The quote that sums up how bad Dany is

[Toe]

It's after the end of AGOT when Dani's story becomes really grating for me. The deal for the Unsullied is by far the most ridiculous major plot element in the series. The stupidity of the Astapori slavers is completely ridiculous and implausible. They gave away all of the Unsullied for a dragon who was far from fully grown yet and who they had no way to control - they didn't ask Dani how to control him. They really should've realised that this way they were leaving themselves defenceless not only to Dani's takeover of the city, but to other potential invaders (Dothraki, etc), even if Dani had left with the Unsullied and left Drogon to the slavers.

I agree that that was a poorly written exchange in the series. GRRM should have handled this one better. But then again, in real life people are regularly fooled by charlatans and frauds, losing much or all of their possessions due to their own greed and personal charisma of the con man. Seems too stupid to be true but happens regularly.

[Toe]

But after that, there's nothing that really touches her in any personal way. Doreah goes pretty much unmourned after her "death scene" for example. She is "betrayed" by Jorah, but he never actually did anything that directly harmed her or her plans in any way. Compared to all the other characters in the serieswho lose so much , it does seem as if she is extremely lucky (even Jon, her male counterpart of sorts, loses a lot more than her).

The same could be said, only to a much greater degree, for Bronn or LF. Never loses anything, always winning, always gaining, never have to experience any personal loss.

Where are the whiners complaining about them? :whip:

An example of what she gains "for free" would be the 3 Ships she is given in Qarth at the end of Clash. She has spent quite a while in Qarth, but when she tries to leave it, she hasn't managed to gain anything other than some prophecies (and after the Stallion who Mounts the World, who knows how faithful those are anyway ?), no ships, no army, no gold, yet she still manages to get 3 boats to carry her wherever she wants because Illyrio, who we haven't heard from in more than a thousand pages, sent them to her, along with two of the finest living warriors in Westeros/Essos. What did she do to get all of that ? And this is just the beginning, it gets much worse in Storm, where she basically steals about 10,000 men upon a wild gamble that would never have paid off against the likes of Tywin Lannister or even Ned Stark.

Not worse than Tywin being saved from a military and political catastrophe by Edmure/Robb's mistake regarding orders, Robb's mistake regarding marriages, Tyrion/LF creating an alliance with the Tyrrels on their own initiative, and the Freys sending the proposal about the RW. Tywin gained all this without lifting a finger.

Where are the whiners complaining about Tywin's unfair luck? :whip:

[Toe]

She's a 14 year old girl yet constantly outsmarts much older and more experienced opponents.

Say she has an IQ of 200. The she will be smarter than almost all adults despite being somewhat younger.

No, she does not constantly outsmart. She makes many mistakes.

[SingleMort]

Say she has an IQ of 200. The she will be smarter than almost all adults despite being somewhat younger.

No, she does not constantly outsmart. She makes many mistakes.

Also in the case of the slave cities I don't see them as being that much more experienced. I mean the cities had not been attacked before because the Dothraki used them to sell the slaves they had taken in other raids and if a horde did try to attack they would pay them off.

[Toe]

The Yunkai'i sellswords being tricked into getting drunk? Absolutely pathetic. Mereen was the only city whose defenders displayed a reasonable amount of intelligence.

I will repeat my earlier summary:

In the first battle for Yunkai :fencing:

*Deceived regarding the time frame of negotiations causing the enemy to be off guard

*Got one sellsword company drunk

*Bribed/threatened the other to switch sides

*Used many campfires to get a surprise

*Disposed of her troops wisely. Dothraki for removing scouts and for fear value against slave soldiers. Unsullen on flanks.

In the second battle for Meereen :fencing:

*Solved the problem with absent wood by breaking up the ships for siege engines

*Set fire to hulks in the harbor to draw attention

*Used the above distractions. Yes, Plumm stated that the sewers existed. But it was Dany who realized that, while this entry was unsuited for her regular troops, the sewers could be used by a small group while the defenders were distracted in order to free the slaves and create an inside rebellion.

