The quote that sums up how bad Dany is

[CatelynFan]

I don't see Dany as an entirely positive character.

I hope she's not. I hope that she becomes a lot darker and more ruthless in the upcoming books, because if she manages to be an all-conquering warrior queen AND a friend to the smallfolk AND a just and fair ruler AND an honorable woman AND a master at the Game of Thrones AND the savior of the world AND kind to children and puppies...well, I think I might vomit. She would be a Mary-Sue unmatched anywhere.

I actually liked her better when she stood by and let her brother die, because her reaction was human. After all, Viserys had just threatened to cut her unborn child out of her womb...if that happened to me, if my brother did that to me, I sure wouldn't feel very forgiving. Moreover, it showed how she was becoming stronger and harder--more of a Dothraki, if you will.

[The Sand Snake]

You know, someone in the series has to succeed at some point. Everyone can't end up dead at the end of the books. Are you complaining that everything has worked out for Jaime, since he manages to piss everyone off, loses a hand, and is still in power? Look at Tyrion, he kills Tywin and gets off scott free! Lets not even get started on the Gary Sue Gregor, who even gets poisoned by the Red Viper and is just turned into an even more super warrior! It is ridiculous how these guys are just given everything!!

It is true, Dany is still alive and this seems to really bother some people. However, as people have mentioned in this and many other threads, plenty of bad things happened to her.

1) Raised by Viserys.

2) Sold into slavery, raped night after night, forced to ride after being raped

3) Finally falls in love with husband and has a child, but then both are killed.

4) Takes her small force across the waste, losing many of her people, including Doreah, probably her only true friend at this point.

5) Tries to overthrow the slaver cities, in many ways succeeds but also has quite a few failures that affect her profoundly. She is clearly torn apart by what is going on in Astapor, which is why she decides to stay in Mereen and not just leave it.

6) Finds out her most trusted advisor, the only one she truly trusted at all, was betraying her the entire time.

2. Your kidding me. We've been over this in other threads. It was NOT rape. He didnt rape her. He waited until she wanted to have sex before he actually got on with it that night.

3. It was HER fault that her husband and child got killed. And then ohhhh she magically births 3 Dragons. Who woulda guessed

4. People die. I dont think this is that tragic. Doesnt seem like she weeps after these people months or weeks in the future. Khalessis are taught that if they cannot right then they die. Its how it is.

5. Well congrats on Dany to overthrowing a slave society and making a new one after she leaves it. I dont see what good she really did here.

6. And has also saved her life a ton of times. His betraying her did no harm to her. He didnt kill her, even though he could have and didnt let anyone else kill her.

And as for what you mention with Jaime and Tyrion, thats just ignorance. Jaime lost a hand, basically taking away his entire life. And Tyrion's whole life has been a lie and disgusting treatment by his whole family and the ENTIRE realm. He's a joke. I would never compare "Dany Stormborn, rightful ruler of the seven kingdoms, blood of the Dragon, Dragonmother, came out of the womb walking" to Tyrion

[Xenophon]

I hope she's not. I hope that she becomes a lot darker and more ruthless in the upcoming books, because if she manages to be an all-conquering warrior queen AND a friend to the smallfolk AND a just and fair ruler AND an honorable woman AND a master at the Game of Thrones AND the savior of the world AND kind to children and puppies...well, I think I might vomit. She would be a Mary-Sue unmatched anywhere.

Don't forget astoundingly beautiful, with unusual hair and eye color. ;)

[CatelynFan]

Don't forget astoundingly beautiful, with unusual hair and eye color.

No. That would make it all worse. :stillsick:

[jlk7e]

2. Your kidding me. We've been over this in other threads. It was NOT rape. He didnt rape her. He waited until she wanted to have sex before he actually got on with it that night.

Maybe the first time wasn't rape. All the times after that, up until the time she took charge, were pretty clearly rape.

[jlk7e]

And as for what you mention with Jaime and Tyrion, thats just ignorance. Jaime lost a hand, basically taking away his entire life.

Yeah, and Dany can't ever have children. This is a pure troll.

"Mary Sue," so far as I can tell, seems to have become a synonym for "sympathetic character." Example: "God, Jane Eyre is such a Mary Sue." I don't think the concept of a Mary Sue works at all or makes any sense outside of the context of fan fiction.

[The Sand Snake]

You dont know that she cant have children I'm pretty sure. Miri just said that she can't. I havent read the spoilers from ADWD so I dont know. Maybe it's stated in there that she can.

Also I still do not think agree that it was rape. She says that the tears on her face were from pain. Probably because she had only lost her virginity recently, was 14, and had been riding all day. I dont consider that rape I guess

[Prince Rhaegar Targaryen]

2. Your kidding me. We've been over this in other threads. It was NOT rape. He didnt rape her. He waited until she wanted to have sex before he actually got on with it that night.

