The Wise Man's Fear IV (SPOILERS)

[Argonath Diver]

I live in Iowa City. I am a fool to miss the reading, but alas, I work nights and only just got home. I bet he's out having a beer at one of my favorite pubs right now. Argh!

[Gaston de Foix]

I asked the language question.

In short, attentive readers can translate the the languages. They're not fully developed like Tolkien's, but the words aren't random. There was a linguist in the crowd who followed up by mentioning that his efforts to make them sound like languages were spot on. She was surprised he intuited his way to that.

Regarding the use of actual foreign words he denies it. He used Carceret as an example. A reader at another signing asked if he knew Latin; apparently it means something like "to imprison." His concern was making sure people didn't read "Car Car Et." He mentioned that being well read could have exposed him to words. Taken with his explanation of shamble men from the blog, chances are archaic English is intended while Latin, Dutch, Hindi, &c. are not.

He passed around copies of The Adventures of the Princess and Mister Wiffle and um... had story time. Then he read through it again, pointing out the details that folks miss or have no context for the first time through. Then he rather archly said there was a lesson there.

My wife asked who his favorite unreliable narrator was, having just wrapped Midnight's Children with her students. He doesn't believe in reliable narrators. He responded with, roughly, "That assumes some narrators are reliable," and talked a little bit about The Princess Bride and some early versions of The Hobbit..

Thistle that sounds fascinating. Did he say anything about how many languages in total there were in the Four Corners?

I read this as confirmation that beyond the occaisonal discovery from really close reading of the books for the nth time, the only systematic way to reveal anything new is to take a serious dig at translating. Thaykora created a google docs template, I would encourage everybody to contribute. If nothing else, everytime you come across Wilem speaking Siaru in the books or Bast saying something in Fae, put it in. Hopefully someone can post a link here-?

[Merihathor]

Hi guys, first post on this particular forum though I've been discussing the books in plenty of places. First off, you guys are amazing with the sheer intricate details you've found. One thing that's bugging me, and I'm sure it's been discussed in the countless pages of these threads, is the thing that originally 'killed' Lanre in the battle. Anyone any ideas what it could be? Here is the passage:

"Lanre was always where the fight was thickest, where he was needed most. His sword never left his hand or rested in its sheath. At the very end of things, covered in blood amid a field of corpses, Lanre stood alone against a terrible foe. It was a great beast with scales of black iron, whose breath was a darkness that smothered men. Lanre fought the beast and killed it. Lanre brought victory to his side, but he bought it with his life.

After the battle was finished and the enemy was set beyond the doors of stone, survivors found Lanre’s body, cold and lifeless near the beast he had slain. Word of Lanre’s death spread quickly, covering the field like a blanket of despair. They had won the battle and turned the tide of the war, but each of them felt cold inside. The small flame of hope that each of them cherished began to flicker and fade. Their hopes had hung on Lanre, and Lanre was dead."

Apparently it's beyond the doors of stone, presumably spooning with Iax if it's the same doors. Perhaps it was Iax that Lanre fought, hence him changing his name to Haliax, and so it's because of him Iax is behind the doors of stone. Perhaps.

I think the enemy and foe listed here are two separate things. The foe that killed him sounds something like a draccus (beast with scales of black iron). The enemy might be one person, or several, as the word "enemy" can stand for one or more--probably one person or a group of people that took the opposite side as Lanre and his group during the Namer/Shaper war. I assumed it was a group of people, but this could easily be one person. I also assumed at one point that Lanre/Iax/Haliax were all the same person, but I don't have the time to dig for quotes to support that decision. If this enemy is one person, then my guess is it's an Amyr...or maybe even someone of the Sithe.

[Tyytan]

I think the enemy and foe listed here are two separate things. The foe that killed him sounds something like a draccus (beast with scales of black iron). The enemy might be one person, or several, as the word "enemy" can stand for one or more--probably one person or a group of people that took the opposite side as Lanre and his group during the Namer/Shaper war. I assumed it was a group of people, but this could easily be one person. I also assumed at one point that Lanre/Iax/Haliax were all the same person, but I don't have the time to dig for quotes to support that decision. If this enemy is one person, then my guess is it's an Amyr...or maybe even someone of the Sithe.

