The Wise Man's Fear IV (SPOILERS)

[Dremora]

Someone pointed out that the one who remembered the Lethani could be Illian. Felurian knew about him so he was probably around back then.

[Sylvester]

By the way, you know the Amyr on the vase? I think we all assumed that it was the one who did not betray his city, but couldn't it be Selitos instead? I mean, Selitos is the one who (according to Skarpi) founded the temporal Amyr, and he's the one who opposes the Chandrian, so wouldn't it make sense for him to be on the vase? In fact, that may be supported by Shehyn saying the name of the one who saved the city wasn't remembered: the names of all the other ones on the vase are accounted for, so it would make sense that the name of that Amyr is also be known.

[Who's on Third]

It was pointed out earlier that The University is located at Belenay-Baron and theorized that it was built on the ruins of Belen. From "Tehlu's Watchful Eye," (Skarpi 2) we know Belen was one of the cities that Fell.

I had assumed that Myr Tariniel was located at the other end of the Great Stone Road. It was set high in the mountains of the world like a jewel set in the crown of a king, so that seemed like a likely spot for a couple reasons.

"Lanre Turned" (Skarpi 1) contains the only list of names for the other cities.

unJon, as far as we know, even Loeclos only goes back like 1300 years. Their box is much older, but we don't know bhow they came into possession of it. Folk assume Aleph is the one who remembered the Lethani, though that contradicts a point of "Lanre Turned." Only Myr Tariniel relied on a namer for protection. Aleph is said to be on par with Selitos, though Selitos was "the most powerful namer of any living in that age." If that were the case, his protection over a city would have been notable.

Thanks for the Belenay-Baron connection. I read through most of the previous posts but must have missed that >.<

What do you mean by "the other end of the Great Stone Road"? Right around where Tinue is located, or closer to Hallowfell?

I really like the idea that "the founder of the Lackless family is the person who did not betray the city of the 7 that Lanre "poisoned."" Good call unJon. That would be poetic, if the one family who did not betray its city was the Loeclos family, which was entrusted with the box (perhaps a key to the doors of stone?), and now Kvothe, a decendant of the same family, now goes and opens the doors...

Thistle, that comment you said that PR made at the signing regarding reading something and not being sure of the context until you read something later on (extreme paraphrasing here, sorry) after he read Princess and Mr. Whiffle to everyone has really got me questioning all of my basic assumptions about the books!

[Marsala]

By the way, you know the Amyr on the vase? I think we all assumed that it was the one who did not betray his city, but couldn't it be Selitos instead? I mean, Selitos is the one who (according to Skarpi) founded the temporal Amyr, and he's the one who opposes the Chandrian, so wouldn't it make sense for him to be on the vase? In fact, that may be supported by Shehyn saying the name of the one who saved the city wasn't remembered: the names of all the other ones on the vase are accounted for, so it would make sense that the name of that Amyr is also be known.

That almost makes sense... but Selitos's city was Myr Tariniel, and that city was definitely destroyed.

[dbcooper]

Forgive me if this post seems lazy but I've read through many posts in these threads and have had trouble separating what is known and what is speculation in regards to the origin story of this world. From what I've read, almost all of the solid information we know comes from Skarpi's and Sheyhn's stories.. then there seems to be tidbit's scattered throughout the rest of the novels. What are the facts that we have in regards to the events of the Creation War and the betrayal of the cities?

Shapers make the old Namers (Knowers) mad by changing too much and not stopping when asked.

Iax steals the moon, starting the Creation War.

Lyra dies, turning Lanre into a bad guy. Lanre gains power to try and bring Lyra back to life but fails and makes himself immortal in the process. Lanre wants to kill himself and decides the best way to die is to destroy the world's greatest cities and hopefully Selitos will kill him in the end. Selitos can't kill Lanre for good but instead binds him in darkness and makes his name a curse.

There were "seven cities and one city", where the seven cities fell through betrayal and the one city called Tariniel was just destroyed. The seven traitors become the Chandrian with Lanre/Haliax as their leader.

What details am I missing?

[Psistern]

dbcooper, Skarpi says that only 6 of the cities fell. One did not, which is assumed to be Tinue.

Whats up guys? First post here and I would like to share a few theories of mine.

