A Thread For Small Questions VIII

[SeaEye]

Hey all,

Is there a general consensus as to whether or not the seemingly incoherent babble from Patchface means anything, and if so, what exactly does it refer to? It would seem that this particular sliver of the story is more likely a flight of fancy for George (but then again, loads of stuff in this book that I thought was extemporaneous have naturally turned out to be absolutely vital!).

Thanks for any info.

CI

[Bahimiron]

Is there a general consensus as to whether or not the seemingly incoherent babble from Patchface means anything, and if so, what exactly does it refer to?

Scroll up.

Is there any kind of special grudge between the Daynes and Oakhearts?

The Oakhearts, being a powerful and very old family in the Marches, have likely clashed with houses in Dorne as long as both have been around. As for specific enmity between the two Darktar does comment that Daynes have been killing Oakhearts for thousands of years. It's hard to say if this means there's really a special history between the two, or if Daynes and Houses of the marches have been fighting for thousands of years and Darkheart, being a cock, just felt like it would be a good idea to take a shot at Oakhearts since Arys was around.

[Knight of Happy Instance]

Double Question guys, but just the first relationed to Asoiaf. The second is more a fancy, but I would appreciate your opinions.

First, I wanted to know if anyone has mentioned any theory about 'a Song of Earth and Air' since it would be a logical step in the seasonal theme of the book. I wish I'm expressing myself correctly, but seems to me that the Children of the Forest look like a force of...the time when the earth was stronger. And maybe the krakens, and the stories about Storm's end have something to do with the seasonal/elemental switch of power.

Of course I'm not saying it's something so literal, more like...a battle beetwen seasons, elements; gods if you wish, or ice ages and vulcanic ages, florest ages and flood-time.

Okay, the second question is more to people interested in history and geography and topography. I was drawing comparisons about the narrow sea and the mediterranean (like in middle-earth), and I was thinking about why the north of Africa is desertic and the south of Europe isn't? Looking at the topographic map I saw a line of mountains in Europe's coast - I know something about high mountains obstructing the sea winds from high-school - so I was thinking if this has anything to do with sea level?

It looks familiar to the mountains in the east coast of Westeros, dragonstone and the eyrie, while the free cities have something of a more desertic area.

Rusty english, I ask forgiveness for any misspeling. =)

[Masha]

Double Question guys, but just the first relationed to Asoiaf. The second is more a fancy, but I would appreciate your opinions.

First, I wanted to know if anyone has mentioned any theory about 'a Song of Earth and Air' since it would be a logical step in the seasonal theme of the book. I wish I'm expressing myself correctly, but seems to me that the Children of the Forest look like a force of...the time when the earth was stronger. And maybe the krakens, and the stories about Storm's end have something to do with the seasonal/elemental switch of power.

Of course I'm not saying it's something so literal, more like...a battle beetwen seasons, elements; gods if you wish, or ice ages and vulcanic ages, florest ages and flood-time.

Okay, the second question is more to people interested in history and geography and topography. I was drawing comparisons about the narrow sea and the mediterranean (like in middle-earth), and I was thinking about why the north of Africa is desertic and the south of Europe isn't? Looking at the topographic map I saw a line of mountains in Europe's coast - I know something about high mountains obstructing the sea winds from high-school - so I was thinking if this has anything to do with sea level?

It looks familiar to the mountains in the east coast of Westeros, dragonstone and the eyrie, while the free cities have something of a more desertic area.

Rusty english, I ask forgiveness for any misspeling. =)

For the first question the answer is that has not been mentioned so far because the main story is about Ice (Starks from the North, The Others) and Fire (Targaryens from South, the Dragons). Just because there are 4 elements doesn't mean all 4 must be included in the story which obviously is not called - Song of all 4 elements.

