The quote that sums up how bad Dany is

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I dont agree with any of the points you made here. Theon couldnt hold Winterfell because he had 30 men. Would have been impossible for even Tywin to do. He may have been stupid for taking it, but not for failing to hold it. And Dany got herself Dragons? Illyrio gave her Dragons and then she hatched them after (1)she screwed up and got her husband AND unborn child killed. Thats one of the stupider things anyones done in the series by my account. And she didnt take three cities by her own innitiaive. Maybe one, but I would not say all three. Other than Astapor, she just had the better army and generals. Danys been mostly lucky with maybe a little bit of guile(Astapor) thrown in there.

I agree with the OP's points mostly, other than the fact that is sounds slightly sexist(Not saying you are at all, just that it gives that vibe). The reason I dont like Dany is that she seems dumb and yes she did seem to me, to not really appreciate Viserys at all, even though he was cruel sometimes. Viserys had the harder situation of the two. He knew what he had to become. And attempted to get there. Dany just lucked into becoming a horselords wife and then getting three stone dragon eggs. (2)Plus, IMO in the end she'll turn out just as psycho as Viserys. Bloods blood

1. Yeah, I admit that I seen the appendix for CoK and spoiled it for myself, but was anyone surprised? When your people are deathly afraid of this woman who has good reason to hate your husband (remember Dany found her mid-rape, even if that was the only one, that would be bad, not to mention her husband's people just destroyed everything she loved), maybe, just maybe you should not but her in charge of your husband's health.

2. I don't see her going mad. I do see her becoming a sane, competent version of him. Her major obsession is with the throne and she is not to bothered that the people do not particularly want her. Jorah (I think) told her the small folk don't care who is ruling as long as they can eat and are safe. Her response to raise an army and hatch dragons.

[The Sand Snake]

1. Yeah, I admit that I seen the appendix for CoK and spoiled it for myself, but was anyone surprised? When your people are deathly afraid of this woman who has good reason to hate your husband (remember Dany found her mid-rape, even if that was the only one, that would be bad, not to mention her husband's people just destroyed everything she loved), maybe, just maybe you should not but her in charge of your husband's health.

2. I don't see her going mad. I do see her becoming a sane, competent version of him. Her major obsession is with the throne and she is not to bothered that the people do not particularly want her. Jorah (I think) told her the small folk don't care who is ruling as long as they can eat and are safe. Her response to raise an army and hatch dragons.

Yeah it was one of the moments while when reading th books I was like, umm this is a horrrrrible plan. Dany was a little too naive there.

2. And you might be right. She could become a sane version of him. I tend to think that history often repeats itself which is why I assumed that she would end up insane. Plus, I'm part of the camp that doesnt think Dany will end as queen, mostly because I believe Miri when she says that Dany cant have kids. But she could end up queen and sane. Its possible for sure

[SingleMort]

Not really. They are the enemy and their lives are forfeit to you. How is it hard to decide what to do with them? It isn't about being evil, it's about being unafraid to make evil decisions that lead to the greater good. People like Jon and Dany, I feel, don't have to make decisions like this - they win no matter what. Like with Jon and Ygritte.

You are aware every human defecates upon death, right? And does that mean every person when snuck up upon and killed by a cheap shot ceases to be great?

Well I thought it was a very well deserved shot. I thought Tywin was shrewd and ruthless but not great.

And surely the best way is to find a way so you don't have to make the evil decisions or weigh up the costs. It's easy to say you'll slaughter a ten thousand people to save a million when they're just numbers but it's another thing when your faced with a sea of corpses.

As for what Ser Jorah told Dany. The common people don't care who sits on the throne but they will care if people start slaughtering them just so their enemies can't get food.

EDIT: I hope Dany won't go crazy. Because for exactly the same reasons. I mean her brother went like that and her father and some mental disease is hereditary but Rheagar wasn't insane and nor were all the other Targaryens.