It's interesting that the more people dig, the more the Amyr are also looking like bad guys. However weren't the Amyr formed by Selitos after the war, in response to Lanre burning down Myr Tiriniel and the other cities? I'd imagine the enemy is the Shaper, the one Felurian wouldn't mention as she said they're locked behind the doors of stone, which would put Lanre originally with the namers, hence my belief his fight was maybe against Iax. Only a wild theory though.

Another point I was wondering, we hear 2 stories (that I can remember) that allude to 6 cities being burned and a 7th saved - one where Lanre destroys them, the other 'Encanis.' I'm assuming they're the same cities, just different versions of the story, but do we assume the 7th city (which is unnamed at the moment right?) still exists? And maybe has some important part to play?

[Merihathor]

It's interesting that the more people dig, the more the Amyr are also looking like bad guys. However weren't the Amyr formed by Selitos after the war, in response to Lanre burning down Myr Tiriniel and the other cities? I'd imagine the enemy is the Shaper, the one Felurian wouldn't mention as she said they're locked behind the doors of stone, which would put Lanre originally with the namers, hence my belief his fight was maybe against Iax. Only a wild theory though.

Another point I was wondering, we hear 2 stories (that I can remember) that allude to 6 cities being burned and a 7th saved - one where Lanre destroys them, the other 'Encanis.' I'm assuming they're the same cities, just different versions of the story, but do we assume the 7th city (which is unnamed at the moment right?) still exists? And maybe has some important part to play?

Yeah, the Amyr were formed by Selitos after the war in response to Aleph forming the Singers/Angels. I think you're a bit confused, as Lanre/Haliax/Iax are the same person. Lanre originally had no power other than through his sword, but after Lyra died, he obtained the power of naming through a very dark means (read the exchange between Selitos and Lanre to find this) and becomes Iax/Haliax. Jax/Iax/Haliax/Lanre are all the same person. Perhaps Encanis is Haliax, but that wouldn't make sense, as Haliax can't die, and it *seems* that Encanis dies in the story told by Trapis about Tehlu and Encanis. Unless the stories about Tehlu and Encanis are wrong--which is possible, given how much we're told that stories are mostly lies with a kernel of truth.

I don't recall what happened to the 7th city and where it might be. However, there are pages and pages of discussion about this in the other threads. If I get more time, I can go hunt it down for you. If I don't before you get the free time, try typing some search terms in the box up there and see if you can find some information :-)

[Merihathor]

This just occurred to me--perhaps the person behind the door *is* Iax. Perhaps Lanre *took* Iax's ability to name somehow, then Iax was locked away to hide this. Lanre then renamed himself "Haliax," which might mean "Made of Iax" or "Made from Iax." Iax created Faerie, and the waystones are seen as doors to Faerie. Perhaps the door in the Archives is much like a waystone.

Anyway. Just some idle speculation.

[Dremora]

Yeah, the Amyr were formed by Selitos after the war in response to Aleph forming the Singers/Angels. I think you're a bit confused, as Lanre/Haliax/Iax are the same person. Lanre originally had no power other than through his sword, but after Lyra died, he obtained the power of naming through a very dark means (read the exchange between Selitos and Lanre to find this) and becomes Iax/Haliax. Jax/Iax/Haliax/Lanre are all the same person. Perhaps Encanis is Haliax, but that wouldn't make sense, as Haliax can't die, and it *seems* that Encanis dies in the story told by Trapis about Tehlu and Encanis. Unless the stories about Tehlu and Encanis are wrong--which is possible, given how much we're told that stories are mostly lies with a kernel of truth.

I don't recall what happened to the 7th city and where it might be. However, there are pages and pages of discussion about this in the other threads. If I get more time, I can go hunt it down for you. If I don't before you get the free time, try typing some search terms in the box up there and see if you can find some information :-)

I'm not convinced that lax is haliax. I think Lanre had lax change his "name" for him into Haliax since Lax was a shaper.

Also when that girl (cant remember her name) who saw he vase with the chandrian on it was explaining it she said that Stelitos was the worst. Maybe that was reference to the Aymr not being the god guys.

