The quote that sums up how bad Dany is

[SingleMort]

I suppose I have not made it clear enough that I do not support Viserys or anything he did. This is a thread about Dany and her treatment and feeling of superiority. My sole opinion on Viserys is that he a sad and mentally disturbed man who needs help that no one will ever give him. And I'm glad you think my "trolling" is some sort of skillful, just not very.

Right well just what sort of help could she give him? Somehow I don't think they have care homes in Westeros. And if Dany had even suggested that he might be mentally ill he would have probably beaten the crap out of her.

[The Sand Snake]

Comparing her to Theon and Jaime, seriiously I don't where the hell you're getting that from.

Dany is smarter than Theon and Jaime put together. She's got herself dragons, an army and conquered 3 three cities all by her own initiative. Theon couldn't even hold Winterfell and made a complete mess of the whole thing.

I dont agree with any of the points you made here. Theon couldnt hold Winterfell because he had 30 men. Would have been impossible for even Tywin to do. He may have been stupid for taking it, but not for failing to hold it. And Dany got herself Dragons? Illyrio gave her Dragons and then she hatched them after she screwed up and got her husband AND unborn child killed. Thats one of the stupider things anyones done in the series by my account. And she didnt take three cities by her own innitiaive. Maybe one, but I would not say all three. Other than Astapor, she just had the better army and generals. Danys been mostly lucky with maybe a little bit of guile(Astapor) thrown in there.

I agree with the OP's points mostly, other than the fact that is sounds slightly sexist(Not saying you are at all, just that it gives that vibe). The reason I dont like Dany is that she seems dumb and yes she did seem to me, to not really appreciate Viserys at all, even though he was cruel sometimes. Viserys had the harder situation of the two. He knew what he had to become. And attempted to get there. Dany just lucked into becoming a horselords wife and then getting three stone dragon eggs. Plus, IMO in the end she'll turn out just as psycho as Viserys. Bloods blood

[Smashing Praise]

OP, I'm sorry, but you're either completely unfair and biased, or you choose to deliberately ignore the facts.

Exactly which part of the "horrific" quote in incorrect? That Viserys was cruel? Check. That he was weak? Check. Frightened? Check. That Viserys was her brother? Check. That his dragon will don what he could not (i.e. something useful)? Check.

If you are 13 year old expecting to be raped in a few hours, I dare you say you would nt fear and face your troubles like a man.

Maybe, just maybe, because Viserys would smack her around if she tried to do otherwise.

And here you're contradiciting yourself. When she finnaly had a chance to "carve out your own path in life", you accuse her of being high and mighty. Lets face it, even after she became Khaleesi, she tried to be kind to her brother (offering him shirt, generally making suggestions how he could better fit in Dothraki society). Viserys was "high and mighty" one.

As someone already noted, you speak like ghost of Viserys here. She was his wife, who even eventually earned his respect (not an easy thing to do, I imagine), not his whore.

Said brother held her at sword point and threatened to cut her stomach in "brutal and painful way".

There's much more, but others already covered it up.

I am not quite sure you read my post correctly. The horrific part is that Dany proclaims all these things when she herself exhibited them in spades. Her wedding situation is not ideal, but it is what most women of Westeros go through. You do not choose your husband, you do not choose if you want to sleep with him. She has every right to be scared, but I find it appalling that she categorizes Viserys as scared when she has been most of her life. Smack her around? She could flee into the night, kill him in his sleep, any number of things. She has not the courage or mettle to do such things. She does act high and mighty, just as Viserys does. However, does it make her correct to just because she has an army following her? One that soon deserts her when her husband dies? She is just as foolish as Viserys in this respect. As I said before, I used whore facetiously to mock Dothraki culture, not Dany. Dany is not a whore. And Viserys, a madman who drunk, said that. He needs help. Dany never gave it to him. She should have tried to save him and send him to Pentos.

There, those are all facts. What am I ignoring?

[Smashing Praise]

Right well just what sort of help could she give him? Somehow I don't think they have care homes in Westeros. And if Dany had even suggested that he might be mentally ill he would have probably beaten the crap out of her.