[Xenophon]

Yes, there came to a point where what Dany was receiving (at the cost to her of nothing) pushed him far over the edge, but this is where I think Dany should have firmly commanded him to go back to Pentos. If he refused, she should have had some Dothraki chain him and send him there. If she loved her brother, which she should, she would have found a way to save him, if she couldn't be bothered to teach him humility.

OK, I'm seeing what you want Dany to have done better now. I still think you're asking too much of her though. She's looked up to her brother as a semi father-figure her whole life. Given their relationship, I think it would be very hard for her to see him clearly for what he is. She probably kept hoping Viserys would improve and didn't anticipate how badly he would react to seeing her accepted by the Dothraki as their queen. I'm not saying she was reasonable, but it's understandable.

Also, I don't think it would have been possible to persuade Viserys to go back to Pentos, and having him dragged off in chains would have been an insult he would never forgive. Her options were very limited, IMO. Keep Viserys around and hope for the best, or utterly humiliate him, while also irreparably breaking whatever familial affection they still shared. I'm not sure she (or he) valued his life over his remaining dignity and freedom.

This is another reason I do not like Dany - her enemies are cardboard and idiotic, and she always wins in the end - but best save that point for another discussion.

I'm with you on that point, but as you say, that's for any of the many other threads on the subject.

[The Anti-Targ]

You're the Khaleesi, better than your poor brother who is legal heir to the throne.

He stopped being legal heir the moment King Bob took the Iron Throne by "right" of conquest. The one line from HBO Jorah Mormont delivered which taught Dany a few home truths was that of her own family history: Aegon had no legal claim to the other 6 kingdoms, he took them by conquest. Thus setting the tone for anyone else who wanted to replace the Targs on the Iron Throne.

Bob>Aegon because Bob did it without dragons.

My main beef with Dany is her sense of entitlement to the Iron Throne. It's all about her, still. Despite seeing the obligation she has taken on by becoming queen of Slaver's Bay, she's still all about her need to take back Westeros.

She's also pretty merciless. I hope there's something that leads her to have to put down one of her dragons to demonstrate that she's for the people, not just for herself and her dragons.

[Xenophon]

He stopped being legal heir the moment King Bob took the Iron Throne by "right" of conquest. The one line from HBO Jorah Mormont delivered which taught Dany a few home truths was that of her own family history: Aegon had no legal claim to the other 6 kingdoms, he took them by conquest. Thus setting the tone for anyone else who wanted to replace the Targs on the Iron Throne.

How shocking that someone with your forum name would hold such views. ;)

But according to the Targ's own view of succession, Viserys is the legal heir. Even pretenders have to follow their house laws of inheritance.

[CatelynFan]

This is another reason I do not like Dany - her enemies are cardboard and idiotic, and she always wins in the end - but best save that point for another discussion.

That's the main reason why I don't like her, and Jon as well (his enemies aren't as cardboard, but he does always win without any effort). In fact, I believe Dany and Jon might be the two most poorly-developed characters in the series.

[jlk7e]

Cruel, yes, but he could have left her to die instead of feeding her, finding shelter for her, etc.

Wow, what a great guy, he didn't abandon his baby sister to die. Isn't this pretty much the bare minimum we expect of human beings?

[Smashing Praise]

Well I thought it was a very well deserved shot. I thought Tywin was shrewd and ruthless but not great.

And surely the best way is to find a way so you don't have to make the evil decisions or weigh up the costs. It's easy to say you'll slaughter a ten thousand people to save a million when they're just numbers but it's another thing when your faced with a sea of corpses.

As for what Ser Jorah told Dany. The common people don't care who sits on the throne but they will care if people start slaughtering them just so their enemies can't get food.

EDIT: I hope Dany won't go crazy. Because for exactly the same reasons. I mean her brother went like that and her father and some mental disease is hereditary but Rheagar wasn't insane and nor were all the other Targaryens.

In what capacity is Tywin not great? He is rich, respected, feared, an excellent commander, politician, Hand of the King... the list goes on. He died as one of the greatest, most capable people Westeros has ever seen.

What you aren't understanding is that the hypothetical scenario I am referring to is that you have to save the million by sacrificing the thousand - there is no happy go lucky save everyone decisions, like the kind Jon and Dany get to make. Tywin is a man capable of such decision.

