.