She has the power to have him dragged back to Pentos. Why did she never do this, instead of letting him be humiliated and killed? It would have been tough love to break his pride like that, but love nonetheless. Instead she decided to leave him to his own devices, which is completely foolish.

I dont agree with any of the points you made here. Theon couldnt hold Winterfell because he had 30 men. Would have been impossible for even Tywin to do. He may have been stupid for taking it, but not for failing to hold it. And Dany got herself Dragons? Illyrio gave her Dragons and then she hatched them after she screwed up and got her husband AND unborn child killed. Thats one of the stupider things anyones done in the series by my account. And she didnt take three cities by her own innitiaive. Maybe one, but I would not say all three. Other than Astapor, she just had the better army and generals. Danys been mostly lucky with maybe a little bit of guile(Astapor) thrown in there.

I agree with the OP's points mostly, other than the fact that is sounds slightly sexist(Not saying you are at all, just that it gives that vibe). The reason I dont like Dany is that she seems dumb and yes she did seem to me, to not really appreciate Viserys at all, even though he was cruel sometimes. Viserys had the harder situation of the two. He knew what he had to become. And attempted to get there. Dany just lucked into becoming a horselords wife and then getting three stone dragon eggs. Plus, IMO in the end she'll turn out just as psycho as Viserys. Bloods blood

Ah I made such a bad point calling her a whore. It is meant to mock the Dothraki, not Dany. I don't like Dany, but a whore she is not. And I am not trying to be sexist in the least - I should restrain myself a bit more. Theon conquered Winterfell, which was extremely clever. He was just an idiot to try and hold it. Had he burned it down and took Bran and Rickon as hostages, he'd be regarded as a military genius. But I am glad you can agree with me, especially about Dany's "achievements."

[Xenophon]

Cruel, yes, but he could have left her to die instead of feeding her, finding shelter for her, etc. The point I am trying to make is that Dany never seems to reciprocate this - she basically expects him to go Dothraki while she is off doing her own thing. Viserys was drunk and crazed - he definitely needed punishment, but not a cruel death. ... Viserys is obviously mentally ill, and now that Dany is in a position of power she should have strived to find a way to help him. The books have really no evidence of this that I can recall, and whenever he lashes out, she just finds some way to punish him and forgets, instead of trying to help him at a later time.

My point is that when she overcomes her fears, it is only because she has thousands of warriors and her beck and call - why not be fearless when you are completely untouchable? ... I find it in quite bad taste to bring up her brother's fear and weakness in any capacity when she herself was more scared and weak than he during that time. It is the "pot calling the kettle black." And I still do not see how, at that point in the story, Dan has achieved a single thing.

Ok, I've cut anf pasted a bit from you last post, to highlight what seem to me to be your two main points:

1. 
   
2. Viserys helped raise Dany, yet Dany did not help Viserys when he was in need.
   
3. Her accomplishments are relatively unimpressive, so she has no right to talk about how pathetic her brother was.
   

Is that about right?

Re. your first point, I have two objections. First, I don't give Viserys all that much credit for raising Dany. It certainly was commendable, but it also served his interests to have a sister to marry off, so it's not like he went greatly out of his way to protect her. When you add in the cruelty, I don't think she owed him all that much, to put it bluntly. But more importantly, I think she did try to help him. You seem to be overlooking Dany's numerous attempts to please Viserys. She saved his life once, tried giving him presents, etc. only to be rebuffed each time. Right up until the very end, Viserys refused to accept any help or show any gratitude because he couldn't accept that his sister now had more power than him. As for his final moments, I think when Viserys threatened her and her child, she realized he was dangerous, incapable of ever ruling the 7 Kingdoms, and she would be better off with him dead. Yes, it was cruel to sit there and let Drogo kill him that way, but she's pretty tough-minded.