What the common people think means next to nothing in Westeros - what do you think would happen if all the small folk on the riverlands banded together with their pitchforks and torches and marched on Casterly Rock? Total slaughter. The feudal society does not lend itself to rebellions of common people, nor any sort of quality of life for them. Also, the small folk aren't just going to blame the people slaugtering them - they'll blame the lord letting it happen.

OK, I'm seeing what you want Dany to have done better now. I still think you're asking too much of her though. She's looked up to her brother as a semi father-figure her whole life. Given their relationship, I think it would be very hard for her to see him clearly for what he is. She probably kept hoping Viserys would improve and didn't anticipate how badly he would react to seeing her accepted by the Dothraki as their queen. I'm not saying she was reasonable, but it's understandable.

Also, I don't think it would have been possible to persuade Viserys to go back to Pentos, and having him dragged off in chains would have been an insult he would never forgive. Her options were very limited, IMO. Keep Viserys around and hope for the best, or utterly humiliate him, while also irreparably breaking whatever familial affection they still shared. I'm not sure she (or he) valued his life over his remaining dignity and freedom.

I'm with you on that point, but as you say, that's for any of the many other threads on the subject.

I agree that not everyone could/would save Viserys. But people put Dany on this pedestal because shes just such a great heroin - she hates slavery, treats everyone equally, commands dragons - she must be the savior of Westeros! (sarcasm) But these people forget that she let her brother die like a dog in a horrendous manner, after doing very little to prevent it happening. It just irks me how self righteous she can be.

As for it being an unforgivable slight, there's no question of that. I just think she should value the life of her brother more, especially since he's her only family and the only one who raised her.

He stopped being legal heir the moment King Bob took the Iron Throne by "right" of conquest. The one line from HBO Jorah Mormont delivered which taught Dany a few home truths was that of her own family history: Aegon had no legal claim to the other 6 kingdoms, he took them by conquest. Thus setting the tone for anyone else who wanted to replace the Targs on the Iron Throne.

Bob>Aegon because Bob did it without dragons.

My main beef with Dany is her sense of entitlement to the Iron Throne. It's all about her, still. Despite seeing the obligation she has taken on by becoming queen of Slaver's Bay, she's still all about her need to take back Westeros.

She's also pretty merciless. I hope there's something that leads her to have to put down one of her dragons to demonstrate that she's for the people, not just for herself and her dragons.

I'm pretty much going to have to refer you to Xeno on this one - I personally feel she has no claim to the throne. I am just saying this for this particular argument's sake. But still, she has spent her whole life supporting Viserys, then leaves for greener pastures when she finds her Dothraki way of life. How's that for loyalty? I'm sure there were times where it would have been easier for Viserys to leave Dany behind, but he apparently never did.

That's the main reason why I don't like her, and Jon as well (his enemies aren't as cardboard, but he does always win without any effort). In fact, I believe Dany and Jon might be the two most poorly-developed characters in the series.

I agree wholeheartedly. I hate to use the terminology, but they're both just big Mary Sues in a book full of complex, interesting people with strengths and flaws. Hell, Tyrion may be favored by the author, but at least he's an interesting and entertaining character. Luckily I both think they're heading towards their dark days where maybe they'll develop a bit, but I'm pretty tired of Jon bumbling around winning everything while Jaime is a cripple and Theon is being flayed alive.

Wow, what a great guy, he didn't abandon his baby sister to die. Isn't this pretty much the bare minimum we expect of human beings?

That's exactly the point - say what you want about him, but Vis never abandoned Dany. Dany abandons him. And in this universe, it is quite common to abandon children - Tyrion said he would have been if he were not a Lannister. Thoros and Areo were abandoned as well. Viserys, mad and foolish as he is, undeniably deserves some sort of credit for doing this.