[Tyytan]

I don't recall what happened to the 7th city and where it might be. However, there are pages and pages of discussion about this in the other threads. If I get more time, I can go hunt it down for you. If I don't before you get the free time, try typing some search terms in the box up there and see if you can find some information :-)

Thanks, may do that :)

I'm not convinced Iax is Haliax though. That's what I meant, Iax is behind the doors of stone after Haliax beat him - Iax was the enemy, but somehow Lanre got his power and became Haliax. Of course you may be right, they may just be the same :-)But I can't find any solid references to this. It's assumed the big bad shaper Felurian spoke of is Iax, and she says he's behind the doors of stone, and we know that Haliax is wandering the world.

[Zizoz]

I believe that it was suggested earlier that the seventh city was Tinusa (Tinuë). Still, it's speculation, pretty much just based on some similarity in the names.

I also don't think there need be any connection at all between Iax and Haliax.

[Merihathor]

All of you could very well be correct, but then I wonder why the moon in three phases is shown above Haliax on the vase? Why is he associated with the moon, like Iax/Jax? This was one of the major reasons why I thought there was a connection, as well as the names themselves having common elements in sound:

WMF, Kindle version (location: 5516-24)

"I unrolled the paper further. There was a second man, or rather the shape of a man in a great hooded robe. Inside the cowl of the robe was nothing but blackness. Over his head were three moons, a full moon, a half moon, and one that was just a crescent. Next to him were two candles. One was yellow with a bright orange flame. The other candle sat underneath his outstretched hand: it was grey with a black flame, and the space around it was smudged and darkened."

Kvothe confirms in his mind that his is Haliax. Therefore, why the moons if he's not related in some way to Iax?

Regarding the suggestion that Lanre had Iax rename him to Haliax: that could very well be, but another idea: Lanre came back from death with the power to name; he does so in the scene with Selitos. Therefore, might he have simply renamed himself after wresting this power? Why go to Iax for a name when he could chose a new name for himself, much as Kvothe did to become Kote?

Lanre's naming power and its origin:

Page 178, first hard cover printing:

"You have given me enough, old friend." Lanre turned and placed his hand on Selitos' shoulder. "

Silanxi

, I bind you. By the name of stone, be still as stone.

Aeruh

, I command the air. Lay leaden on your tongue.

Selitos

, I name you. May all your powers fail you but your sight."

Selitos knew that in all the world there were only three people who could match his skill in names: Aleph, Iax and Lyra. Lanre had no gift for names--his power lay in the strength of his arm. For him to attempt to bind Selitos by his name would be as fruitless as a boy attacking a soldier with a willow stick.

Nevertheless, Lanre's power lay on him like a great weight, like a vise of iron, and Selitos found himself unable to move or speak. He stood, still as stone and could do nothing but marvel: how had Lanre come by such power?

Page 180:

Selitos, his eyes unveiled, looked at his friend. He saw how Lanre, nearly mad with grief, had sought the power to bring Lyra back to life again. Out of love for Lyra, Lanre had sought knowledge where knowledge is better left alone, and gained it at a terrible price.

The story goes on to explain that Lanre had sought death to escape the pain of losing Lyra, but that the new-won power "burned him back into his body, forcing him to live." And then:

Page 180

"...I am no longer the Lanre you knew. Mine is a new and terrible name. I am Haliax and no door can bar my passing. All is lost to me, no Lyra, no sweet escape of sleep, no blissful forgetfulness, even madness is beyond me. Death itself is an open doorway to my power..."

So something happened to cause Lanre to take a name that contained "Iax," to cause the moon in three phases to be drawn above his figure on a vase. I amend my earlier comment that Haliax is Iax, but I still do think that they have some kind of relationship.

In any case, the eight cities were: Belen, Antus, Vaeret, Tinusa, Emlen, twin cities of Murilla and Murella, and Myr Tariniel.

I find myself wondering tonight about the alchemical properties of copper vs. iron, and if this is why these metals are chosen in the books so frequently. Why copper on the VALARITAS door, why does the Amyr on the vase have a copper shield, why is copper veined into Elodin's old room at the Haven...I remember discussion about this, so I'll go look. Sorry for the length!

[thistlepong]

Thistle that sounds fascinating. Did he say anything about how many languages in total there were in the Four Corners?

The second question I asked was what they believed in the Shald. He avoided it on the grounds that it was still a living religion. However, he went on at length about the Aturan Empire.