And Dany had great fun all the following nights, right....

3. It was HER fault that her husband and child got killed. And then ohhhh she magically births 3 Dragons. Who woulda guessed

Bad things happen to Dany. Is it sometimes her own fault? Yes, of course, precisely because she's not perfect. Are the bad things less bad because of that? I don't think so, more like the other way round... and yes, there are dragons in the story. There are also some unknown icy snow beeings and a 700 feet high wall of ice. That's called fantasy.

And as for what you mention with Jaime and Tyrion, thats just ignorance. Jaime lost a hand, basically taking away his entire life.

Okay, so Jaime Goldenhand losing his swordhand is somehow worse than losing your child, husband and ability to bear children in the same night, is worse than getting repeatedly raped and sold into slavery? Everybody their own opinion, I guess.

And Tyrion's whole life has been a lie and disgusting treatment by his whole family and the ENTIRE realm. He's a joke. I would never compare "Dany Stormborn, rightful ruler of the seven kingdoms, blood of the Dragon, Dragonmother, came out of the womb walking" to Tyrion

"Tyrion, Son of Tywin, of House Lannister of the Rock" has a nice ring, too. His family's treatment of him is still the better bargain when compared to Dany's family's treatment of her, that is Viserys...

[Prince Rhaegar Targaryen]

Also I still do not think agree that it was rape. She says that the tears on her face were from pain. Probably because she had only lost her virginity recently, was 14, and had been riding all day. I dont consider that rape I guess

I really don't want to comment on that. Are you serious?

[FatCatOberyn]

Here’s the problem with Dany, distilled into a single sentence: Anyone who dislikes her is a Bad Guy.

Let’s count them off.

Robert Baratheon: Indeed, disliking Dany is a crime of such self-evident magnitude that he recants on his deathbed.

The Small Council (Renly, Pycelle, Varys, Littlefinger): They range from arrogant nitwit to the physical incarnation of evil. Renly and Pycelle do have redeeming streaks of grey, but are still active antagonists in the series.

Viserys Targaryen: “I would let all 40,000 of them fuck you, and their horses, if it got me what I want.” The blatantly obvious example.

Mirri Maz Dur: She basically Saves The World from ridiculous Dothraki shenanigans, and somehow ends up being the villain. That’ll teach you not to defy the Mary Sue!

From there it just gets silly.

Jalabar Zho is a pathetic effeminate prick for not bowing to the Sue’s every whim.

Pyat Pree and the warlocks are pants-on-head retarded. Evil, immortal, soul-sucking freaks who attack our virtuous heroine. I personally couldn’t stop laughing.

The Slavers of Astapor take children and brutally morph them into inhuman eunuch killing machines. Of course they are personally repugnant, and of course they oppose Dany.

Then there’s those slavers she has a battle with, who don’t even get a name. Not to worry! The Titan’s Bastard proxies for them, and he’s super duper evil.

Finally we end up with Mereen, who line their roads with crucified slaves. Why? BECAUSE THEY’RE EVIL. HOLD STILL WHILE I BEAT YOU OVER THE HEAD WITH THE EVIL STICK.

Seriously, it happens Every. Single. Time. If a character or group expresses a negative opinion of Dany, the narrative may as well just hang great pink big neon signs off them, stating their irredeemable villainy. I’m not sure if it’s just a product of the darkness that so obviously infuses their souls, that makes them find our heroine so offensive. Or maybe the mere act of disliking a sue is, in and of itself, morally bankrupt?

I guess we’ll never know.

If I could, I'd raise you a statue.

Dany and Jon are stains on the perfection of ASoIaF. Only Jon is more redeemable because it's not so hard to stand out in what the NW has become. I can't believe I actually disliked Mirri Maz Dur when I first read the book. I guess it took me three books filled with Dany to finally realise what a lousy character she is.

If she survives, and, god forbid, actually gets the throne, I'm going to be very, very disappointed in the series.

Euron and Victarion, hear me out, you are humanity's last obvious saviors. So please, marry the Sue or not, but steal or kill her dragons and chop her head off :)

And PS, when you say Jalabar Xho, I suppose you really mean Xaro Xohan Daxos.

[The Sand Snake]

If I could, I'd raise you a statue.

Dany and Jon are stains on the perfection of ASoIaF. Only Jon is more redeemable because it's not so hard to stand out in what the NW has become. I can't believe I actually disliked Mirri Maz Dur when I first read the book. I guess it took me three books filled with Dany to finally realise what a lousy character she is.

If she survives, and, god forbid, actually gets the throne, I'm going to be very, very disappointed in the series.