Re. whether Dany accomplished enough to have the right to speak about Viserys' weakness, I don't really understand what your objection is. Viserys was weak and frightened. Even you seem to agree that that's just a fact. So I don't see why you think it's in bad taste to speak the truth. It's not like she was saying he was frightened but I wasn't. She's saying he failed, but I won't. What's wrong with that. After her rebirth through fire she vows to become strong, and she succeeds. If thinking of her brother's failure helps with that, more power to her, IMO.

[Mike]

Being "sold" is common even in Westeros - she is a high born woman, it is not her place to argue who she marries. My point is that when she overcomes her fears, it is only because she has thousands of warriors and her beck and call - why not be fearless when you are completely untouchable? And I stand by my point with Vis and Illyrio - no matter how well she has adapted, she would not be married to the Khal if not for them. She would be no one. I am not defending Viserys's actions - he was a fool and mentally disturbed. I suppose my original post did not get that out. But I pity him, especially because the woman he raised turned her back on him.

She doesn't overcome her fear because of the thousands of warriors at her beck and call. She was fearful and depressed and was contemplating suicide when she had the dragon dream and woke up stronger. Her situation almost overcame her, but she powered through it, and that is where her strength and courage began to develop.

As for your point concerning Viserys and Illyrio: I still do not understand why Danaerys should be thankful to those two because things happened to work out for her. They did not marry her off for her own benefit, not even with the smallest regard for her happiness or well being. They did it for their own selfish reasons. It turned out alright because she had the strength to make it that way and because Drogo was not "a different sort of man" as she said.

Viserys was mentally disturbed, but he was also weak and cruel and completely unwilling to adapt to his surroundings. Dany ordered the khalasar to stop, and he takes it as a direct command to him. She invites him to supper, and he gets all pissed off because he takes it as another command. He's drunk and stupidly disregards a serious Dothraki custom, and she sends Ser Jorah to take him in hand, but he shoves Jorah away. What help could she have given him? He would take no orders from her, he would accept no help from her. If she begged Drogo to send him back to Illyrio, he probably would have done something stupid enough to get him killed earlier. She is not responsible for her idiotic brother's death.

[Xenophon]

She has the power to have him dragged back to Pentos. Why did she never do this, instead of letting him be humiliated and killed? It would have been tough love to break his pride like that, but love nonetheless. Instead she decided to leave him to his own devices, which is completely foolish.

I don't think she realized he would be stupid enough to draw a weapon in the city. And once he did, there was nothing she could do to save him. The law is pretty clear: draw a weapon = death. All she could do was beg that they kill him in a different way.

[Smashing Praise]

Ok, I've cut anf pasted a bit from you last post, to highlight what seem to me to be your two main points:

1. 
   
2. Viserys helped raise Dany, yet Dany did not help Viserys when he was in need.
   
3. Her accomplishments are relatively unimpressive, so she has no right to talk about how pathetic her brother was.
   

Is that about right?

Re. your first point, I have two objections. First, I don't give Viserys all that much credit for raising Dany. It certainly was commendable, but it also served his interests to have a sister to marry off, so it's not like he went greatly out of his way to protect her. When you add in the cruelty, I don't think she owed him all that much, to put it bluntly. But more importantly, I think she did try to help him. You seem to be overlooking Dany's numerous attempts to please Viserys. She saved his life once, tried giving him presents, etc. only to be rebuffed each time. Right up until the very end, Viserys refused to accept any help or show any gratitude because he couldn't accept that his sister now had more power than him. As for his final moments, I think when Viserys threatened her and her child, she realized he was dangerous, incapable of ever ruling the 7 Kingdoms, and she would be better off with him dead. Yes, it was cruel to sit there and let Drogo kill him that way, but she's pretty tough-minded.

Re. whether Dany accomplished enough to have the right to speak about Viserys' weakness, I don't really understand what your objection is. Viserys was weak and frightened. Even you seem to agree that that's just a fact. So I don't see why you think it's in bad taste to speak the truth. It's not like she was saying he was frightened but I wasn't. She's saying he failed, but I won't. What's wrong with that. After her rebirth through fire she vows to become strong, and she succeeds. If thinking of her brother's failure helps with that, more power to her, IMO.