1) When Aleph turns the Ruach into the 'angels', Skarpi 2 says: "Fire settled on their forheads like silver stars. . ." (NOTW, 209) When Kvothe sees with his sleeping mind in WMF, a similar description is used: "My power shone like a white star on my brow." (WMF, 642) So perhaps Aleph completely awakens their sleeping minds. Or Selitos with his sight just sees it that way.

2) In the same passage, the angels' wings are described (NOTW, 208). In WMF, Kv says of Felurian: "Her power spread behind her like a pair of vast and unseen wings. I'm not saying that Felurian is an angel, but maybe she was granted her power by Aleph in a similar matter.

And I'm currently on a scavenger hunt about Kv's sword Folly, which I believe may be Lanre/Haliax's. More to come on that.

[Dremora]

Just an idea.

Maybe all 8 cities were destroyed and the one who remembered the Lethani was Illain who started the Ruah, who were travellers.

[AverageGuy]

Maybe all 8 cities were destroyed and the one who remembered the Lethani was Illain who started the Ruah, who were travellers.

I got the impression that Illien was more recent than the Creation War, but I'm unsure. Does Kvothe mention when Illien converted the old court lute to the trooper's lute?

[unJon]

I don't think it would be Aleph, isn't he supposed to be equivalent to the highest power in these books? Kvothe said that he made the world, so I think he'd be a bit above and beyond that.

Well no, not according to Skarpi 1.

[Sylvester]

I don't think it would be Aleph, isn't he supposed to be equivalent to the highest power in these books? Kvothe said that he made the world, so I think he'd be a bit above and beyond that.

I think that Kvothe was simply making a parody of the Tehlins when he said that. I can imagine these might be the first lines of the Book of the Path.

[Gaston de Foix]

It was pointed out earlier that The University is located at Belenay-Baron and theorized that it was built on the ruins of Belen. From "Tehlu's Watchful Eye," (Skarpi 2) we know Belen was one of the cities that Fell.

I had assumed that Myr Tariniel was located at the other end of the Great Stone Road. It was set high in the mountains of the world like a jewel set in the crown of a king, so that seemed like a likely spot for a couple reasons.

"Lanre Turned" (Skarpi 1) contains the only list of names for the other cities.

unJon, as far as we know, even Loeclos only goes back like 1300 years. Their box is much older, but we don't know bhow they came into possession of it. Folk assume Aleph is the one who remembered the Lethani, though that contradicts a point of "Lanre Turned." Only Myr Tariniel relied on a namer for protection. Aleph is said to be on par with Selitos, though Selitos was "the most powerful namer of

any living in that age." If that were the case, his protection over a city would have been notable.

I think it's Belenay-Barren isn't it? That makes some poetic sense as well.

Selitos being "the most powerful namer of any living in that age" is implicitly contradicted by the tone of the conversation between Selitos and Aleph in Skarpi 2.

Selitos refers to him as Lord, and specifically asks if he does this thing, whether he will have the power to foil the plots of Lanre and his Chandrian.

Also of course, Kvothe refers to Aleph creating the world.

I can't really reconcile the conflicting information but my hunch is Aleph is a being beyond Selitos and Lanre, the one true quasi-God figure we have in the stories. Even if you just accept that he created Tehlu & Pals into this awesome supernatural force,that speaks to his power.

About the Loeclos, Thistle I agree it's hard to see how we bridge the entire 5000 year gap between the creation wars and now, but it was my understanding that they go back considerably further than 1300 years. Don't have my books, so back up quotes will have to wait.

[chrispin]

So the founder of the Lackless family is the person who did not betray the city of the 7 that Lanre "poisoned." And that person remembered the Lethani and maybe is also tied up with the Amyr. Or was Aleph the one that remembered the Lethani? :confused:

I like this! I was thinking the city that didn't burn may be Caluptena since it had records that went back 2000+ years. The church burned it down, possibly during the church/Amyr split?

“If not for the burning of Caluptena, we might possess records tracing the Lackless family back far enough for them to rival the royal line of Modeg…” (Caudicus' book)

As mentioned - “The Lackless lands used to be a full earldom, but that was before the bloodless rebellion, when they still controlled Tinue.” (WMF chap139)

It's possible that Caluptena = Tinue = Tinusa and the Lackless were there at the beginning. Don't know what the Modeg were up to...

