The quote that sums up how bad Dany is

[TrueMetis]

I'm guessing she would have gone on the run with Jorah instead. And in this scenario, she could still have been a contender for the throne, if a much weaker one. But, same diff.

I had forgotten about Jorah.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I have been reading this thread off and on. Personally, I'm neutral about Dany. I liked her originally, but less so as the series has gone on. Though my biggest issue is every Dany chapter is not a chapter dealing with the current Westros civil war. It is the same reason I want to get through the Jon chapters and the Iron Islands (who until the end of FfC I never really considered important enough and besides Theon and Asha, I generally dislike them as people). So, really not Dany's fault.

1. As far Dany's tactical prowess, so what if she has not faced any major enemies? She's just learning and frankly, if she had to deal with true threats, it would get annoying since more chapters would be devoted to somewhere that does not even affect Westros.

Plot-wise: Dany needed to quickly build a power base and learn how to rule.

Story-wise: Not every nation has great tacticians and warriors like Westros. I got that the cities Dany conquered were a civilization on the decline. A shadow of its former glory. Just no one had a reason to destroy it before Dany (if anything, I think the biggest threat would not be the cities, but their customers who just lost their source of slaves). They weren't powerhouses, but that is entirely realistic.

2. And there has been a sympathetic character who hated her: Robert. Do not get me wrong, Robert was flawed, but he was clearly a good guy. I noticed several people have discounted him as a "sympathetic character" based on the order to assassinate Dany.

a) Clearly, he was conflicted. Hence his deathbed change of heart.

B) He was entirely right. Dany is now building an army to invade Westros (she is basically a foreigner, and her army is certainly full of foreigners). And before that, her son was destined to become the khol who would bring the world under his rule (who would grow up hearing from his mother how he is the rightful king of Westros).

It's the king's duty to protect the land against foreign invasions. Was it moral? No. Robert knew that. But was it the right decision? Yeah. And Robert feared that.

I'm not gonna argue against those who think she's a Mary Sue or those who think she's awesome. I'm neutral, at least until she gets more involved with Westros and her chapters seem less like a distraction. I jusrt wanted to answer a few points people have made.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

I think people have valid complaints about the Daenerys and Jon characters, but I really do have faith that ADWD will address these concerns. Jon will have to make some tough choices as Lord Commander (we've already seen that with the baby swap), and I very much doubt Dany is going to have an easy time in ADWD.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

No, Dany is too good and noble for real human flaws. Even the "flaws" GRRM has given her--being too impulsive in freeing the slaves, being cruel to the EVIL slavers--don't seem like real flaws, because they only highlight how good and noble she is. Plenty of people in this thread have said so: "She freed the slaves! She cares about the lives of the common people! What other nobles in this series would have done that?" It's true. But it makes her dull and even irritating. And, as I've said before, in a series full of gray, amoral characters, it sticks out.

Actually, since Westros does not have slavery, there is a good chance a lot of nobles would have in that situation. I could even see Tywin doing it. Not because he cared for the slaves, but because it is beneath House Lannister to have them.

And for the record, I believe Dany does not give a damn about the common people. She only cares about her rightful throne. She doesn't seem to concern after she found out the common people do not care who rules. Nor does she care about bringing a foreign army to invade their land. I do not remember her ever claiming to take Westros and make it a safe place for the common people after she found out they don't care. And it would be a legitimate, heroic reason considering how badly the war has been for them. She only cares about her right as a Targareon.

[CatelynFan]

And for the record, I believe Dany does not give a damn about the common people. She only cares about her rightful throne. She doesn't seem to concern after she found out the common people do not care who rules. Nor does she care about bringing a foreign army to invade their land. I do not remember her ever claiming to take Westros and make it a safe place for the common people after she found out they don't care. And it would be a legitimate, heroic reason considering how badly the war has been for them. She only cares about her right as a Targareon.

To her credit, she is only fifteen, and she knows almost nothing about Westeros. Probably Barristan will be filling her in in the upcoming books. I actually think her sense of entitlement is the most realistic part of her character after AGOT.

I think she really does care about the common people--for now. After all, if she'd only cared about her rightful throne, she wouldn't have bothered freeing the slaves in Yunkai and Mereen and would have just taken her Unsullied and gone. Whether she'll continue to care as she grows older and more experienced remains to be seen.