Yes, you've summed it up quite well. To begin, I do not think Viserys was even clever enough to realize Dany was a bargaining piece, especially early on in life. I think he raised his sister out of duty to family, not greed. He was cruel, yes, but I firmly believe he was insane, exacerbated by how terrible his life has been and how much crap is on his shoulders. Yes, there came to a point where what Dany was receiving (at the cost to her of nothing) pushed him far over the edge, but this is where I think Dany should have firmly commanded him to go back to Pentos. If he refused, she should have had some Dothraki chain him and send him there. If she loved her brother, which she should, she would have found a way to save him, if she couldn't be bothered to teach him humility.

As for your second point, perhaps the way I read it just disgusted me more than it should have. Remembering how she just let him die, than a couple months later saying "he was useless, but at least this dragon won't be" really made my stomach turn. People view Dany as this great heroine who is filled with morality - but how can she say things like that?

[The Sand Snake]

Ah I made such a bad point calling her a whore. It is meant to mock the Dothraki, not Dany. I don't like Dany, but a whore she is not. And I am not trying to be sexist in the least - I should restrain myself a bit more. Theon conquered Winterfell, which was extremely clever. He was just an idiot to try and hold it. Had he burned it down and took Bran and Rickon as hostages, he'd be regarded as a military genius. But I am glad you can agree with me, especially about Dany's "achievements."

Yeah no worries about that. The whore thing was off for sure but I figured there was no way you were trying to be sexist.

I agree completely about Theon. Taking it was one of the more ballsy, awesome things anyones done in the series I think. But no one with thirty men could have held it. He defiently should have razed it. And yeah I agree abotu Dany's achievements. I really don't see anything that shes done as being HER achievements other than Astapor.

She reminds me a little bit of the U.S. government with all the conflicts we've got ourself in around the world. Kills the slave masters just to see other people replace him who are just as bad. Doesn't stay long enough to see real change, ect. I've always thought she was secretly a U.S. metaphor in that way

[SingleMort]

I dont agree with any of the points you made here. Theon couldnt hold Winterfell because he had 30 men. Would have been impossible for even Tywin to do. He may have been stupid for taking it, but not for failing to hold it. And Dany got herself Dragons? Illyrio gave her Dragons and then she hatched them after she screwed up and got her husband AND unborn child killed. Thats one of the stupider things anyones done in the series by my account. And she didnt take three cities by her own innitiaive. Maybe one, but I would not say all three. Other than Astapor, she just had the better army and generals. Danys been mostly lucky with maybe a little bit of guile(Astapor) thrown in there.

I agree with the OP's points mostly, other than the fact that is sounds slightly sexist(Not saying you are at all, just that it gives that vibe). The reason I dont like Dany is that she seems dumb and yes she did seem to me, to not really appreciate Viserys at all, even though he was cruel sometimes. Viserys had the harder situation of the two. He knew what he had to become. And attempted to get there. Dany just lucked into becoming a horselords wife and then getting three stone dragon eggs. Plus, IMO in the end she'll turn out just as psycho as Viserys. Bloods blood

1.Appologies I meant that Theon was stupid to take Winterfell

2.Dany hatching may have been dumb luck but I don't think I was entirely. I believe there is a scene where Dany places one of the eggs in the fire a thinks she can see it move.

3.Dany tricked the slavers into selling her the unsullied for a dragon she had no intention of giving them. She then used the unsullied to sack that city. This was all her own plan.

4.Dany tricks the mercenaries at the next city by getting one group drunk and having the other thrown in turmoil believing that they other mercenaries will betray them. Dany also tells the city's leaders she will not attack for 3 days then attacks that very night. This was her plan.

5. Dany breaks apart the Ilyrio's ships to use as battering rams and other siege equipment to take the third city and also orders a number of her army to infiltrate it via the sewers. This was her plan

I hope you're planning a reread soon because you seem to have forgotten vast sections of Storm of Swords. That or you've chosen to forget them.