As mentioned, the Maer was poking around Tinue, and Tinue is referred to as a Faeriniel-type all-roads crossing in the Jax story. The the Lockless door might be near there "on the oldest parts of the Lockless lands" There should be at least a greystone circle nearby.

It seems that Denna is traveling to the ancient cities. She keeps coming back to Imre (Belen) and went to Tinue (Tinusa), Vartheret (Vaeret?) and Andenivan (Antus?) at the end of WMF.

[chrispin]

I think it's Belenay-Barren isn't it? That makes some poetic sense as well.

Selitos being "the most powerful namer of any living in that age" is implicitly contradicted by the tone of the conversation between Selitos and Aleph in Skarpi 2.

Selitos refers to him as Lord, and specifically asks if he does this thing, whether he will have the power to foil the plots of Lanre and his Chandrian.

Also of course, Kvothe refers to Aleph creating the world.

I can't really reconcile the conflicting information but my hunch is Aleph is a being beyond Selitos and Lanre, the one true quasi-God figure we have in the stories. Even if you just accept that he created Tehlu & Pals into this awesome supernatural force,that speaks to his power.

About the Loeclos, Thistle I agree it's hard to see how we bridge the entire 5000 year gap between the creation wars and now, but it was my understanding that they go back considerably further than 1300 years. Don't have my books, so back up quotes will have to wait.

Selitos was a namer, but Aleph was a shaper.

- The shapers won the Creation War

- Aleph says the names of Tehlu's followers and they changed shape

- If Kvothe's quoting The Way of the Path, it would have more Aleph than Selitos since history is written by the victors

It seems Skarpi II is set in the shaper world (Fae?).

Tehlu: "I will leave this world behind that I might better serve it"

Haliax and the Chandrian, instead of being rewarded by the shapers, may have been exiled/escaped to the mortal world. Then Selitos/the Amyr and Tehlu/angles were sent to "do this thing". Guard the doors to keep the Chandrian out of the shaper world? Round up pre-war artifacts? Get the Fae out of the mortal world?

When Kvothe said "I have talked to Gods" it'll be interesting to see who he meant.

[Gaston de Foix]

Selitos was a namer, but Aleph was a shaper.

- The shapers won the Creation War

- If Kvothe's quoting The Way of the Path, it would have more Aleph than Selitos since history is written by the victors

It seems Skarpi II is set in the shaper world (Fae?).

Tehlu: "I will leave this world behind that I might better serve it"

When Kvothe said "I have talked to Gods" it'll be interesting to see who he meant.

Aleph was also a Namer (Skarpi 1)

So far all we have learned from the books, Tehlinism has Tehlu as a monotheistic God. Aleph has not so far been mentioned at all.

You are right that Tehlu leaves this world behind, but it's very unclear where exactly he has gone. By all accounts he returns to this world as an unseen presence.

Kvothe has apparently killed an angel as well. Maybe that's what he meant by talking to Gods?

I have to be honest, I struggle to believe, the more I think about how much remains integral to the plot, that PR will finish Doors of Stone in 800 pages, without rushing it.

[unJon]

@Crispin - interesting thoughts.

[thistlepong]

Selitos being "the most powerful namer of any living in that age" is implicitly contradicted by the tone of the conversation between Selitos and Aleph in Skarpi 2.

Selitos refers to him as Lord, and specifically asks if he does this thing, whether he will have the power to foil the plots of Lanre and his Chandrian.

Also of course, Kvothe refers to Aleph creating the world.

I can't really reconcile the conflicting information but my hunch is Aleph is a being beyond Selitos and Lanre, the one true quasi-God figure we have in the stories. Even if you just accept that he created Tehlu & Pals into this awesome supernatural force,that speaks to his power.

I'm not really sure how it parses either. The two references we have to most powerful are Skarpi 1 (Selitos) and Felurian (unnamed - Iax implied by Hespe, named by Bast.) Selitos appears subordinate in S2, but not only has the power/option to refuse, but the ability to create a lasting organization if not be part of it himself. And his curse isn't too shabby either.

Selitos was a namer, but Aleph was a shaper.

- The shapers won the Creation War

- Aleph says the names of Tehlu's followers and they changed shape

- If Kvothe's quoting The Way of the Path, it would have more Aleph than Selitos since history is written by the victors

Selitos, Aleph, Iax, and Lyra are all narrated performing similar actions. Regardless of what we call them, though, it's interesting to consider whether they were all on the same side. I'd love an easy answer that I could support. Tariniel being in Faen would be great, but I can't make S1 or Shehyn say that.