[Enguerrand]

Where in this thread has ANYONE argued that Grey Wind is less contrived than Dany's dragons? In fact, where in this thread has anyone even brought up Robb and Grey Wind, except you? Why are you attributing to us statements we haven't even made?

That's his point. The Dany haters never brings up the superwolves, but find that Dany's dragons gives her a unfair advantage and makes her story contrived.

Yet they dont find Jon and his ghost so troublesome that they argue the point over 20 pages.

I like Dany because I think she is a rare breed of fantasy heroine. In most fantasy female protagonist are protofeminists, that are powerful sorceress or can swing 6 foot swords just as well as any of the guys. Even if they are born royals they downplay it.They are firm but never harsh. The piggy men villain get their comeuppance, and she has dashing handsomely sensitive love interest cheering her on at the side.

Dany is none of this. She wields power being a girl in a pseduomedieval setting in a way that makes sense to me. She is arrogant and harsh even cruel against those who defy her, yet have a compassion for justice that isn't tainted by 21th century values.

The men do the heavy lifting for her and she is fine with that and plays them in ways that make you understand why they accept her leadership even though it goes against convention.

I think the first time really wowed at Dany was when Jorah was trying to explain why she can't stop the gangrapes which is a natural part of war. Here in all other cases I would expect something like a declaration of why rape is wrong or how Jorah can say something that awful , Daenerys just dont give a fuck, she is a queen and its not for someone like Jorah to tell her what she can or cannot do.

and Jorah rather then being offended is awed.

[Enguerrand]

And for the record, I believe Dany does not give a damn about the common people. She only cares about her rightful throne. She doesn't seem to concern after she found out the common people do not care who rules. Nor does she care about bringing a foreign army to invade their land. I do not remember her ever claiming to take Westros and make it a safe place for the common people after she found out they don't care. And it would be a legitimate, heroic reason considering how badly the war has been for them. She only cares about her right as a Targareon.

“Do you remember Eroeh?” she asked him.

“The Lhazareen girl?”

“They were raping her, but I stopped them and took her under my protection. Only when my sun-and-stars was dead Mago took her back, used her again, and killed her. Aggo said it was her fate.”

“I remember,” Ser Jorah said.

“I was alone for a long time, Jorah. All alone but for my brother. I was such a small scared thing. Viserys should have protected me, but instead he hurt me and scared me worse. He shouldn’t have done that. He wasn’t just my brother, he was my king. Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can’t protect themselves?”

“Some kings make themselves. Robert did.”

“He was no true king,” Dany said scornfully. “He did no justice. justice . . . that’s what kings are for.”

[TrueMetis]

That's his point. The Dany haters never brings up the superwolves, but find that Dany's dragons gives her a unfair advantage and makes her story contrived.

Yet they dont find Jon and his ghost so troublesome that they argue the point over 20 pages.

Dire wolves weren't extinct and brought back via contrived magic ritual.

“Do you remember Eroeh?” she asked him.

“The Lhazareen girl?”

“They were raping her, but I stopped them and took her under my protection. Only when my sun-and-stars was dead Mago took her back, used her again, and killed her. Aggo said it was her fate.”

“I remember,” Ser Jorah said.

“I was alone for a long time, Jorah. All alone but for my brother. I was such a small scared thing. Viserys should have protected me, but instead he hurt me and scared me worse. He shouldn’t have done that. He wasn’t just my brother, he was my king. Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can’t protect themselves?”

“Some kings make themselves. Robert did.”

“He was no true king,” Dany said scornfully. “He did no justice. justice . . . that’s what kings are for.”

Justice, was that what nailing 100+ people to sticks was?

[spitsphyre]

Dire wolves weren't extinct and brought back via contrived magic ritual.

Actually they WERE believed extinct to those who lived south of the wall. It was a complete anomaly to see one. (similarly those in the 7 Kingdoms believe that wargs and greenseers are gone but no one complains that Bran and Jon - and to some extent Robb and Arya - can see through their wolves eyes, that Bran gets visions or that Jojen can dream of the future. Or hell, that Milisandre can do things no one in the 7 Kingdoms thinks possible)

And we don't know for sure that all the dragons WERE gone before hers were born. There seem to be hints that some might still live, just not where the cultures we are in contract with would know about.

And I just want to say, not refuting anyone's opinions about whether or not Dany is a good character/leader, but using the particular quote that started this thread as an excuse for it is pretty flimsy. The reasoning for why she's stupid for being able to make that observation displays a clear lack of understanding of character development (for fictional people AND real people) She is learning a lot about herself and has come to see her brother in a more realistic way. People do that, not just in books.