[Noroldis]

SmashingPraise:

And with dragons, of course she could beat Tywin. Anyone could. But I can't see how she could ever muster up the political know how, hard knowledge of war and the ability to make tough, immoral decisions to win that someone like Tywin has honed his whole life. And sure, people like Tyrion and Jorah make Dany better, but Tywin doesn't need people like that - only himself. Hell, his number two (Kevan) is basically his shadow. If it isn't obvious, I think Tywin is the greatest man the realm has ever scene - but we both stray way too far from the original topic now.

I find it quite strange that you would dislike Dany for supposedly undeserved feelings of superiority, while so admiring Tywin Lannister, who is one of the greatest beneficiaries in the whole series of lucky circumstances of birth. Consider: Tywin was born the oldest son to the lord of the single richest House in the Seven Kingdoms. As such, Tywin benefited from birth from huge wealth, privilege, social status and, we can presume, superb education and training. He may have made the most the tremendous advantages his birth provided him, but to praise him for the skills he developed due to his privileged circumstances and then turn around and criticize Dany for lacking those advantages and skills through no choice of her own strikes me as quite hypocritical.

Oh, and there's another part of one of your previous post that I also take issue with:

Being "sold" is common even in Westeros - she is a high born woman, it is not her place to argue who she marries.

So a 13 year-old girl's perfectly resonable fear of being savagely raped by what she sees as a hulking savage on her wedding night and for her foreseeable future isn't enough to wring a bit of sympathy from you? No wonder you so admire Tywin. By the way, when highborn women are "sold into marriage" in Westeros, they have the advantages of common culture, of being able to communicate with their husband, and, in most cases, of being surrounded by family and friends for their wedding ceremony. At first, Dany and Drogo have no common language, and Viserys, her only kin present at her wedding, made it crystal clear he doesn't give a shit about her other than as a means of getting his army.

[Nnorb]

If Dany had been captured by the Bloody Mummers, she wouldn't have lost a hand.

If Dany had tried to hold Winterfell with 30 men, it would have worked.

She's basically a villain; a warmongering, self-righteous, hypocritical megalomaniac. And there's nothing wrong with that. I mean you can basically say the same for Tywin Lannister, and he's a great character. The problem is she's portrayed sympathetically.

[The Sand Snake]

If Dany had been captured by the Bloody Mummers, she wouldn't have lost a hand.

If Dany had tried to hold Winterfell with 30 men, it would have worked.

She's basically a villain; a warmongering, self-righteous, hypocritical megalomaniac. And there's nothing wrong with that. I mean you can basically say the same for Tywin Lannister, and he's a great character. The problem is she's portrayed sympathetically.

this is the basis for why everyone who dislikes Dany dislikes her. Somehow, someway it would have worked out for Dany. It always does.

[Mike]

I'm saying it is easier to be fearless when you have thousands of warriors. That cannot be denied. As for Viserys and Illyrio, if someone gives me a lottery ticket because they think it will bring them better luck, and I win a million dollars, should I not be thankful to them regardless? We can't know that if Dany had sat down with Vis and truly tried to help him in a way that wouldn't offend him it would have helped. However, as I said before, she did have the power to send him back to Pentos at any time, but she never did. She did not care enough for her brother to realize what was happening to him over time.

Danaerys isn't fearless. She's just strong enough to overcome that fear. And that ability did not come because she had thousands of warriors. You're suggesting that the power of her position was the impetus for her change, but her change started before she began to utilize or maybe even realize the power that her position granted her.

If those same guys gave you to a big man to get slammed in the butt every night against your will, and you knew that those guys did that for their own personal gain, but after a while you came to love the guy that was slamming you in the butt, would you still thank them?

She could have had him dragged off, and then what? How does Viserys react? Meekly? I doubt it. He's insane. He would command Illyrio to buy him an army, so he could challenge Danaerys for usurping his place as the rightful Targaryen ruler. Of course Illyrio would realize that the power lay with Danaerys now and would either have Viserys thrown in a cell or killed outright. There is no scenario where Viserys doesn't end up dead or in a cell.

