Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Jon Targaryen

[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Daenerys 2 - Spoilers for ADWD

Recommended Posts

Four warlocks in a boat? I have to wonder if poor Pyat Pree ended up being eaten by his fellows at the behest of one Euron Greyjoy.

That... is a very good catch. I believe you are right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That would be funny :)...and it fits the story,which is even better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice one, OiL! It would also explain how Euron knew so much about Dany.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Other-in-law

To pile some more (though old) speculation on top of that, if Euron lied about visiting the smoking ruins of Valyria, the Warlocks are an excellent candidate for where he picked up the Valyrian dragon-horn. An ancient magical organisation with a grudge against Dany, and an ancient magical artifact with the potential to harm her; a perfect match. Though it's not a Qartheen horn, Qarth is a major center of international shipping, so they could have acquired it centuries before.

It's sort of similar to Theon and Ramsay Snow; one dangerous adversary gets taken down by an even worse one. If Pyat Pree was one of the eaters rather than the eatee, he's even in a similar position to Theon; a miserable wreck held in dehumanising captivity by a monster... but still alive and still having the potential to make an impact on events, for better or worse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
To pile some more (though old) speculation on top of that, if Euron lied about visiting the smoking ruins of Valyria, the Warlocks are an excellent candidate for where he picked up the Valyrian dragon-horn. An ancient magical organisation with a grudge against Dany, and an ancient magical artifact with the potential to harm her; a perfect match. Though it's not a Qartheen horn, Qarth is a major center of international shipping, so they could have acquired it centuries before.

Perhaps. But if that were true, wouldn't the warlocks have tried to grab her dragons already?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Other-in-law
Perhaps. But if that were true, wouldn't the warlocks have tried to grab her dragons already?

You mean back when she was in Qarth? They thought they were luring her to her Doom in their palace of Dust, and then they were in disarray when she burned it and then left town. But then maybe it really shouldn't have taken them any time at all if they had it on hand. It's just speculation, of course. Maybe Euron just learned where to find the horn from them or from drinking their shade of the evening?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You mean back when she was in Qarth? They thought they were luring her to her Doom in their palace of Dust, and then they were in disarray when she burned it and then left town. But then maybe it really shouldn't have taken them any time at all if they had it on hand. It's just speculation, of course. Maybe Euron just learned where to find the horn from them or from drinking their shade of the evening?

I think Euron really has been to Valyria, perhaps the warlocks merely explained what the horn does to him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding warlocks:

It may be relevant to remember that the powers of magic are in fluctuation. Warlocks, along with firemages and pyromancers and would-be lighters of obsidian candles, went through a long dry spell while there were no dragons in the world. I wonder which way the causality tends, whether dragons are reborn because magic is resurgent in power or vice versa, or whether it's a case of multiple overdetermination.... Anyway, we're told in Qarth that warlocks' powers are gone and that warlocks were just pretending still to exercise powers they had in fact lost, and then that the powers of warlocks were seen to be returning. Warlocks may have better knowledge of why their powers wax and wane than, say, the pyromancer who describes to Tyrion the increasing effectiveness of their spells; but maybe not. Maybe they're just as confused as anybody about what's going to work or not. I remember a nice bit where GRRM shows a Citadel acolyte explaining how attempting to light a glass candle is all just a lesson in impossibility-- pople develop rationales for what they understand as fact, ways to make sense of what they know, sometimes creative and clever rationales that serve other purposes than the "real" explanation of which we are aware (IE, glass candles used to burn but stopped when magic stopped working due to or at the same time as the death of the last dragon).

SO warlocks have a number of facts about Dany, and resurgent powers: but no reason to think all their facts or right or that they know what powers they have or how to work them or why. I look forward to seeing how the author fills in these sketches. I'm particularly fond of his tendency to rotate characters in our moral lights: introducing some character with a splash, like Jaime Lannister, to convince us all he's Lucifer, then slowly turning his in our view to complicate those judgments. It's a thoughtful method of narrative development, dare I say, taking wisdom, and tending to nurture wisdom in the attentive reader.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's possible, I suppose. But Valyrian doesn't seem to have influenced the Common Tongue to any extent.
I don't think you understand how the common tongue works. We read it as English, that's not necessarily what it is, when people read the books in other languages the common tongue is whatever language they are reading the book in. If we were to read the book in the language that was actually being spoken we wouldn't understand a word of it. Its just like when we read a Dany chapter, we are reading it as English even though they are speaking in Valyrian.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think warging into dragons is out for now, but might eventually come into play. Tyrion is definitely up for the dragon training job (and is urgently needed). AFFC has a bearing on other aspects of your theory.