For thousands of miles, throughout most of the Four Corners, Aturan is spoken. That's weird. He described it as if the Aturan Empire had risen in the middle ages and done it right. Whenever they conquered a city, they tore down the old church and erected a new one: half Tehlin church and half courthouse. All court business was conducted in Aturan and if the populace wished to bring suit, they had to learn the language. When the empire collapsed, the old languages and religions were already forgotten. Southern Yll, the Nortwestern Shald, Northeastern Modeg, and Ademre were never conquered. Present day Atur is a depressed economy, poorly governed and inadequately policed. But Aturan remains the lingua franca and The Book of the Path is taken literally or figuratively depending on where one is.

No numbers for languages or religions (or races.)

It cast a couple of the popular debated in a different light. Ferule, for example, can't be used to mean walking stick in support of Cinder as Denna's patron. However, several other clues still favor him over Bredon or anyone else. The linguistic acrobatics deployed for En Temerant Voistra and Cyaerbasalien were amusing, but relatively pointless. I kind of think Drossen Tor could still be the Sheer based only on their English meanings, but I don't know how significant that is.

Some other interesting answers or refusals (more paraphrasing than above)

• How does succession work?
  That depends on where you are.

  
  

• How does it work in Vintas?
  That's a good question.

  
  

• Why write such a musically themed book if you're not a musician?
  Guitarists are cool. In a world like this, moreso. Troupers bring the only real entertainment along with news of the world and stories of other cultures.

  
  

• What inspired the magic systems?
  Lots of places. Thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, Hermetic tradition (said he and Le Guin drew on similar sources here.)

  
  

• And he read some poetry, cause Kvothe hates it, not him.
  
• He would not sign my kindle with the names of the first three Amyr, but he does have a silver pen for doing so.
  

(I took the great beast with scales of black iron to be a draccus or draccus-ancestor and Lanre to be awesome for killing it.)

[Gaston de Foix]

The second question I asked was what they believed in the Shald. He avoided it on the grounds that it was still a living religion. However, he went on at length about the Aturan Empire.

For thousands of miles, throughout most of the Four Corners, Aturan is spoken. That's weird. He described it as if the Aturan Empire had risen in the middle ages and done it right. Whenever they conquered a city, they tore down the old church and erected a new one: half Tehlin church and half courthouse. All court business was conducted in Aturan and if the populace wished to bring suit, they had to learn the language. When the empire collapsed, the old languages and religions were already forgotten. Southern Yll, the Nortwestern Shald, Northeastern Modeg, and Ademre were never conquered. Present day Atur is a depressed economy, poorly governed and inadequately policed. But Aturan remains the lingua franca and The Book of the Path is taken literally or figuratively depending on where one is.

No numbers for languages or religions (or races.)

It cast a couple of the popular debated in a different light. Ferule, for example, can't be used to mean walking stick in support of Cinder as Denna's patron. However, several other clues still favor him over Bredon or anyone else. The linguistic acrobatics deployed for En Temerant Voistra and Cyaerbasalien were amusing, but relatively pointless. I kind of think Drossen Tor could still be the Sheer based only on their English meanings, but I don't know how significant that is.

Some other interesting answers or refusals (more paraphrasing than above)

• How does succession work?
  That depends on where you are.

  
  

• How does it work in Vintas?
  That's a good question.

  
  

• Why write such a musically themed book if you're not a musician?
  Guitarists are cool. In a world like this, moreso. Troupers bring the only real entertainment along with news of the world and stories of other cultures.

  
  

• What inspired the magic systems?
  Lots of places. Thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, Hermetic tradition (said he and Le Guin drew on similar sources here.)

  
  

• And he read some poetry, cause Kvothe hates it, not him.
  
• He would not sign my kindle with the names of the first three Amyr, but he does have a silver pen for doing so.
  

(I took the great beast with scales of black iron o be a draccus or draccus-ancestor and Lanre to be awesome for killing it.)

Thanks, Thistle, that's way more information than I would have expected from the Sphinx-like Mr Rothfuss.

It's interesting that those four specific places were never conquered. There's an obvious reason nobody has ever conquered Amdemre, but why Southern Yll (knot magic?)? I thought Yll was stomped under the iron boots of the Aturan Empire?