I think the basic problem may be this: Dany is so smart that many of her victories seem to easy. :wideeyed: Some may be more impressed by winning bloodily by a narrow margin than by being so smart that the actual battle itself becomes a walk-over. :dunce:

[Evamitchelle]

The same could be said, only to a much greater degree, for Bronn or LF. Never loses anything, always winning, always gaining, never have to experience any personal loss.

Where are the whiners complaining about them?

For starters, Bronn and Littlefinger aren't POV characters, so it's really not the same situation. We don't know what goes through their heads for example, like we do with Dany. They're also a lot let present. It's easier to ignore a minor character that annoys you than a character which has a good dozen chapters throughout three novels and whoe thoughts are completely open to us. Besides, the situation is entirely different. The problem isn't so much that Dany is always winning, the problem is the way in which she's winning, without ever losing anything important (beyond GoT that is), and without even having to tarnish her reputation one bit. On the contrary, she's called the Mother of Slaves and the Mother of Dragons, and everybody basically loves her. Bronn and LF win because they're not afraid to make harsh/cruel decisions. Not the same situation at all IMO. And no one loves LF or Bronn like Dany is loved by those 10,000 slaves she freed. The fact that Dany can still win easily while not having to make a single hard choice that would tarnish her reputation is what is unrealistic.

Not worse than Tywin being saved from a military and political catastrophe by Edmure/Robb's mistake regarding orders, Robb's mistake regarding marriages, Tyrion/LF creating an alliance with the Tyrrels on their own initiative, and the Freys sending the proposal about the RW. Tywin gained all this without lifting a finger. Where are the whiners complaining about Tywin's unfair luck?

Tywin proved himself competent well before The War of the Five Kings. Some of Tywin's "luck" comes from his past experience : like the Freys proposing the RW. If Tywin was a commander as green as Dany, they probably wouldn't have made the suggestion. SO luck may simply stem from experience. Besides, no one loves or even likes Tywin. Dany is worshiped, even though she brings war and death every where she goes. Besides, Tywin is dead and his house in grave peril. I don't see him faring so well compared to her.

And there's no need to call me a "whiner" just because I don't happen to like a character you apparently love.

[Smashing Praise]

OP here. I do not have the time to respond personally to everything directed at me at the moment, but I'd figure I'd thrown in some quick opinions.

To begin, I'm extremely happy to see people banding together to argue against Dany, not for hating her, but for what she represents to the series. This will always be my biggest my biggest complaint with people like Dany and Jon. As for the criticisms about people like LF, Bronn and Varys who "never lose," the love for them is simple: they are charming characters. Dany is far from that - which is what this thread was originally about. Those aforementioned characters also have logical explanations to why they are as skilled as they are- they aren't uneducated 14 year old girls. Also, people calling Tywin lucky - luck favors the prepared, which is what Tywin is. And people seem to forget that Tywin seems to have orchestrated the RW, thus winning the war. How is this luck? I also cannot quite believe how Robb is being brought into this. I have never been a fan of Robb, exactly, but I'd never call him a Mary Sue. Robb was very dumb, and paid in full by destroying his family by proclaiming himself king instead of actively seeking an alliance with Stannis (or even Renly) to avenge his father and see justice for the crown. Dany was dumb and was rewarded with dragons, soldiers, and love.

My final point is, how can anyone compare the quality of writing of Dany to the stories of someone like Stannis or Theon? These are complicated people facing real hardships and paying for every last mistake they make. I find it hard for anyone to be a fan of Dany when such amazing characters exist, but to each his own.

[Queen of Everything]

Y'know, I just realized Dany's, like, two or three years older than Arya, tops. If Arya was doing the same thing Dany was -- gathering an army and defeating whole forces -- would we praise her story, as well?