Faen winning has a lot going for it. They didn't start the war so their winning condition wouldn't necessarily be annihilating their opponent. Selitos is said to be living contemporary to Iax. Iax's actions presumably catalyzed the Creation War, which lasted for centuries. There's an answer there. Were both sides immortal or just Faen?

It seems Skarpi II is set in the shaper world (Fae?).

Tehlu: "I will leave this world behind that I might better serve it"

I wanted this to be the answer for awhile. The fact that Tehlu & Pals disappear forever from mortal sight provides some evidence against it. This is another place where what's missing from S2 confuses things.

Haliax and the Chandrian, instead of being rewarded by the shapers, may have been exiled/escaped to the mortal world. Then Selitos/the Amyr and Tehlu/angles were sent to "do this thing". Guard the doors to keep the Chandrian out of the shaper world? Round up pre-war artifacts? Get the Fae out of the mortal world?

Here's where it really breaks down for me. Tehlu is pretty much a demon hunter. The demons he hunts are almost undeniably Faen. We hear throughout the story that there are only Faen and man(lings.) I can't reconcile Tehlu & Pals clearing out Faen from the Four Corners with them being Faen themselves.

[Who's on Third]

I'm not really sure how it parses either. The two references we have to most powerful are Skarpi 1 (Selitos) and Felurian (unnamed - Iax implied by Hespe, named by Bast.) Selitos appears subordinate in S2, but not only has the power/option to refuse, but the ability to create a lasting organization if not be part of it himself. And his curse isn't too shabby either.

Selitos, Aleph, Iax, and Lyra are all narrated performing similar actions. Regardless of what we call them, though, it's interesting to consider whether they were all on the same side. I'd love an easy answer that I could support. Tariniel being in Faen would be great, but I can't make S1 or Shehyn say that.

Faen winning has a lot going for it. They didn't start the war so their winning condition wouldn't necessarily be annihilating their opponent. Selitos is said to be living contemporary to Iax. Iax's actions presumably catalyzed the Creation War, which lasted for centuries. There's an answer there. Were both sides immortal or just Faen?

I wanted this to be the answer for awhile. The fact that Tehlu & Pals disappear forever from mortal sight provides some evidence against it. This is another place where what's missing from S2 confuses things.

Here's where it really breaks down for me. Tehlu is pretty much a demon hunter. The demons he hunts are almost undeniably Faen. We hear throughout the story that there are only Faen and man(lings.) I can't reconcile Tehlu & Pals clearing out Faen from the Four Corners with them being Faen themselves.

Just a general comment/observation: I wonder if Skarpi (or Sheyhen for that matter) has an agenda that we are not aware of. Kvothe seems to disdain Skarpi's meddling in WMF when he finds out that Chronicler was sent by Skarpi. This coupled with PR's comment that you can't trust narrorators makes me think its a possibility. Skarpi seems to be a Kvothe-friendly character...

The only story teller I see in the books with the least possibility of having an agenda is Felurian, due to her description.

[Gaston de Foix]

Just a general comment/observation: I wonder if Skarpi (or Sheyhen for that matter) has an agenda that we are not aware of. Kvothe seems to disdain Skarpi's meddling in WMF when he finds out that Chronicler was sent by Skarpi. This coupled with PR's comment that you can't trust narrorators makes me think its a possibility. Skarpi seems to be a Kvothe-friendly character...

The only story teller I see in the books with the least possibility of having an agenda is Felurian, due to her description.

It's hard to see what Sheyhen's agenda would be. I expect there is a general hostility to the Chandrian/Rhintae but beyond that, there's a point at which you have to stop building even plausible theories because Rothfuss has already boxed himself in from being able to go in that direction.

I've loved theorising endlessly on this forum about Elodin's secret power of knowing where Kvothe is, and what bad thing happened on Shep's farm and what exactly is going on with the elderberry. But I think it's time to face the facts, if Doors of Stone is 800 pages at most, we will rarely have time to look back. I mean just to draw up a brief list of things that will definitely happen in the book

(1) Kvothe will meet Bast

(2) Kvothe will learn the Name of the Wind, Fire, Ice, etc etc

(3) Kvothe will be betrayed by Denna

(4) Kvothe will acquire Folly and/or replace Caesura.