It makes sense though,if the Modegan royal lineage is the oldest unbroken in the world that it was never conquered even though there is some discussion about how much power the Modegan High King truly has.

The extremely hierarchical structure of the Aturan Church would also explain why the Order Amyr would want to have a temporal branch. By being part of the Aturan Empire they could effectively explain their presence anywhere in the empire and do what they wanted with no comment or criticism.

The draccus does not the breath of darkness and sickness that the great beast at Drossen Tor seems to have had. Also, would shaped creatures be able to reproduce?

[Sylvester]

Hi, I've been lurking here for a while and I'm really amazed about the stuff you guys found, and if PR reads this topic, I'm sure he must be tearing his hair out of desperation to see so many potential secrets uncovered.

Anyway, I've read the 4 topics, and I haven't noticed this anywhere, so I thought I'd post it to see what you think about it.

It's about the famous Lord Haliax quote: "Who protects you from the Amyr, the singers, the Sithe?". The first and the third are pretty well-explained by now, but the second one still has a lot of shadow around it. I saw theories saying that the singers are the angels led by Tehlu (and Manet :rolleyes: ), but I don't really like that theory because first of all, I don't remember any place in the two books where angels sing?

So here's my guess on the singers: it's based on a quote by Kvothe in WMF, page 288. Simmon's just asked him where would he go if he could go anywhere and here's Kvothe's response:

"I'd go to the Tahlenwald [...] I heard a story once that said the leaders of their tribes aren't great warriors, they're singers.Their songs can heal the sick and make the trees dance"

I find this pretty suggestive. It's also quite logical, since the Tahl are a nomadic people, that they are either chasing after or hiding from the Chandrian (though I personally prefer the first option).

Plus, it gives a fairly good idea about what might happen in the third book. My theory is that Kvothe, once expelled of the University as I believe he will, will go visit the Tahl and find out new information about the Chandrian.

So, what do you think about this ?

[Gaston de Foix]

Hi, I've been lurking here for a while and I'm really amazed about the stuff you guys found, and if PR reads this topic, I'm sure he must be tearing his hair out of desperation to see so many potential secrets uncovered.

Anyway, I've read the 4 topics, and I haven't noticed this anywhere, so I thought I'd post it to see what you think about it.

It's about the famous Lord Haliax quote: "Who protects you from the Amyr, the singers, the Sithe?". The first and the third are pretty well-explained by now, but the second one still has a lot of shadow around it. I saw theories saying that the singers are the angels led by Tehlu (and Manet :rolleyes: ), but I don't really like that theory because first of all, I don't remember any place in the two books where angels sing?

So here's my guess on the singers: it's based on a quote by Kvothe in WMF, page 288. Simmon's just asked him where would he go if he could go anywhere and here's Kvothe's response:

"I'd go to the Tahlenwald [...] I heard a story once that said the leaders of their tribes aren't great warriors, they're singers.Their songs can heal the sick and make the trees dance"

I find this pretty suggestive. It's also quite logical, since the Tahl are a nomadic people, that they are either chasing after or hiding from the Chandrian (though I personally prefer the first option).

Plus, it gives a fairly good idea about what might happen in the third book. My theory is that Kvothe, once expelled of the University as I believe he will, will go visit the Tahl and find out new information about the Chandrian.

So, what do you think about this ?

Sylvester, welcome. Glad you decided to unlurk.

I agree with you that singers are more shrouded in mystery than the other two. I have now given away my books so exact quotes are beyond me, but the evidence to support the proposition singers=watchers/angels is to be found in the story Skarpi tells in Tarbean in NOTW. Specifically the story on the second day describing the change that Aleph wrought on the Ruach led by Tehlu. One of the phrases that is something like the ruach grew wings and sang songs of power.

now having said that, the Tahl are also strong candidates for being the singers referred to. Apart from what you have quoted, we know very little else about them, although we do know that they know healing for venereal sickness that is unknown in Ademre and possibly anywhere else.

[Tyytan]

Yeah, the quote suggesting the angels were the singers is:

"Then Aleph spoke their long names and they were wreathed in a white fire. The fire danced along their wings and they became swift. The fire flickered in their eyes and they saw into the deepest hearts of men. The fire filled their mouths and they sang songs of power. Then the fire settled on their foreheads like silver stars and they became at once righteous and wise and terrible to behold. Then the fire consumed them and they were gone forever from mortal sight."