[Toe]

As for the criticisms about people like LF, Bronn and Varys who "never lose," the love for them is simple: they are charming characters. Dany is far from that - which is what this thread was originally about. Those aforementioned characters also have logical explanations to why they are as skilled as they are- they aren't uneducated 14 year old girls. Also, people calling Tywin lucky - luck favors the prepared, which is what Tywin is. And people seem to forget that Tywin seems to have orchestrated the RW, thus winning the war. How is this luck? I also cannot quite believe how Robb is being brought into this. I have never been a fan of Robb, exactly, but I'd never call him a Mary Sue. Robb was very dumb, and paid in full by destroying his family by proclaiming himself king instead of actively seeking an alliance with Stannis (or even Renly) to avenge his father and see justice for the crown. Dany was dumb and was rewarded with dragons, soldiers, and love.

Not sure where you got the idea that Dany is uneducated. Again, a 14 year old with high IQ will be smarter than most adults.

Hm, so if you are witty as a person, then it is ok to have "luck" or be a Mary Sue? But if you are not witty, then it is not?

Twyin did not orchestrate the RW. It is stated on several places that the plan most likely comes from the Freys. Tywin was lucky that Robb made a mistake and that the Freys in response formulated this plan.

I do no see anyone calling Robb a Mary Sue in this thread? Maybe you misread?

[Toe]

For starters, Bronn and Littlefinger aren't POV characters, so it's really not the same situation. We don't know what goes through their heads for example, like we do with Dany. They're also a lot let present. It's easier to ignore a minor character that annoys you than a character which has a good dozen chapters throughout three novels and whoe thoughts are completely open to us. Besides, the situation is entirely different. The problem isn't so much that Dany is always winning, the problem is the way in which she's winning, without ever losing anything important (beyond GoT that is), and without even having to tarnish her reputation one bit. On the contrary, she's called the Mother of Slaves and the Mother of Dragons, and everybody basically loves her. Bronn and LF win because they're not afraid to make harsh/cruel decisions. Not the same situation at all IMO. And no one loves LF or Bronn like Dany is loved by those 10,000 slaves she freed. The fact that Dany can still win easily while not having to make a single hard choice that would tarnish her reputation is what is unrealistic.

How has LFs reputation been tarnished? Almost no one knows what he has done. You are saying that if Dany become more cruel you would like her better? Says there is a food shortage and she decides to let some thousands starve to death, then you would like her more?

[Evamitchelle]

There's a difference between education and intelligence. Dany may have an IQ of 200, it doesn't mean she can know things she's never learned. Robb (since you keep mentioning him, I'll use as example), as Heir to Winterfell, as received an extensive military education both in actual swordsmanship and strategy by his father and Ser Rodrik Cassel, which makes it believable that he could come up with good fighting plans, especially when surrounded by experienced battle commanders/warriors such as his bannermen. Dany on the other hand, never mind that the fact that she never stayed more than 6 months in one place, would never have received any military education whatsoever because, well, she's a girl. Girls don't get educated about military strategy in Westeros.

And yeah, someone called Robb a Mary Sue (well, Gary Stu), I think it's on the previous page.

[Horza]

Tywin orchestrated the Frey defection and the death of Robb Stark, the Red Wedding itself was Walder Frey's doing.

[Smashing Praise]

Y'know, I just realized Dany's, like, two or three years older than Arya, tops. If Arya was doing the same thing Dany was -- gathering an army and defeating whole forces -- would we praise her story, as well?

For the record, I hate Arya's story line about just as much, but the main difference is Arya meets awesome and exotic people and she isn't shaping up to be the damn queen of anything. I find her story as implausible, baffling, and one dimensional as Dany's, but that discussion is for another thread.

Not sure where you got the idea that Dany is uneducated. Again, a 14 year old with high IQ will be smarter than most adults.

Hm, so if you are witty as as a person, then it is ok to have "luck" or be a Mary Sue? But if you are not witty, then it is not?