Second question, is because this is the fictional map created by GRRM and it looks like he took map of Europe with all its topographical features and tilted it a bit but left topographical features intact, so Stormlands are equivalent to Romania, Bolgaria, Yugoslavia which are not desert right now. Lands across narrow sea are Middle-East/Asia - like Turkey going to Mongolia and China which have a lot of deserts and steppes. Dorne is south of Westeros equivalent to Spain and is desert like, land across South sea is equivalent to Africa. Based on this Narrow Sea is equivalent to Black Sea not Mediterranean and South Sea is equivalent to Mediterranean instead. Since GRRM took topographical features off the map of Europe, I doubt that he gave much thought as to why desert is there because of mountains as such other than the value of the desert-like environment for his story.

[baxus]

For the first question the answer is that has not been mentioned so far because the main story is about Ice (Starks from the North, The Others) and Fire (Targaryens from South, the Dragons). Just because there are 4 elements doesn't mean all 4 must be included in the story which obviously is not called - Song of all 4 elements.

ice is not one of the 4 elements, water is.

...

so Stormlands are equivalent to Romania, Bolgaria, Yugoslavia

...

there is no yugoslavia for almost 10 years now ;)

(and the proper yugoslavia ceased to exist 20 years ago)

[Yarl Snow]

there is no yugoslavia for almost 10 years now ;)

And ASOIAF is how old? That's right.. =P

[Knight of Happy Instance]

Danks for the reply.

Yeah, I know the name is just Ice and Fire, but apart from Stark (Ice) and Targaryens (fire), I always though - more of a fancy really - that the Fire and Ice are linked to the Seasons too, and if winter and summer aren't in a kind of struggle, I don't know what the thing about the seasons is about.

If we're talking about elements, Starks as Ice seems a little odd, despite Winterfell and all, because in this case every warm-blooded being would be - as I see - in the Fire's side, with the Other's by the Ice.

I mentioned 'a song of earth and air' to draw a analogy beetwen the dragons being reborn - and the fire spells for wild fire becoming more potent - and the children of the forest, that have 'disappeared' just as dragons had.

But thanks again for the fast reply.

Waiting, waiting, come soon 12th july.

[Morrigan]

Forgive me if it has been discussed in other threads (I'm sure it has), but I did a quick search and didn't see it mentioned. It just hit me on my 3rd re-read: is it possible Meryn Trant is actually Syrio, given the obvious possibility of Syrio being a Faceless Man?

Meryn Trant beats up Sansa without a second thought on Joffrey's orders, and behaves somewhat petulantly around Jaime in ASoS. And what would be his purpose anyway? Sorry, but that's one of the worse theories yet...

[MrDoog]

Just a quick question concerning the R+L=J theory without getting into it too much..

If this does turn out to be correct won't Jon Snow still be a bastard? Had Rhaegar and Lyanna gotten married wouldn't this be illegal since he's already married to Elia Martell?

[Galen M]

Just a quick question concerning the R+L=J theory without getting into it too much..

If this does turn out to be correct won't Jon Snow still be a bastard? Had Rhaegar and Lyanna gotten married wouldn't this be illegal since he's already married to Elia Martell?

Targaryen's practiced polygamy, so it could be ok

[Anaxilas]

I have a question regarding the origin of the continents. In the lands eventually settled by the Greeks, there were left over place names that were of non-Indo European roots, the so called Pelasgians. These archaic suffixes inculde -nthos, -ttos and -ssos. The last one is why I ask, obviously in reference to Essos.

Do you suppose GRRM chose the name Essos in awareness of the subtleties in pre-historic language? Do you suppose Essos carried for him a sense of primordial age that fit in with the supposed magic and rise and fall of empires that categorize the east?

In the same vein, do you believe then that Essos was an entity first and its inhabitants went on to explore the other continents and prescribe them based on their geographic relation to Essos? Both Westeros and Sothyros have the normal masculine Greek ending of -os, like in Kos, Anastasios, Demetrios, etc, which though old, comes several centuries later.

I know this is very specific and perhaps odd, but I wonder if anyone has heard mention from George or the world book about the naming of the continents.

