[BOOK SPOILERS] EP101 Discussion

[Faint]

I'm in agreement that the scene between Cersei and Jaime needed to be as extended as it was. It allows time for unknowing viewers to process the big surprise coming up. If they just showed Cersei's face from the start that would have ruined the moment. It should also be noted that they chose the sexual position they did for the same reason as well -- so that it wouldn't be immediately clear that the woman Jaime was having sex with was his sister.

[MindLikeWarp]

mod hat:

Sex is a fascinating subject and all, but lets keep it at least slightly out of the gutter.

/mod hat.

Sorry. I just really felt it could have had the same impact with less action shown, and something else could have been shown. But I admit I could have phrased it better. And that scene, upon reflection, was a little in the gutter IMO.

[TerraPrime]

Re: FLoW

Eh. I like Cat in the books. I think she's one of the better characters, and certainly one of my favorites. I just don't see that Cat in the first episode. The Cat in the books has ambition, and political acumen. I don't see evidence of that in the first episode. Instead, she's a much more stereotypical woman with concerns only for her family, and she sort of acts as the no-no person to Ned (e.g. "Must you do this?" "Should Bran see this?" "No the King must not take you."). In the books, Cat was anticipatory, and somewhat excited, to have Sansa in the King's court. Here she's just sad that her daughter is leaving her. That's just not the Cat that I know and love from the books.

Re: MindLikeWarp

Basically I didn't like the rape and its impact on how the Dothraki are viewed.

The Dothraki I know from the books is pretty much accurately portrayed in the TV series so far. They rape the people they conquer and treat them as chattel. So, I don't know what romanticized version of the Dothraki culture you got in your head.

[Ser Johan of Pennybridge]

Okay, I might be wrong here, but isn't Cersei supposed to want Jaime to push bran down, while Jaime is doubtful? Doesn't Jaime later ponder upon if the boy could've been scared to silence instead, or was it vice versa?

In the scene it seemed like Cersei didn't want Jaime to push Bran, do you understand what I mean? <_<

[howland_reed]

I'm in agreement that the scene between Cersei and Jaime needed to be as extended as it was. It allows time for unknowing viewers to process the big surprise coming up. If they just showed Cersei's face from the start that would have ruined the moment. It should also be noted that they chose the sexual position they did for the same reason as well -- so that it wouldn't be immediately clear that the woman Jaime was having sex with was his sister.

Actually, I'm almost positive they showed Cersei getting rammed doggy-style cause when they filmed the pilot, she was still pregnant, and that was a body-double.

[Xenophon]

Re. Drogo's wedding. I also thought it was absurdly puny. The worst was when he leads her to the horse, and you could see the crowd was about 2 deep. If at least 3 deaths is traditional, then the guests' odds of surviving that wedding were not high.

I wonder if the first version they shot in Morocco looked better. Perhaps they blew through a lot of their budget for the scene there, so they had to economize in the second version.

[gumby]

Okay, I might be wrong here, but isn't Cersei supposed to want Jaime to push bran down, while Jaime is doubtful? Doesn't Jaime later ponder upon if the boy could've been scared to silence instead, or was it vice versa?

In the scene it seemed like Cersei didn't want Jaime to push Bran, do you understand what I mean? <_<

She never asks or implies that she wants Bran pushed out the window. Jaime just does it.

[Datepalm]

In the books, Cat was anticipatory, and somewhat excited, to have Sansa in the King's court. Here she's just sad that her daughter is leaving her. That's just not the Cat that I know and love from the books.

I agree about Cat's character, but its really nice to get that scene of her with Sansa. Thats something really missing from the books, though she thinks back to brushing Sansa's hair.

Sansa isn't much like imagined her, actually - she's (bear with me) not naive enough. Book!Sansa is a genteel starry eyed romantic, tv!Sansa is a flirty teenager annoyed that mom won't let her hang out with boys after curfew. And she wants a cellphone.

[Lannister? Barely knew 'er]

Okay, I might be wrong here, but isn't Cersei supposed to want Jaime to push bran down, while Jaime is doubtful? Doesn't Jaime later ponder upon if the boy could've been scared to silence instead, or was it vice versa?

In the scene it seemed like Cersei didn't want Jaime to push Bran, do you understand what I mean? <_<

“He saw us,” the woman said shrilly.

“So he did,” the man said.

Bran’s fingers started to slip. He grabbed the ledge with his other hand. Fingernails dug into unyielding stone. The man reached down. “Take my hand,” he said. “Before you fall.”

Bran seized his arm and held on tight with all his strength. The man yanked him up to the ledge. “What are you doing?” the woman demanded.