[CatelynFan]

Remembering how she just let him die, than a couple months later saying "he was useless, but at least this dragon won't be" really made my stomach turn. People view Dany as this great heroine who is filled with morality - but how can she say things like that?

I see it in another light. After her brother had abused her for years, called her a "horselord's slut," and threatened to cut out her unborn child, she brushed it all off by saying, "he was weak," and even named a dragon after him. That's pretty damn forgiving when you think about it. Considering what she's suffered at Viserys's hands, I'd expect her to be going through a lot more mental turmoil.

[Smashing Praise]

She doesn't overcome her fear because of the thousands of warriors at her beck and call. She was fearful and depressed and was contemplating suicide when she had the dragon dream and woke up stronger. Her situation almost overcame her, but she powered through it, and that is where her strength and courage began to develop.

As for your point concerning Viserys and Illyrio: I still do not understand why Danaerys should be thankful to those two because things happened to work out for her. They did not marry her off for her own benefit, not even with the smallest regard for her happiness or well being. They did it for their own selfish reasons. It turned out alright because she had the strength to make it that way and because Drogo was not "a different sort of man" as she said.

Viserys was mentally disturbed, but he was also weak and cruel and completely unwilling to adapt to his surroundings. Dany ordered the khalasar to stop, and he takes it as a direct command to him. She invites him to supper, and he gets all pissed off because he takes it as another command. He's drunk and stupidly disregards a serious Dothraki custom, and she sends Ser Jorah to take him in hand, but he shoves Jorah away. What help could she have given him? He would take no orders from her, he would accept no help from her. If she begged Drogo to send him back to Illyrio, he probably would have done something stupid enough to get him killed earlier. She is not responsible for her idiotic brother's death.

I'm saying it is easier to be fearless when you have thousands of warriors. That cannot be denied. As for Viserys and Illyrio, if someone gives me a lottery ticket because they think it will bring them better luck, and I win a million dollars, should I not be thankful to them regardless? We can't know that if Dany had sat down with Vis and truly tried to help him in a way that wouldn't offend him it would have helped. However, as I said before, she did have the power to send him back to Pentos at any time, but she never did. She did not care enough for her brother to realize what was happening to him over time.

Yeah no worries about that. The whore thing was off for sure but I figured there was no way you were trying to be sexist.

I agree completely about Theon. Taking it was one of the more ballsy, awesome things anyones done in the series I think. But no one with thirty men could have held it. He defiently should have razed it. And yeah I agree abotu Dany's achievements. I really don't see anything that shes done as being HER achievements other than Astapor.

She reminds me a little bit of the U.S. government with all the conflicts we've got ourself in around the world. Kills the slave masters just to see other people replace him who are just as bad. Doesn't stay long enough to see real change, ect. I've always thought she was secretly a U.S. metaphor in that way

Theon's taking of Winterfell is definitely one of the most exciting parts of the series. I just hate that he let his pride be his downfall. The way I like to see it, Eddard, Luwin, or whoever taught Robb and Theon war taught them to be excellent commanders and strategists, but little else. They can fight, but they both don't know how to handle things outside of battle. As for the US - Dany thing, that is extremely clever. I wish I had though of it.

1.Appologies I meant that Theon was stupid to take Winterfell

2.Dany hatching may have been dumb luck but I don't think I was entirely. I believe there is a scene where Dany places one of the eggs in the fire a thinks she can see it move.

3.Dany tricked the slavers into selling her the unsullied for a dragon she had no intention of giving them. She then used the unsullied to sack that city. This was all her own plan.

4.Dany tricks the mercenaries at the next city by getting one group drunk and having the other thrown in turmoil believing that they other mercenaries will betray them. Dany also tells the city's leaders she will not attack for 3 days then attacks that very night. This was her plan.

5. Dany breaks apart the Ilyrio's ships to use as battering rams and other siege equipment to take the third city and also orders a number of her army to infiltrate it via the sewers. This was her plan

I hope you're planning a reread soon because you seem to have forgotten vast sections of Storm of Swords. That or you've chosen to forget them.