(5) Kvothe will design his chest

(6) Kvothe will be expelled.

(7) Kvothe will wrestle an angel/kill an angel.

(8) Kvothe will discover/resolve the meaning of the Four Plate Door.

(9) Kvothe will kill a King.

(10)Kvothe will talk to Gods.

(11)Kvothe will rescue a princess from a sleeping barrow king.

(12)Kvothe will find some sort of resolution in the frame story.

(13)Kvothe will encounter the Chandrian (at least Cinder) again.

(14)Kvothe will discover his heritage as Netalia Lackless' son.

(15)Kvothe will injure his hand in some fashion

(16)Kvothe will lose his music and his magic.

(17)Kvothe will learn more about the Fae/Sithe.

(18)Kvothe will open/discover the meaning of the Loeclos box.

(19)Kvothe will meet again with Maer Alveron, discover the location of the Order Amyr.

(20)Kvothe will acquire a ring of amber for his left hand.

(21)Kvothe's story will come to some sort of ending within the frame story.

(22)Kvothe will discover more about the Amyr and/or the Chandrian.

(23)Kvothe will have occasion to use the ring of bone given to him by Stapes (gun on the mantle)

(24)Kvothe will come to a resolution with his relationship with Bredon ("...")

(25)Kvothe will come to some sort of resolution in his relationship with Auri ("...")

(26)Kvothe will discover what Cinder was doing in the woods of Vintas, what Caudicus was upto ("..")

(27)There will be some sort of confrontation/resolution between Bast and his Reshi.

(28)We will learn what the crumpled pages contain ("...")

All of this should be relatively uncontroversial. Many of these topics (the blossoming of romance with Denna and then the subsequent betrayal by her) will get the trademark delicate, almost languorous Rothfuss treatment. So, I would be very cautious about postulating any more extensive world-building or exposition. Not Gonna Happen.

[Sylvester]

Aleph was also a Namer (Skarpi 1)

So far all we have learned from the books, Tehlinism has Tehlu as a monotheistic God. Aleph has not so far been mentioned at all.

You are right that Tehlu leaves this world behind, but it's very unclear where exactly he has gone. By all accounts he returns to this world as an unseen presence.

Kvothe has apparently killed an angel as well. Maybe that's what he meant by talking to Gods?

I have to be honest, I struggle to believe, the more I think about how much remains integral to the plot, that PR will finish Doors of Stone in 800 pages, without rushing it.

I also have my doubts, considering that he has to make light on three storylines: the present Kvothe/Kote, the past Kvothe and the Creation War. Let me explain why he has to cover the last point. From some of Bast's comments, it seems clear that the present-day Kvothe does know the "true" story of the Creation War (e.g. Bast saying in a casual matter, as if it was clearly known to Kvothe, that Iax spoke to the Chtaeh before engineering the Creation War), so Kvothe must learn that story on the way, and the reader will also do so.

But that opens another interesting question: from whom or what did Kvothe learn the story of the Creation War? My personal guesses are Skarpi (he has to appear in Book 3, or Kvothe couldn't have appeared so acquainted with him in NotW), Elodin/Lorren (I mean, if they don't know, who does?), and Bast (since it is clear from the quote I mentioned earlier that he knows the story). Any other suggestions?

Personally,the thing that interests me most is the series of events before and after Lyra's death. Any ideas on what might've killed her and the way Lanre came to his newfound powers that made him impossible to kill?

[Gaston de Foix]

But that opens another interesting question: from whom or what did Kvothe learn the story of the Creation War? My personal guesses are Skarpi (he has to appear in Book 3, or Kvothe couldn't have appeared so acquainted with him in NotW), Elodin/Lorren (I mean, if they don't know, who does?), and Bast (since it is clear from the quote I mentioned earlier that he knows the story). Any other suggestions?

Personally,the thing that interests me most is the series of events before and after Lyra's death. Any ideas on what might've killed her and the way Lanre came to his newfound powers that made him impossible to kill?

He could have learned it from the watcher/angel he kills.

I read the narrative as Lyra dying of some disease. Not sure why except the suggestion that the death was preceded by illness made me think of disease.

I have no idea frankly about how Lanre became a Namer and impossible to kill. I can only assume that it involved Shaping since that seems to be the most powerful of the magics we have seen/heard about in the books.