The man ignored her. He was very strong. He stood Bran up on the sill. “How old are you, boy?”

“Seven,” Bran said, shaking with relief. His fingers had dug deep gouges in the man’s forearm. He let go sheepishly.

The man looked over at the woman. “The things I do for love,” he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove.

[MindLikeWarp]

Re: FLoW

Eh. I like Cat in the books. I think she's one of the better characters, and certainly one of my favorites. I just don't see that Cat in the first episode. The Cat in the books has ambition, and political acumen. I don't see evidence of that in the first episode. Instead, she's a much more stereotypical woman with concerns only for her family, and she sort of acts as the no-no person to Ned (e.g. "Must you do this?" "Should Bran see this?" "No the King must not take you."). In the books, Cat was anticipatory, and somewhat excited, to have Sansa in the King's court. Here she's just sad that her daughter is leaving her. That's just not the Cat that I know and love from the books.

Re: MindLikeWarp

The Dothraki I know from the books is pretty much accurately portrayed in the TV series so far. They rape the people they conquer and treat them as chattel. So, I don't know what romanticized version of the Dothraki culture you got in your head.

But their Alpha Male didn't in the book. Are they really raping their own women? I always thought of it as the women being a part of it and wanting the men to fight for the right...to...party.

Also it showed a different view toward someone like Dany who they didn't conquer, but was offered as a gift of allegiance. I just thought the fact that he didn't, despite what else was seen, showed there was more to them. A positive. Of course there were plenty of negatives, but at least the leader wasn't a "full blown" savage. It softened the whole Dothraki when I read it, not making them all romanticized but far less savage, than the typical literary savages, which before that they seemed fully to be.

[Mya Stone]

Okay, I might be wrong here, but isn't Cersei supposed to want Jaime to push bran down, while Jaime is doubtful? Doesn't Jaime later ponder upon if the boy could've been scared to silence instead, or was it vice versa?

In the scene it seemed like Cersei didn't want Jaime to push Bran, do you understand what I mean? <_<

You're not wrong. Cersei was more than freaked out by Bran seeing them. In the book, Jaime had saved Bran was falling initially, and then...eh, gave in, and let go (with a little shove).

I always heard "The things I do for love" in my head as something with a twinge of regret. But NCW's delivery of "The things I do for love" was so perfectly arrogant, and flippant, and just...matter of fact. I loved it. And it changed my feelings on the scene in the book. (Because really, who thought that Bran would actually live from that fall? I mean character-wise, not reader-wise.)

[awesome possum]

It's been a while since I reread GoT, but does Drogo have the entire horde with him at the wedding? I thought it took place fairly close to Pentos and as a show of "respect" he only traveled with a small contingent (meaning he was paid handsomely to keep the horde away)?

[Balefont]

Re: FLoW

Eh. I like Cat in the books. I think she's one of the better characters, and certainly one of my favorites. I just don't see that Cat in the first episode. The Cat in the books has ambition, and political acumen. I don't see evidence of that in the first episode. Instead, she's a much more stereotypical woman with concerns only for her family, and she sort of acts as the no-no person to Ned (e.g. "Must you do this?" "Should Bran see this?" "No the King must not take you."). In the books, Cat was anticipatory, and somewhat excited, to have Sansa in the King's court. Here she's just sad that her daughter is leaving her. That's just not the Cat that I know and love from the books.

It's going to be tough considering how much of Cat's calculation occurs in her inner monologue and only really shows through expression and the chances when she's able to verbally express herself in the show.

Re: MindLikeWarp

The Dothraki I know from the books is pretty much accurately portrayed in the TV series so far. They rape the people they conquer and treat them as chattel. So, I don't know what romanticized version of the Dothraki culture you got in your head.

They're not romanticized - they are symbolic for black American slaves. Der, Terra.

[ser_nerdick]

It's been a while since I reread GoT, but does Drogo have the entire horde with him at the wedding? I thought it took place fairly close to Pentos and as a show of "respect" he only traveled with a small contingent (meaning he was paid handsomely to keep the horde away)?

No, he brought all 40,000 or something. Because it is mentioned that the townspeople of Pentos were getting nervous about having so many camped outside of their walls and were spending extra money on security.

[Lannister? Barely knew 'er]

It's been a while since I reread GoT, but does Drogo have the entire horde with him at the wedding? I thought it took place fairly close to Pentos and as a show of "respect" he only traveled with a small contingent (meaning he was paid handsomely to keep the horde away)?

Daenerys Targaryen wed Khal Drogo with fear and barbaric splendor in a field beyond the walls of Pentos, for the Dothraki believed that all things of importance in a man’s life must be done beneath the open sky.