Maybe you don't think she could have the tactical knowledge she displays or you think the battles she has won aren't realistic enough or that she's unjust or that she's a mary sue or that she's got dues ex machina on display, fine. There are good reasons for all of those arguments. But saying that in just a few months (which it was in the book, her stomach was showing at that point) after a major life change she couldn't come to see her brother as he actually was to everyone else is not exactly being fair. That's looking for a reason to get upset.

[Enguerrand]

Justice, was that what nailing 100+ people to sticks was?

She thought so, yes.

[The Sand Snake]

Jeeze man you guys get so much written on here whenever I'm off line. It sucks reading through all of these pages.

While it seems like were really going in circles, I want to address some points.

First, the whole sexist thing is ridiculous guys. I'm a guy, and not sexist, and I truly dont believe the people commenting in this thread are sexist.

As for the Dany-Robb comparisons, like someone said, whenever you guys make these comparisons, you leave out certain things. Robb and Danys enimies are different. Robbs were much stronger. And Robb makes mistakes which he really pays for(With his life, his mothers life, most of his friends lives also). When things go wrong for him(Like Dany with Drogo and her unborn son)he isnt granted 3 dragons too take their place right away. Plus, when you make the Dany-Robb assumption I feel like that means we like Robb. Some of us dont. I, for one, dont really care for him.

Next, were probbaly never going to agree. But thats alright. Personally, the things I dont like about Dany are these. 1. I think her enimies are comical and contrived. They are evil beyond redemption, and they must die! This annoys me. 2. THe dragons. They were dead. But blood magic miracles spring them to life right after she is left with nothing(The Khal is dead). Just so lame to me. 3. The fact that a 14 year old girl knows enough about combat to win battles and have great ideas. Girls generally dont learn these matters(We get that from the Arya/Sansa chapters I think) so how does she know this stuff? And on the other side, some say the things she did were easy manuvers, ect, then we have to ask why were her battles so easy to win? Its one or the other. Either way I see it as unrealistic.

[Evamitchelle]

That's his point. The Dany haters never brings up the superwolves, but find that Dany's dragons gives her a unfair advantage and makes her story contrived.

Yet they dont find Jon and his ghost so troublesome that they argue the point over 20 pages.

This is a Dany thread though. I don't see why I should have to point out every other detail that I don't like/find problematic about the series to justify my dislike of Dany's character.

[spitsphyre]

3. The fact that a 14 year old girl knows enough about combat to win battles and have great ideas. Girls generally dont learn these matters(We get that from the Arya/Sansa chapters I think) so how does she know this stuff?

On the subject of gender in this world:

There is precedent for warrior queens/princesses/ladies in this world. In the 7 Kingdoms Dorne trains its women to rule and that includes how to fight. The Mormont women are certainly not the norm but they were there. And then you have Asha on the Iron Islands. And the wilding women know how to fight, some of them very well. It was even implied that Lyanna learned how to fight and we KNOW Arya was learning.

They also have stories of queens and women who acted differently. Not normally but they're there.

So while you have a point with the whole "she hasn't been trained" it should be noted that she wouldn't be the first woman leading an army that this planet has experienced.

[Grogsmash]

Justice, was that what nailing 100+ people to sticks was?

Not so much justice as something that was necessary to stop something like it from happening ever again. She had to send a message that murdering/torturing slaves just to piss her off wasn't a tactic she would stand for. As someone said previously, Dany isn't the stereotypical female hero that is all the time niceness and roses. When necessary she can be just as brutal as anyone else. I think that any future foe that she faces will now think twice about doing something similar.

I really don't see how it is possible to say she doesn't care about the people that she rules or wants to free. I think it says quite a bit about Dany that her enemies perceive the best way to piss her off and mock her is to torture slaves that she wants to protect.

[TrueMetis]

Actually they WERE believed extinct to those who lived south of the wall. It was a complete anomaly to see one. (similarly those in the 7 Kingdoms believe that wargs and greenseers are gone but no one complains that Bran and Jon - and to some extent Robb and Arya - can see through their wolves eyes, that Bran gets visions or that Jojen can dream of the future. Or hell, that Milisandre can do things no one in the 7 Kingdoms thinks possible)

I don't think you know what the word extinct means.