Twyin did not orchestrate the RW. It is stated on several places that the plan most likely come from the Freys. Tywin was lucky that Robb made a mistake and that the Freys in response formulated this plan.

I do no see anyone calling Robb a Mary Sue in this thread? Maybe you misread?

I get the idea from the fact that she has been on the run her whole life. She has no maester, and after her time in the house with the red door, no one but Viserys. She has been taught little, and less about war and politics, which she excels at. How do you figure she's educated?

Tywin is far too flawed to be a Mary Sue, and as stated before, he and his family are rather worse for the wear now. His luck is nothing compared to Dany's, and her wit is nothing compared to his.

I do not remember this, but I could be wrong. I thought it was heavily implied that he set up the deal with Sybelle, and tried to keep his hands off the RW personally while still orchestrating a downfall in some capacity. I admit he wasn't there playing "The Rains of Castamere" himself, but he's all the more clever for this fact. The Lannisters being involved with a scheme that broke guest rights would have been terrible for them. Though when Dany rips a guy off instead of fairly paying what she promised, then slaughters him with what is rightly his, no one cares.

Perhaps I did, but he has been mentioned nonetheless. I wanted to add my opinion.

[Evamitchelle]

How has LF reputation been tarnished? Almost no one knows what he has done. You are saying that if Dany become more cruel you would like her better? Says there is a food shortage and she decides to let some thousands starve to death, then you would like her more?

No one trusts him ? No one loves him ? Except for Lysa but she's crazy and he ends up killing her anyway. My point is that he isn't worshiped like Dany is. And what I'm saying is that if Dany had to get her hands dirty a little bit more, then I'd definitely like her more. As it stands, everything she gains, she won it without losing her honor or integrity. Ned Stark did that, and he died because of it.

[Horza]

I do not remember this, but I could be wrong. I thought it was heavily implied that he set up the deal with Sybelle, and tried to keep his hands off the RW personally while still orchestrating a downfall in some capacity. I admit he wasn't there playing "The Rains of Castamere" himself, but he's all the more clever for this fact. The Lannisters being involved with a scheme that broke guest rights would have been terrible for them.

He's involved in the setup but he was under the impression it would be a hunting accident or something similar, not the murderiffic slaughterfest it turned out to be.

[Toe]

Tywin orchestrated the Frey defection and the death of Robb Stark, the Red Wedding itself was Walder Frey's doing.

No. The available evidence is that the Freys defected after Robb broke the marriage with the Freys. Then the Freys formulated the plan for the RW. Tywin simply accepted the proposal.

[Horza]

No. The available evidence is that the Freys defected after Robb broke the marriage with the Freys. Then the Freys formulated the plan for the RW. Tywin simply accepted the proposal.

Robb's breaking of the marriage pact was almost certainly orchestrated by Tywin with Sybell Westerling and used as a means of cementing Frey's antipathy.

[Evamitchelle]

What about Sybel Spicer then ? What arrangement could she have had with Tywin if he took no part in the Red Wedding or the Frey's betrayal ?

[Toe]

No one trusts him ? No one loves him ? Except for Lysa but she's crazy and he ends up killing her anyway. My point is that he isn't worshiped like Dany is. And what I'm saying is that if Dany had to get her hands dirty a little bit more, then I'd definitely like her more. As it stands, everything she gains, she won it without losing her honor or integrity. Ned Stark did that, and he died because of it.

Almost no one knows what LF has done so his reputation is not tarnished. He is still viewed as essentially harmless without an army of his own. Jaime in AFFC considers him for the next treasurer after he expects LF to be kicked out of the Vale.

Sometimes good things happen to good people... Expecting all good acts to be punished is just unrealistic...

[Toe]

Robb's breaking of the marriage pact was almost certainly orchestrated by Tywin with Sybell Westerling and used as a means of cementing Frey's antipathy.

Really? Tywin caused Robb to be injured at this particular place?