Drogo had called his khalasar to attend him and they had come, forty thousand Dothraki warriors and uncounted numbers of women, children, and slaves. Outside the city walls they camped with their vast herds, raising palaces of woven grass, eating everything in sight, and making the good folk of Pentos more anxious with every passing day.

...

The ceremony began at dawn and continued until dusk, an endless day of drinking and feasting and fighting. A mighty earthen ramp had been raised amid the grass palaces, and there Dany was seated beside Khal Drogo, above the seething sea of Dothraki. She had never seen so many people in one place, nor people so strange and frightening.

...

Dany had never felt so alone as she did seated in the midst of that vast horde.

I'm not trying to drive the issue home about how small the wedding was on television- I'm okay with it, honest!- but just offering the source material as to just what sort of teeming masses these bridal guests were. (And I'll bet none of them sat at their assigned tables, either. Barbarians and their lack of wedding etiquette...)

[Axon]

But their Alpha Male didn't in the book. Are they really raping their own women? I always thought of it as the women being a part of it and wanting the men to fight for the right...to...party.

Also it showed a different view toward someone like Dany who they didn't conquer, but was offered as a gift of allegiance. I just thought the fact that he didn't, despite what else was seen, showed there was more to them. A positive. Of course there were plenty of negatives, but at least the leader wasn't a "full blown" savage. It softened the whole Dothraki when I read it, not making them all romanticized but far less savage, than the typical literary savages, which before that they seemed fully to be.

They are, they're with it, and the women in the first episode seemed to be well in line with that ideal. And I agree with your second point as well - the initial love scene with Dany shows the half-way normal, decent guy in Drogo, who up to then had been a silent and entirely imposing figure. The rest is collateral damage - the Dothraki make a living robbin' and stealin', and it's not really portrayed as good or bad, just a fact of life.

[Ser Greguh]

The establishing shot of the reception does show the Dothraki stretching out into the countryside, suggesting that Drogo brought the whole khalassar with him, though I definitely agree that in the subsequent scenes, the budget seams showed a little (as they did in the rather obvious greenscreen of Bran's first climbing scene). To me that's minor quibble, and didn't really damage the scene as a whole, which was more about Dany's fear and the alien and savage nature of the people she was being forced into. Not the strongest scene of the pilot but not the weakest.

I'm surprised more people aren't talking about the shot in Ned's chambers, where the camera focuses on Ned while Catelyn and Luwyn are arguing behind him about whether or not he should go to King's Landing, framed in such a way that they were quite literally the angel and the devil on the shoulder. Of course, this being not about good and evil, you're not really supposed to be sure which is the angel and which is the devil, or if that description at all applies. I thought it was a fantastic, wonderful quiet little shot.

[MindLikeWarp]

It's going to be tough considering how much of Cat' calculation occurs in her inner monologue and only really shows through expression and the chances when she's able to verbally express herself in the show.

They're not romanticized - they are symbolic for black American slaves. Der, Terra.

I would say they are symbolic of everyone that isn't white. Mongols, Arabs, Africans, etc. Foreign, strange, alien. Black slaves, I don't see it, because they aren't slaves and actually have power unlike the slaves.

[Ser Johan of Pennybridge]

“He saw us,” the woman said shrilly.

“So he did,” the man said.

Bran’s fingers started to slip. He grabbed the ledge with his other hand. Fingernails dug into unyielding stone. The man reached down. “Take my hand,” he said. “Before you fall.”

Bran seized his arm and held on tight with all his strength. The man yanked him up to the ledge. “What are you doing?” the woman demanded.

The man ignored her. He was very strong. He stood Bran up on the sill. “How old are you, boy?”

“Seven,” Bran said, shaking with relief. His fingers had dug deep gouges in the man’s forearm. He let go sheepishly.

The man looked over at the woman. “The things I do for love,” he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove.

To clarify: it wasn't in that chapter he (or she) pondered upon it, it was in a different chapter and even book (3 or 4 I think).

[Ser Greguh]

To clarify: it wasn't in that chapter he (or she) pondered upon it, it was in a different chapter and even book (3 or 4 I think).

In Book 3 it's mentioned in a Jaime POV that Cersei had given Jaime no end of grief for having thrown Bran from the window, that she believed they would be able to scare him into silence:

If truth be told, Jaime had come to rue heaving Brandon Stark out that window. Cersei had given him no end of grief afterward, when the boy refused to die. "He was seven, Jaime," she’d berated him. "Even if he understood what he saw, we should have been able to frighten him into silence."