[Smashing Praise]

SmashingPraise:

I find it quite strange that you would dislike Dany for supposedly undeserved feelings of superiority, while so admiring Tywin Lannister, who is one of the greatest beneficiaries in the whole series of lucky circumstances of birth. Consider: Tywin was born the oldest son to the lord of the single richest House in the Seven Kingdoms. As such, Tywin benefited from birth from huge wealth, privilege, social status and, we can presume, superb education and training. He may have made the most the tremendous advantages his birth provided him, but to praise him for the skills he developed due to his privileged circumstances and then turn around and criticize Dany for lacking those advantages and skills through no choice of her own strikes me as quite hypocritical.

Oh, and there's another part of one of your previous post that I also take issue with:

So a 13 year-old girl's perfectly resonable fear of being savagely raped by what she sees as a hulking savage on her wedding night and for her foreseeable future isn't enough to wring a bit of sympathy from you? No wonder you so admire Tywin. By the way, when highborn women are "sold into marriage" in Westeros, they have the advantages of common culture, of being able to communicate with their husband, and, in most cases, of being surrounded by family and friends for their wedding ceremony. At first, Dany and Drogo have no common language, and Viserys, her only kin present at her wedding, made it crystal clear he doesn't give a shit about her other than as a means of getting his army.

Tywin receives what every other high born first son receives - this I do not dispute. However rich his family is, he family's reputation was in disrepair due to his father. The reason Tywin did not turn out like his father or any other mediocre lord is that he is an amazing man. Unlike any other character in these books, he has accomplished nigh everything he has ever wanted, turned his family around, and put his grandson on the throne and kept him there. Who else has accomplished so much? He was given lands and armies, but he was not given everything. Dany receives much better than Tywin can ever hope for - priceless war machines and enemies who are incompetent.

Yes, Dany's circumstances are a bit worse, but is it so much worse than Lysa marrying a stinky old man she hates and will continue to until she kills him? Or Lolys Stokeworth having to marry a lowborn, morally bankrupt sellsword who will only use her for his own gain? This is the culture - it sucks for Dany because she's alone and marrying a Dothraki, but it is still along the lines as what is expected of her. For that, I can find very little sympathy. Marriage in this world is what it is.

If Dany had been captured by the Bloody Mummers, she wouldn't have lost a hand.

If Dany had tried to hold Winterfell with 30 men, it would have worked.

She's basically a villain; a warmongering, self-righteous, hypocritical megalomaniac. And there's nothing wrong with that. I mean you can basically say the same for Tywin Lannister, and he's a great character. The problem is she's portrayed sympathetically.

This. A thousand times this. The only thing I find wrong with it is that Jaime, Tywin, and Theon have real, interesting enemies to face, and when they are inevitably defeated and the next chapter is Dany winning battles against her practically nameless, stereotypical villains, I want to scream.

Danaerys isn't fearless. She's just strong enough to overcome that fear. And that ability did not come because she had thousands of warriors. You're suggesting that the power of her position was the impetus for her change, but her change started before she began to utilize or maybe even realize the power that her position granted her.

If those same guys gave you to a big man to get slammed in the butt every night against your will, and you knew that those guys did that for their own personal gain, but after a while you came to love the guy that was slamming you in the butt, would you still thank them?

She could have had him dragged off, and then what? How does Viserys react? Meekly? I doubt it. He's insane. He would command Illyrio to buy him an army, so he could challenge Danaerys for usurping his place as the rightful Targaryen ruler. Of course Illyrio would realize that the power lay with Danaerys now and would either have Viserys thrown in a cell or killed outright. There is no scenario where Viserys doesn't end up dead or in a cell.

What I am getting at is that what if Dany started becoming brave years ago, and Viserys slapped her down. Would she still be brave in a hopeless situation? She has always had Dothraki/Unsullied/Dragons to support her - it is easy to be brave when you know you can put up a fight.

Call me crazy, but I would. They enabled me to happiness/power/whatever, no matter what their intentions were.