Euron and Victarion, hear me out, you are humanity's last obvious saviors. So please, marry the Sue or not, but steal or kill her dragons and chop her head off :)

And PS, when you say Jalabar Xho, I suppose you really mean Xaro Xohan Daxos.

The statue should be built right away. These are the main reasons that people hate Dany. Every single thing in life ends up working out for the better for her. If she ends up on a throne, Ill cry myself to sleep.

And yes PRT,

Thats what I think. Might be wrong but I'm pretty sure thats my opinion. I'm sure that lots of girls in Westeros cry the first few times. We just dont get a POV from them. And I just really find it hard to believe that he was mercilessly raping Dany and then in the same chapter, like 5 pages later, when he comes in shes throws herself at him. I just dont see that turnaround being realistic if she was being raped every night.

[Abrantes]

I am not quite sure you read my post correctly. The horrific part is that Dany proclaims all these things when she herself exhibited them in spades. Her wedding situation is not ideal, but it is what most women of Westeros go through. You do not choose your husband, you do not choose if you want to sleep with him. She has every right to be scared, but I find it appalling that she categorizes Viserys as scared when she has been most of her life. Smack her around? She could flee into the night, kill him in his sleep, any number of things. She has not the courage or mettle to do such things. She does act high and mighty, just as Viserys does. However, does it make her correct to just because she has an army following her? One that soon deserts her when her husband dies? She is just as foolish as Viserys in this respect. As I said before, I used whore facetiously to mock Dothraki culture, not Dany. Dany is not a whore. And Viserys, a madman who drunk, said that. He needs help. Dany never gave it to him. She should have tried to save him and send him to Pentos.

There, those are all facts. What am I ignoring?

What you are ignoring is that people grow. Daenerys was able to overcome what could rightfully be classified as weakness or fear, becoming a true khaleesi in no small part due to her decisions and strength of character. Despite being older, Viserys was an emotionally stunted sod and showed no comparable growth. Using the Daenerys we see early in A Game of Thrones as a basis for comparison is pointless, for when she said the quote you mention in the original post, she's no longer that person.

[Toe]

Toe - but, isn't it arrogant to think that she and her tiny nation of dothraki can somehow remake a culture thousands of years old, that is supported by countless other cities and states?

Yes, it is. The fate of the first city she "freed" points out that she seriously overestimates her will vs the status quo.

Like Catlynfan - I'm not making her out to be a monster, or a worse person than, say, Tywin, I'm saying I don't like an aspect of her character that I see.

By all means, let us never change ancient cultures and customs. Abolishing slavery in our world was obviously a mistake as was the US constitution. How arrogant these new ideas are! Stupid to think that one can change anything with the world!

What is the "aspect" that you dislike? That she is "lucky"? So are all the high nobility who are born to riches, land, and personal armies from birth.

That she is too perfect? Not sure how this goes with her making mistakes...

[Nukelavee]

Wow, you must be part of the Queensguard, considering how personally you take my calling her arrogant.

Yeah, it IS arrogant to assume that one woman, with 100 followers, can personally change an entire continents customs simply by setting some fop's hair on fire. It IS arrogant, as well as foolish and naive, to assume you can issue a decree, haul ass to the next city, and do it again, and have it stick at city One.

Martin Luther King didn't think he alone could overturn society's failings in a single country that was vastly more enlightened than what Dany faced, and he certainly didn't think a wave of his hand could do it.

So, again, her aims were fine and noble - but it was arrogant to think she could actually achieve it AND continue on her way to Westeros to her throne.

Prince (now known as PRT), you make a little too much of what Dany suffered compared to others. All that Jaimie was, was in that hand. His skill was what he was. Dany? She is the last Targ, she has yet to lose that, and, she lost Drogo and the kid thru her own acts, unlike Jaimie, really.

People forget, as nasty as he was, Viserys was who enabled Dany to have any chance at all - his obsession, his life was spent on trying to regain THEIR place; he ended up so damaged, because it all fell on him. Was it fun or easy for Dany? No, it wasn't, but neither was it her fighting for every day to survive and find a way back to KL.

As for being rpeatedly raped? That's totally a matter of conjecture. If Dany ever is written as saying it was rape, it was.

[The Sand Snake]

Wow, you must be part of the Queensguard, considering how personally you take my calling her arrogant.

Yeah, it IS arrogant to assume that one woman, with 100 followers, can personally change an entire continents customs simply by setting some fop's hair on fire. It IS arrogant, as well as foolish and naive, to assume you can issue a decree, haul ass to the next city, and do it again, and have it stick at city One.

Martin Luther King didn't think he alone could overturn society's failings in a single country that was vastly more enlightened than what Dany faced, and he certainly didn't think a wave of his hand could do it.