[Morrigan]

Does the word "Essos" appear at all in the books? I've been re-reading them all (I'm in the middle of AFFC right now) and don't recall ever seeing it. Is it canon?

[Masha]

Meryn Trant beats up Sansa without a second thought on Joffrey's orders, and behaves somewhat petulantly around Jaime in ASoS. And what would be his purpose anyway? Sorry, but that's one of the worse theories yet...

While I agree that I see no point in Syrio imitating Meryn Trant, since there isn't any point for him remaining in Red Keep.

But if it were the case and Syrio was the Faceless Man, then wouldn't he have imittated Meryn behaviour completely till the point he needed to do his job? When Faceless Men become another person they change entirely and from what Jaqen told Arya, and old relationships and behaviours are gone (or strongly surprissed). If Syrio was Faceless Man who became Meryn he wouldn't have hesitated to beat up Arya who he knew and taughts, not mentioning Sansa whom Syrio didn't even met and just heard by hearsay from Arya (not the best character witness for his eldest sister). As for him ating petulantly around Jaime, wouldn't it been the way Meryn acted?

[Morrigan]

Uh yeah... then again you could say the same with any character. What's the evidence that Syrio was Faceless Man? Seriously? There is none, and there is no point in using Meryn's identity whatsoever. Might as well claim that Jhalabar Xho or Ser Mandon Moore are Faceless Men while we're at it...

[Galen M]

What's the evidence that Syrio was Faceless Man? Seriously?

He's from Braavos, as are the faceless men. His death correlates with Jaqen's appearance. As a rule of thumb, however, I tend to automatically ignore any FM conspiracy theory.

[Anaxilas]

Does the word "Essos" appear at all in the books? I've been re-reading them all (I'm in the middle of AFFC right now) and don't recall ever seeing it. Is it canon?

Beats me, :dunno: But it does appear on every fan map and in the Wiki of Ice and Fire.

[Galen M]

Does the word "Essos" appear at all in the books? I've been re-reading them all (I'm in the middle of AFFC right now) and don't recall ever seeing it. Is it canon?

yes, it's canon

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2997/

[Are the seasons irregular only in Westeros or also in the eastern continent?]

The eastern continent (Essos) is further south than Westeros, and feels the North of the great sweep of the eastern sweep of the eastern lands is a huge ocean, the Shivering Sea. Only Westeros extends to the far north.

[Morrigan]

yes, it's canon

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2997/

Cool, ok, but it doesn't appear textually in the books, right?

[Asarlai]

While I agree that I see no point in Syrio imitating Meryn Trant, since there isn't any point for him remaining in Red Keep.

But if it were the case and Syrio was the Faceless Man, then wouldn't he have imittated Meryn behaviour completely till the point he needed to do his job? When Faceless Men become another person they change entirely and from what Jaqen told Arya, and old relationships and behaviours are gone (or strongly surprissed). If Syrio was Faceless Man who became Meryn he wouldn't have hesitated to beat up Arya who he knew and taughts, not mentioning Sansa whom Syrio didn't even met and just heard by hearsay from Arya (not the best character witness for his eldest sister). As for him ating petulantly around Jaime, wouldn't it been the way Meryn acted?

People came up with the FM thing because they wanted Syrio to live. Would you want him to live if he beat up little girls on Joffrey's command? I think it would ruin the character of Syrio.

[Morrigan]

He's from Braavos, as are the faceless men.

That's the reason? Really? Nevermind the fallacy (Timothy McVeigh is American, ergo all Americans are terrorists!...), but Jaqen is allegedly from Lorath. And Arya meets a lot of other Braavosi in AFFC, obviously not all of them are Faceless Men...

His death correlates with Jaqen's appearance.

Not really, it's several days later. In the narrative, it's a whole book later.

As a rule of thumb, however, I tend to automatically ignore any FM conspiracy theory.

We're in agreement there.