Viserys wouldn't forget the slight, but unlike Dany, Illyrio knows how to deal with people. He would have found a way to calm him, of that I'm sure. Dany has no power if her dragons aren't born, and who knows if that would have still happened had Viserys been saved? Butterfly effect and whatnot. Regardless, Viserys is valuable to people (like Doran Martell.) Illyrio would do his best to keep him happy while Dany traipsed around having adventures until their promised army was ready.

[Mike]

What I am getting at is that what if Dany started becoming brave years ago, and Viserys slapped her down. Would she still be brave in a hopeless situation? She has always had Dothraki/Unsullied/Dragons to support her - it is easy to be brave when you know you can put up a fight.

Call me crazy, but I would. They enabled me to happiness/power/whatever, no matter what their intentions were.

Viserys wouldn't forget the slight, but unlike Dany, Illyrio knows how to deal with people. He would have found a way to calm him, of that I'm sure. Dany has no power if her dragons aren't born, and who knows if that would have still happened had Viserys been saved? Butterfly effect and whatnot. Regardless, Viserys is valuable to people (like Doran Martell.) Illyrio would do his best to keep him happy while Dany traipsed around having adventures until their promised army was ready.

Against the khal she had none of that. The khal was the one who frightened her. He was the one that hurt her every night, his Dothraki custom that put her on a horse for hours every day ripping the skin off her ass, and she was going to kill herself. At that point she was stil weak, still frightened, but then she bucked up, fought through it, and made something good out of something that was, at the time, a bad situation.

You're crazy. Or really enlightened. Are you one of those Buddhists that can project your essence over the astral plane?

Viserys wouldn't forget the slight? He's insane. He feels threatened when his sister's slave misrepresents her words into a command. And he's not subtle, nor patient. It doesn't seem likely that Illyrio would be able to restrain him with words. Especially after his sister had him dragged back to Pentos against his will. Don't you think that someone as insecure as Viserys would see that as an attempt by his sister to usurp his place?

Someone like Doran isn't going to fight for Viserys all by himself. He made the marriage pact in secret, but he didn't declare for Viserys, he didn't rally his bannermen, he didn't even contact him. It was a plan, and it seemed contingent on the Targaryens coming back in force. Which Viserys could not do. Only Danaerys could influence the khal that way, and only because Robert fucked up and put a price on her head.

[Toe]

Tywin is greatly overrated. He had the richest land in Westeros to start with. Miserable father, all of his children are psychological wrecks. Missed or ignored the incest which could have been discovered anytime and would have wiped out his family when Robert found out. Only plot armor saved him... His preferred heir become a Kingsguard which killed that hope. Also a failure as military leader, his commanders repeatedly defeated, himself would have walked into a military trap and destroyed if not the plot armor saved him by Robb's failure to communicate his plan Edmure and Tyrion/LF on fixing an alliance with the Tyrrels...

[Nnorb]

This. A thousand times this. The only thing I find wrong with it is that Jaime, Tywin, and Theon have real, interesting enemies to face, and when they are inevitably defeated and the next chapter is Dany winning battles against her practically nameless, stereotypical villains, I want to scream

Credit where it's due, her storyline in AGOT was pretty good.

Frightened young girl.

-> Proud queen.

-> Brought low by arrogance and cupidity. (Mirri Maz Dur, an excellent antagonist)

-> Ends with a shocking twist.

After that everything declined rapidly.

Tywin is greatly overrated. Miserably father, all of his children are psychological wrecks. Missed or ignored the incest which could have been discovered anytime and would have wiped out his family when Robert found out. Only plot armor saved him...

I don't think you understand the concept of Plot Armour.

[Toe]

I don't think you understand the concept of Plot Armour.

Really? Regardless, Tywin is likely the most overrated character in the series... Repeatedly saved from his mistakes by the work of others and dumb luck...

[Kosciuszko]

Is the OP Harry Lloyd?

I really hope so. Because Harry Lloyd did such a wonderfully magnificent job, him posting on the forums would be pretty awesome.

[Smashing Praise]

Against the khal she had none of that. The khal was the one who frightened her. He was the one that hurt her every night, his Dothraki custom that put her on a horse for hours every day ripping the skin off her ass, and she was going to kill herself. At that point she was stil weak, still frightened, but then she bucked up, fought through it, and made something good out of something that was, at the time, a bad situation.