Though I'd be more inclined to go with the Tahl still.

[Gaston de Foix]

Yeah, the quote suggesting the angels were the singers is:

"Then Aleph spoke their long names and they were wreathed in a white fire. The fire danced along their wings and they became swift. The fire flickered in their eyes and they saw into the deepest hearts of men. The fire filled their mouths and they sang songs of power. Then the fire settled on their foreheads like silver stars and they became at once righteous and wise and terrible to behold. Then the fire consumed them and they were gone forever from mortal sight."

Though I'd be more inclined to go with the Tahl still.

well there are two arguments for the Watchers. The first is the argument from omission. Skarpi's story doesn't mention them in the list of enemies the Chandrian have, but it is clear that the watchers are enemies: see Cinder derogatively calling Haliax as good as a watcher.

The second argument is that one would think that the Chandrian being powerful would have powerful enemies and a race of people living in Tahl might not come to that level of power and sophistication.

just saying, I do think the existence of the Tahl as enemies would definitely be cooler.

[tze]

Perhaps Encanis is Haliax, but that wouldn't make sense, as Haliax can't die, and it *seems* that Encanis dies in the story told by Trapis about Tehlu and Encanis. Unless the stories about Tehlu and Encanis are wrong--which is possible, given how much we're told that stories are mostly lies with a kernel of truth.

Encanis sleeps/is knocked unconscious, while Haliax can never sleep. Encanis is burned by iron, while iron rusts in the Chandrian's (Stercus's?) presence, and nothing indicates that iron harms them. Encanis is viewed as separate from the seven who refused to cross over to Tehlu. The demons who "stole the skins of men and wore them like clothes" sound an awful lot like the skin dancers, and we know that iron is poison to the Fae. If anything, the story of Encanis seems more about elevating the human population's fear of the Fae into an actual religious requirement than about giving information about Haliax.

[Gaston de Foix]

Encanis sleeps/is knocked unconscious, while Haliax can never sleep. Encanis is burned by iron, while iron rusts in the Chandrian's (Stercus's?) presence, and nothing indicates that iron harms them. Encanis is viewed as separate from the seven who refused to cross over to Tehlu. The demons who "stole the skins of men and wore them like clothes" sound an awful lot like the skin dancers, and we know that iron is poison to the Fae. If anything, the story of Encanis seems more about elevating the human population's fear of the Fae into an actual religious requirement than about giving information about Haliax.

These are all very good points Tze. The resemblance between Encanis and Haliax is amongst other things, the shrouded face and the destruction of six cities each. It's not a perfect fit. Tehlinism seems to be wrong about many important things so it doesn't surprise me that there isn't a perfect fit.

You are right that iron doesn't seem to harm the Chandrian; I assume Cinder is shot by an iron-tipped arrow? (damn not having my books).

You are right that Tehlinism turns fear of the Fae into an actual religious requirement, but look at it the other way, it seems the world at the time Tehlinism was founded had some very nasty members of Fae living in it and so the distrust of Fae and the equation of them with demons seems natural.

[thistlepong]

Encanis sleeps/is knocked unconscious, while Haliax can never sleep. Encanis is burned by iron, while iron rusts in the Chandrian's (Stercus's?) presence, and nothing indicates that iron harms them. Encanis is viewed as separate from the seven who refused to cross over to Tehlu. The demons who "stole the skins of men and wore them like clothes" sound an awful lot like the skin dancers, and we know that iron is poison to the Fae. If anything, the story of Encanis seems more about elevating the human population's fear of the Fae into an actual religious requirement than about giving information about Haliax.

Haliax and Encanis share some unique descriptors; we shouldn't ignore that outright.

In Trapis's Tale, Encanis is the seventh initial refuser, isn't he? And the third is a demon? We don't have any reason not to consider the possibility that the Seven are Faen, partially or wholly.

The skin dancers are: shamble-men, draugar, the mercenary, and the skin stealers in Trapis's Tale.

[11th Heaven]

I've just finished WMF. Sorry to butt in, but my brother told me that apart from the Kingkiller Chronicle itself, there will be a separate trilogy dealing with Kvothe, Bast et al in the present. I couldn't see any mention of this during a very brief period of looking, so is this true?