1. It was genius to take, foolish to try to keep.

2. I apologize but I can see it as nothing else than luck. I remember that slight foreshadowing scene, but no sane person would think that's enough to walk into a pyre. Hell, for all we know, she didn't have to walk into it - maybe the dragons woulda hatched regardless.

3. I acknowledge this, but this is such a weak, weak plan. Only in fiction would it have worked as well as it did, and there was positively no sign that the Unsullied would fight for her. Would Tywin or Eddard or Stannis ever risk their whole life on a gambit like this?

4. 5. I find these chapters to be so... blah. It is hard to believe sometimes. Dany is what, 14? And all of the sudden she is more clever than even Tywin Lannister? Able to beat people who have spent their whole life as soldiers with straight trickery? This is another reason I do not like Dany - her enemies are cardboard and idiotic, and she always wins in the end - but best save that point for another discussion. What if this situation had happened in Westeros, where she was meeting with Stannis or Tywin? Do you think something like those tricks would ever fly against them? Do you think she has the military knowledge to beat old veterans like them?

[The Sand Snake]

1.Appologies I meant that Theon was stupid to take Winterfell

2.Dany hatching may have been dumb luck but I don't think I was entirely. I believe there is a scene where Dany places one of the eggs in the fire a thinks she can see it move.

3.Dany tricked the slavers into selling her the unsullied for a dragon she had no intention of giving them. She then used the unsullied to sack that city. This was all her own plan.

4.Dany tricks the mercenaries at the next city by getting one group drunk and having the other thrown in turmoil believing that they other mercenaries will betray them. Dany also tells the city's leaders she will not attack for 3 days then attacks that very night. This was her plan.

5. Dany breaks apart the Ilyrio's ships to use as battering rams and other siege equipment to take the third city and also orders a number of her army to infiltrate it via the sewers. This was her plan

I hope you're planning a reread soon because you seem to have forgotten vast sections of Storm of Swords. That or you've chosen to forget them.

I havent chosen to forget them. As for your point 3, I stated that Dany showed some smarts there. She was deceitful but I liked that. As for the other cities, you are right about Yunkai. She attacked while they were drunk and fighting

But you are wrong about the third city. She does not come up with the plan herself. Ben Plumm comes up with the plan. He tells her about the sewer, ect because he has been there. Dany just says that that plan sounds the most promising.

So were both half right I guess

[SingleMort]

I'm saying it is easier to be fearless when you have thousands of warriors. That cannot be denied. As for Viserys and Illyrio, if someone gives me a lottery ticket because they think it will bring them better luck, and I win a million dollars, should I not be thankful to them regardless? We can't know that if Dany had sat down with Vis and truly tried to help him in a way that wouldn't offend him it would have helped. However, as I said before, she did have the power to send him back to Pentos at any time, but she never did. She did not care enough for her brother to realize what was happening to him over time.

Theon's taking of Winterfell is definitely one of the most exciting parts of the series. I just hate that he let his pride be his downfall. The way I like to see it, Eddard, Luwin, or whoever taught Robb and Theon war taught them to be excellent commanders and strategists, but little else. They can fight, but they both don't know how to handle things outside of battle. As for the US - Dany thing, that is extremely clever. I wish I had though of it.

1. It was genius to take, foolish to try to keep.

2. I apologize but I can see it as nothing else than luck. I remember that slight foreshadowing scene, but no sane person would think that's enough to walk into a pyre. Hell, for all we know, she didn't have to walk into it - maybe the dragons woulda hatched regardless.

3. I acknowledge this, but this is such a weak, weak plan. Only in fiction would it have worked as well as it did, and there was positively no sign that the Unsullied would fight for her. Would Tywin or Eddard or Stannis ever risk their whole life on a gambit like this?