You're crazy. Or really enlightened. Are you one of those Buddhists that can project your essence over the astral plane?

Viserys wouldn't forget the slight? He's insane. He feels threatened when his sister's slave misrepresents her words into a command. And he's not subtle, nor patient. It doesn't seem likely that Illyrio would be able to restrain him with words. Especially after his sister had him dragged back to Pentos against his will. Don't you think that someone as insecure as Viserys would see that as an attempt by his sister to usurp his place?

Someone like Doran isn't going to fight for Viserys all by himself. He made the marriage pact in secret, but he didn't declare for Viserys, he didn't rally his bannermen, he didn't even contact him. It was a plan, and it seemed contingent on the Targaryens coming back in force. Which Viserys could not do. Only Danaerys could influence the khal that way, and only because Robert fucked up and put a price on her head.

I am not saying Dany was never/isn't brave, I'm just saying everything is a bit circumstantial. Even the Khal, who was scary at first, is really just a boogey man - it doesn't take her long to realize he has no intention of hurting her, he just wants a wife. It is easy to be less scared when you've looked under the bed. I don't think courage and realizing there is nothing to be afraid of are the same thing. Once she gave some time to realize she could acclimate to the Dothraki way, there was no more bravery needed.

I suppose I am some sort of mix of grateful and enlightened, but Dany has Illyrio and a (a much smaller bit) Viserys to thank for every single thing she has right now, regardless of their intentions.

I never said Dany sending him their would fix everything, I said it was worth a try. Who knows, maybe finally being balked at like that would put him in his place. Maybe he'd throw a tantrum for a week and return to his normal self. I'm just saying Dany should have taken better care of her brother, who desperately needs her help.

I didn't say Viserys was the sole puzzle piece needed to complete Doran's plans. I just said he is valuable.

Tywin is greatly overrated. He had the richest land in Westeros to start with. Miserable father, all of his children are psychological wrecks. Missed or ignored the incest which could have been discovered anytime and would have wiped out his family when Robert found out. Only plot armor saved him... His preferred heir become a Kingsguard which killed that hope. Also a failure as military leader, his commanders repeatedly defeated, himself would have walked into a military trap and destroyed if not the plot armor saved him by Robb's failure to communicate his plan Edmure and Tyrion/LF on fixing an alliance with the Tyrrels...

What person in existence can claim to have accomplished as much as Tywin? Over rated? He won the war. He finished Robert's Rebellion. He killed Robb Stark without actually meeting him in battle. What more can you expect of the man? He'd be ruling Westeros by proxy if it wasn't for Tyrion (who has true plot armor.) I don't quite understand your definition of plot armor - to me, plot armor is why a highborn, spoiled nine year old girl has traveled the world, getting into misadventures with thugs, rapists and murders and remains completely unscathed. Or Jon Snow refusing to kill a wildling girl who should have informed her clan of the NW's attack, but instead helped him for no logical reason. Tywin is able to take advantage of how poor his opponents are at politics, yes, but that doesn't mean he's simply stumbled into all his glory.

Credit where it's due, her storyline in AGOT was pretty good.

Frightened young girl.

-> Proud queen.

-> Brought low by arrogance and cupidity. (Mirri Maz Dur, an excellent antagonist)

-> Ends with a shocking twist.

After that everything declined rapidly.

The funny thing is, I don't even mind her chapters. They can be pretty entertaining, and Jorah is one of my favorite characters. Dany banishing him is one of the top reasons I dislike her. The chapters just aren't on quality with much of the book. It reads like a stereotypical "strong woman beats the bad boys at their own game" adventure, which really annoys me. I love Cersei as a character; she's a woman who has had to strive for every single thing she wants, and openly admits things would be easier for her if she were a man. Does she get dragons? Are her opponents complete idiots falling to simple trickery? No, and when she finally screws up too much, she's landed in a cell. Dany is too flat, too stereotypical, and reeks of a bit too much grrl power to keep my interest.