And we don't know for sure that all the dragons WERE gone before hers were born. There seem to be hints that some might still live, just not where the cultures we are in contract with would know about.

That doesn't change the fact that the eggs she had were stone.

[spitsphyre]

I don't think you know what the word extinct means.

There's a difference between people believing something is extinct and them actually being extinct.

[TrueMetis]

There's a difference between people believing something is extinct and them actually being extinct.

They didn't believe them to be extinct though.

[The Sand Snake]

On the subject of gender in this world:

There is precedent for warrior queens/princesses/ladies in this world. In the 7 Kingdoms Dorne trains its women to rule and that includes how to fight. The Mormont women are certainly not the norm but they were there. And then you have Asha on the Iron Islands. And the wilding women know how to fight, some of them very well. It was even implied that Lyanna learned how to fight and we KNOW Arya was learning.

They also have stories of queens and women who acted differently. Not normally but they're there.

So while you have a point with the whole "she hasn't been trained" it should be noted that she wouldn't be the first woman leading an army that this planet has experienced.

Oh its not unprecedented by any standard. However, you pointed out like 6 people out of thousands of women. And the women that you are saying were trained in combat, not just in tactics. I find it hard to believe Viserys and Illyrio decided at a young ago to train Dany in war tactics. And then decided not to train her in combat.e

[CatelynFan]

This is a Dany thread though. I don't see why I should have to point out every other detail that I don't like/find problematic about the series to justify my dislike of Dany's character.

Indeed. Why bring up the superwolves in a Dany thread? If someone wants to talk about the wolves, they should start a Stark Boys thread. (For the record, I think the direwolves are as contrived as the dragons.)

Dany is none of this. She wields power being a girl in a pseduomedieval setting in a way that makes sense to me. She is arrogant and harsh even cruel against those who defy her, yet have a compassion for justice that isn't tainted by 21th century values.

The men do the heavy lifting for her and she is fine with that and plays them in ways that make you understand why they accept her leadership even though it goes against convention.

The way she wields power makes sense. What I take issue with are the near-constant victories she has with that power (which have already been covered in exhaustive detail) and the fact that despite that power, she still remains as noble, heroic, and squeaky-clean as ever. As I said, I don't feel that the harshness and cruelty towards the slavers count, not only because they're ridiculously evil and written to be hated, but because they hardly matter in the grand scheme of things. Westeros is Dany's real goal, and it's quite possible that by the time she gets there, she'll be the perfect queen: just, wise, compassionate, strong, etc. Which wouldn't matter except it would make her exceptionally boring to read about.

If she gets to Westeros and starts cruelly punishing characters we're familiar with, as well as characters who are important in the power base of Westeros (the Tyrells and Littlefinger spring to mind), I'll agree wholeheartedly with your statement. As it is, though, the fact that those who defy her are evil sockpuppets who don't even play a major role in the series detracts from her potential flaws and makes her seem flat.

However, I think her exile of Jorah showed a hint of gray in her character. Jorah was the only fleshed-out character surrounding her. I understand why she sent him away and agree with her reasoning, but I still think his absence will pose problems for her in the future. He was the only one of her allies who gave her sound advice. Until Tyrion or Quentyn Martell reaches her, almost none of her allies will be able to replace him. They'll kiss her feet, call her the "Mother of Dragons," and obey her commands, but they certainly won't be advisors. Ser Barristan is the only one who could even come close to replacing Jorah.

[spitsphyre]

Oh its not unprecedented by any standard. However, you pointed out like 6 people out of thousands of women. And the women that you are saying were trained in combat, not just in tactics. I find it hard to believe Viserys and Illyrio decided at a young ago to train Dany in war tactics. And then decided not to train her in combat.e

The only reason I posted that was because you made the comment that girls don't learn things like that. I was merely pointing out that in this world it's uncommon but not as much as it was in our world. (And the population of Dorne and the wildings having women trained to fight not infrequently makes it a lot more than "just 6 girls." Plus I only mentioned women and girls from the last 50 or so years, there's thousands before that.) If you notice, I do say you have a point about her training so I can see where you were coming from, but that broad statement doesn't hold up. Not going to argue that this is WHY it makes it ok for Dany, simply saying it isn't too terribly out of the ordinary, it's just not the norm.

I don't think Varys or Illyrio were planning on teaching Dany anything at any point and I don't believe I ever implied that.