I think tyrion definitely up foor the job of training taking into account the fact that he is on his way to Danerys now. I remember a prophecy from ACOK were danerys sees a white haired lion running through a sea of grass. I wonder is there any connection to Tyrion being the white lion but also perhaps the fact that Drogon is now out in the Dothraki sea ie the sea of grass?

All speculation but I cant wait till Tyrion reaches Danearys and sees the dragons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I remember a prophecy from ACOK were danerys sees a white haired lion running through a sea of grass.

I thought that was Jaime, white being the colour of the kingsguard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

is it possible that dany does need the horn, and is probably the only one who could use it without being killed.

she did walk into fire,

i doubt it would turn her lungs to ashes.

but i do hope the is a detour to old Valyria to find artifacts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(From Other in Law)"Four warlocks in a boat? I have to wonder if poor Pyat Pree ended up being eaten by his fellows at the behest of one Euron Greyjoy...."

(from John Quincy Adams) "That is a very good catch. I believe you are right".

I think I'm missing something here. Were the warlocks cannibals? Why would he feed Pyat to his buddies? I read the books recently, but I don't remember anything about the warlocks other than they drank that blue drink and were pretty creepy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
is it possible that dany does need the horn, and is probably the only one who could use it without being killed.

she did walk into fire,

i doubt it would turn her lungs to ashes.

You guys are going to kill me- I don't remember this part either. How do we know Euron's dragon horn will kill anybody? Is it from info from the sneak peek chapters for ADOD, or was this mentioned in AFFC? I thought it worked kind of like a dog whistle, except with dragons. Does it make you inhale fire too?

Dany is really pissing me off. I bet if she had gone and tried to get Drogon herself she might have been able to chain him up herself in the pit and he wouldn't of barbecued 4 of her men. Unlike other people I read about in here, I liked Dany in the beginning, but now I can't stand her and I'll be really depressed if she ends up on the Iron Throne. She's not that realistic, and I don't think she's as bright as some of her political rivals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You guys are going to kill me- I don't remember this part either. How do we know Euron's dragon horn will kill anybody? Is it from info from the sneak peek chapters for ADOD, or was this mentioned in AFFC? I thought it worked kind of like a dog whistle, except with dragons. Does it make you inhale fire too?

Dany is really pissing me off. I bet if she had gone and tried to get Drogon herself she might have been able to chain him up herself in the pit and he wouldn't of barbecued 4 of her men. Unlike other people I read about in here, I liked Dany in the beginning, but now I can't stand her and I'll be really depressed if she ends up on the Iron Throne. She's not that realistic, and I don't think she's as bright as some of her political rivals.

Yes we learn of the Horn Sounder's death in Victarion's second chapter - I believe it's called "The Reaver". It's when Euron and he are conversing in Euron's chambers.

I have heard people for years saying they dislike Daenerys' character. They say her transformation was unrealistic, or that she lacks qualities necessary to make her success seem plausible. I believe George Martin knew EXACTLY what he was about when he created her. I feel she is one of the most remarkable characters he has created. Personally I love Dany.

In the beginning she was weak and frightened, but she had that other thing:

"I know you've got talent, I knew that before you got here. It's the other thing.... I wonder about. Pressure. Changes everything, pressure. Some people you squeeze them, they focus. Others fold. Can you summon your talent at will. Can you deliver on a deadline. Can you sleep at night?"

-Satan

"Pressure makes diamonds."

She has all these qualities. When in the crucible on the plains, what did not kill her made her stronger rather than stranger. Such is so rarely the case it is not surprising some don't believe it plausible. She's often seen saying to herself, "If I look back I am lost." That is moral courage.

She also shows loyalty to her subordinates.

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."

- General George S. Patton, Jr

There are more leadership traits she possesses. She is able to adapt principles to circumstances. The best example is her ability to set aside proper code of conduct when war or atrocity demands; yet she does not set it aside to the extent that Tywin does (Tywin's Bloody Wedding as compared to the violation of ceasefire with the drunken Second Sons as the perfect example). She is more able to adapt principles to circumstances than Tywin.

A leader is a man who can adapt principles to circumstances."

- General George S. Patton, Jr

She is, in short, a born leader. She is not devious. She is not battle-wise. She is not a genius. She is a leader.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes we learn of the Horn Sounder's death in Victarion's second chapter - I believe it's called "The Reaver". It's when Euron and he are conversing in Euron's chambers.

I have heard people for years saying they dislike Daenerys' character. They say her transformation was unrealistic, or that she lacks qualities necessary to make her success seem plausible. I believe George Martin knew EXACTLY what he was about when he created her. I feel she is one of the most remarkable characters he has created. Personally I love Dany.