So, again, her aims were fine and noble - but it was arrogant to think she could actually achieve it AND continue on her way to Westeros to her throne.

Prince (now known as PRT), you make a little too much of what Dany suffered compared to others. All that Jaimie was, was in that hand. His skill was what he was. Dany? She is the last Targ, she has yet to lose that, and, she lost Drogo and the kid thru her own acts, unlike Jaimie, really.

People forget, as nasty as he was, Viserys was who enabled Dany to have any chance at all - his obsession, his life was spent on trying to regain THEIR place; he ended up so damaged, because it all fell on him. Was it fun or easy for Dany? No, it wasn't, but neither was it her fighting for every day to survive and find a way back to KL.

As for being rpeatedly raped? That's totally a matter of conjecture. If Dany ever is written as saying it was rape, it was.

:agree:

[iamthedave]

How is this more lucky that Ned, Robb, Mace, Tywin, Roberts, and so on, inheriting vast lands, incomes, and personal armies from birth?

Let us say that Dany'c current position is entirely due to luck. That is no different than the luck of all the other high nobility in Westeros.

However, unlike the the Westeros high nobility gaining this automatically from birth, Dany had to fight for this. She realized that there was a possibility that the eggs would hatch with the right sacrifice so this was not luck. She had the skill and charisma necessary for organizing and inspiring many others. She had herself made many good decisions. Now, through both luck and skill, she is ruler. That is less lucky than the high mobility being given this from birth...

I'm not saying they weren't lucky being born into power. I'm contesting the idea that Dany is somehow less lucky.

What fight did Dany go through to gain her initial power base? Last I checked she was married and... um... rode around on a nice horsie a lot? Got pregnant? Can't see much of a fight here. Having just re-read the books, that entire span of her life comes down to 'I want this ergo it's going to happen, or else I'll tell Drogo on you'.

Seriously. That's how it goes. Anytime she does something that people object to she just says do it or I'll sic my husband on you.

After Drogo dies, sure she has to put in her work. But didn't Tywin have to put in his work to build house Lannister up after Tytos messed things up?

I don't see the argument that says Dany somehow had to claw and fight for everything she has when she's an entirely passive character for a long part of her arc and is quite literally handed everything she gets. She may not be handed lands, power, and people in the same way as Tywin, but the result is identical. She gets it without any fight whatsoever. Does it cost her heartache? Yes. That's not the same as 'fighting' for it though.

[iamthedave]

Maybe the first time wasn't rape. All the times after that, up until the time she took charge, were pretty clearly rape.

Well, I can tell you haven't read the books recently.

Yes there's a period where he 'takes her every night' and she's obviously not enjoying it, but there's equally times where she does enjoy it, looks forward to it, and in fact takes charge at one point, plants him on his back and rides him.

I love how people keep saying 'oh she was raped how horrible', when Dany/Drogo is one of the only loving relationships in the entire series and Dany herself remembers him fondly.

How me a single line in the text post Drogo's death where Dany remembers him as some bestial, brutal rapist having his way with her.

And this in a book where ACTUAL rape happens, where women are taken, abused, beaten and murdered by your Gregors and your Mummers. To be honest I find it almost offensive. Remember Pretty Pia, who is shown the decapitated head of one of the men who raped her 'hunnerds and hunnerds of times' and she smiles at it. Pretty Pia who started out a fairly innocent, giggly sort.

Do you think Dany would 'smile' if shown the decapitated head of Drogo?

Do you think Pretty Pia goes to bed comparing every man she sees to her rapist and thinking they're inferior?

Please leave this argument alone. It's threadbare.

[Salander]

Jaime lost a hand, basically taking away his entire life.

He deserves to lose more than his hand. I hope he loses his life. I like Jaime, but after what he did to Bran he's going to have to lose more than a hand to be in any way redeemed. (That or go to the wall and serve penance for the rest of his days).

As for Dany: she's one of my favourite characters and I find it difficult to comprehend that people would find Viserys a sympathetic character at all. Viserys sold Dany for an army and she tried to save his life more than a few times in his um, er, cross-cultural mishaps with the Dothraki. After he threatened her life and that of her child, she didn't owe him anything any more. (Well that's my reading of it anyway).

[mcb]

3. It was HER fault that her husband and child got killed.

Yeah. And that makes it less painful? (Also, consider letting Mirri share at least some credit. She deserves it.)

[Salander]

Yeah. And that makes it less painful? (Also, consider letting Mirri share at least some credit. She deserves it.)

I agree. How was it Dany's fault? Mirri was pretty economical with the truth and took revenge on Dany through her vulnerability, and desperation to save KD. I think it's pretty harsh to blame Dany. There was no intention or motivation by Dany to lose her husband and/or child. Mirri, however, had plenty.