4. 5. I find these chapters to be so... blah. It is hard to believe sometimes. Dany is what, 14? And all of the sudden she is more clever than even Tywin Lannister? Able to beat people who have spent their whole life as soldiers with straight trickery? This is another reason I do not like Dany - her enemies are cardboard and idiotic, and she always wins in the end - but best save that point for another discussion. What if this situation had happened in Westeros, where she was meeting with Stannis or Tywin? Do you think something like those tricks would ever fly against them? Do you think she has the military knowledge to beat old veterans like them?

Well This seems to be more a citicism of the author than of the character. If you think the writing is that bad why read the books?

EDIT: And yes I think she will be able to beat people like Tywin some day. Especially if she has people like Tyrion guiding her. A lot of the people in Westeros have already achieved their peak, their corwning achievement their greatness. But Dany is young and learns quickly and her star is still rising.

[SingleMort]

I havent chosen to forget them. As for your point 3, I stated that Dany showed some smarts there. She was deceitful but I liked that. As for the other cities, you are right about Yunkai. She attacked while they were drunk and fighting

But you are wrong about the third city. She does not come up with the plan herself. Ben Plumm comes up with the plan. He tells her about the sewer, ect because he has been there. Dany just says that that plan sounds the most promising.

So were both half right I guess

Plumm told her about the sewers but the ships were her idea

[BarrileteCosmico]

I suppose some could understand a lifetime of emotional and physical abuse, guilt from the 'murder of mom' that Viserys blamed her for, and treating her like an object by selling her off for an army as caring and protecting for his little sister. :rolleyes:

[Smashing Praise]

Well This seems to be more a citicism of the author than of the character. If you think the writing is that bad why read the books?

EDIT: And yes I think she will be able to beat people like Tywin some day. Especially if she has people like Tyrion guiding her. A lot of the people in Westeros have already achieved their peak, their corwning achievement their greatness. But Dany is young and learns quickly and her star is still rising.

The way I see it, the writing varies wildly. Characters like Dany and Jon anger me when they stumble into greatness, but I love hearing about Jaime, Davos, Theon and so many other that fight tooth and nail and only to be punished.

And with dragons, of course she could beat Tywin. Anyone could. But I can't see how she could ever muster up the political know how, hard knowledge of war and the ability to make tough, immoral decisions to win that someone like Tywin has honed his whole life. And sure, people like Tyrion and Jorah make Dany better, but Tywin doesn't need people like that - only himself. Hell, his number two (Kevan) is basically his shadow. If it isn't obvious, I think Tywin is the greatest man the realm has ever scene - but we both stray way too far from the original topic now.

[The Sand Snake]

Well This seems to be more a citicism of the author than of the character. If you think the writing is that bad why read the books?

EDIT: And yes I think she will be able to beat people like Tywin some day. Especially if she has people like Tyrion guiding her. A lot of the people in Westeros have already achieved their peak, their corwning achievement their greatness. But Dany is young and learns quickly and her star is still rising.

It doesnt bother me that Dany will one day be a great leader. What bothers me is that she seems to luck into wat to much. And she seems to know more about war than she should. I love the writing but its fairly obvious to me that she shouldnt know anything about war. Where would she have learned it.

[SingleMort]

So crucifying over a hundred slavers isn't a tough immoral decision?

You make it sound like the only way to win a battle/war is to become the most evil bastard imaginable. Like the only to beat the Nazis is to become a Nazi.

And Tywin wasn't that great when Tyrion put an arrow in his groin and he crapped himself.

[Smashing Praise]

So crucifying over a hundred slavers isn't a tough immoral decision?

You make it sound like the only way to win a battle/war is to become the most evil bastard imaginable. Like the only to beat the Nazis is to become a Nazi.

And Tywin wasn't that great when Tyrion put an arrow in his groin and he crapped himself.

Not really. They are the enemy and their lives are forfeit to you. How is it hard to decide what to do with them? It isn't about being evil, it's about being unafraid to make evil decisions that lead to the greater good. People like Jon and Dany, I feel, don't have to make decisions like this - they win no matter what. Like with Jon and Ygritte.

You are aware every human defecates upon death, right? And does that mean every person when snuck up upon and killed by a cheap shot ceases to be great?