First of all, thanks for taking the time out to tell me about Euron, that was pretty cool of you. The thing is, when I read the books, I was reading so fast because I couldn't stop myself and I probably didn't retain it as well. However, I am planning a second reading in the coming months before the fall, just in case GRRM DOES decide to finish up this summer *fingers crossed*

About Dany- its not about her growth I find unrealistic, I just think her expectations are unrealistic, she has a child's mentality. "I'm the Queen, so there!" I mean, she constantly has this sense of entitlement that people owe her ships, armies, whatever because she's the rightful heir to westeros. What do they care, out in the free cities?! Sure, the Merchant and Varys probably have something up their sleeves, but for the most part what do they care in Qarth about helping her? I just laughed and laughed every time I read about her barking out commands, especially after Drogo died and she was destitute with only Ser Jorah and a bunch of sick people who were already looked down upon by the other 'races' or whatever you want to call them from the Free Cities.

Yes, she's a leader, she's come a long way, but she's gonna get used in the end because she's just not that bright and because of her sense of entitlement, she believes everyone wants to serve her b/c she's entitled to it. I'm telling you, The fat man who smuggled Tyrion has something up his sleeve and she is just a puppet! (or at least that's my crackpot theory)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
First of all, thanks for taking the time out to tell me about Euron, that was pretty cool of you. The thing is, when I read the books, I was reading so fast because I couldn't stop myself and I probably didn't retain it as well. However, I am planning a second reading in the coming months before the fall, just in case GRRM DOES decide to finish up this summer *fingers crossed*

About Dany- its not about her growth I find unrealistic, I just think her expectations are unrealistic, she has a child's mentality. "I'm the Queen, so there!" I mean, she constantly has this sense of entitlement that people owe her ships, armies, whatever because she's the rightful heir to westeros. What do they care, out in the free cities?! Sure, the Merchant and Varys probably have something up their sleeves, but for the most part what do they care in Qarth about helping her? I just laughed and laughed every time I read about her barking out commands, especially after Drogo died and she was destitute with only Ser Jorah and a bunch of sick people who were already looked down upon by the other 'races' or whatever you want to call them from the Free Cities.

Yes, she's a leader, she's come a long way, but she's gonna get used in the end because she's just not that bright and because of her sense of entitlement, she believes everyone wants to serve her b/c she's entitled to it. I'm telling you, The fat man who smuggled Tyrion has something up his sleeve and she is just a puppet! (or at least that's my crackpot theory)

You're very welcome.

I can honestly say I have no idea if Varys and Illyrio Mopatis have some deeper game than profit. If I had to choose, I would say I feel they are focused on amassing wealth by nurturing the gratitude of Kings and Queens, but they are so devious they could be sorcerers and it would not surprise me, I just do not know. We know Varys and Illyrio claim to be most concerned with destabilizing the Seven Kingdoms to make a place for Daenerys to land. Varys and Illyrio seem to be aiding Daenerys for the sake of a kingdom-size reward, but you could very well be right.

I will tell you truthfully, the ones who I believe will chew her up and spit her out are the Shadowlanders. Not just the Asshai, but their next door neighbors the mask-wearers too. They have dragons of their own who slumber beneath the Shadow (probably spellbound), they had magic even before Dany's dragons were born on a scale with the Others, and they have knowledge of her future that they seem to be using for their own ends. If she survives the shadowbinders' and the Shadowlanders' attempts to use her in the War for the Dawn I will be very surprised.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many long years has it been since GoT was released and yet somehow people still think the Dragon came before the Magic.

The Others and their Zombie minions were up and about long enough before the Prologue to push all the Wildlings (well 99%) into Mance Rayders arms.

Seriously do you think the Others do all their Icey goodness and Necromancy using advanced science?

Where as the Dragons weren't born till the end of GoT like 9 months later.

The Release/Escape of the Others cause Magic to flow back into the World, because of Magic returning the ritual Dany peformed pretty much by accident bought the Dragons to life.

Also this cannot be stressed enough, Dany is NOT immune to fire. Her walking into fire was part of the ritual, it was a one time event.

Anyway is Tolos and Mantarys the first time thoose 2 Cities have been mentioned, cause I can't remember seeing them before.

So New Ghis sent 2 legions and then 2 more? Seems to be what it says. Do the New Legions fight like the Old Legions like the Unsullied. Or did they change their tactics and arms like the Legions of the Late Roman Empire. The Roman Legions adapted the warfare style of the other nations they fought well the ones that impressed them anyway.

As for the size of Free Companys, I somehow doubt there is a standard size. The Brave Companions weren't 500 strong. All being the same size would be detrimental to the income of the "lesser skilled" companies and it would leave a niche for smaller and larger companies. A Range of Free Companies to suit all budgets would be better for all the Free Companys.

As for Pyet and his 3 friends, I don't know wether to feel sorry for them or laugh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×