[BOOK/TV SPOILERS]Television Without Pity nOObs Thread

[Ahri Adaran]

What's really funny about many of those 'who sent the knife' posts is that those same people frequently comment in passing about what a sneaky, lying, treacherous weasel Littlefinger is, a few wonder if he had a hand in it, but I haven't seen anyone yet absolutely nail LF with the deed.

Glad we're back up and running again. Keep it clean, folks!

Or even more surprising, we don't see ANYONE saying "wait a second, the only evidence we have that it was Tyrion's knife is Littlefinger said so. Why the fuck should we trust him?" They all seem to be taking it as a given that it was Tyrion's knife. I can't blame them that much thought, that was what a lot of people on this board did before ASoS was published (the Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory etc.).

[Seerow]

Or even more surprising, we don't see ANYONE saying "wait a second, the only evidence we have that it was Tyrion's knife is Littlefinger said so. Why the fuck should we trust him?" They all seem to be taking it as a given that it was Tyrion's knife. I can't blame them that much thought, that was what a lot of people on this board did before ASoS was published (the Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory etc.).

To be fair, they skipped the scene where Tyrion says it can't be his knife because he never bets against family. So we have a scene where we see Tyrion being told the assassin was armed with his knife, and then 2 whole episodes where there's plenty of time to deny it, and he never does except to say he'd be an idiot to arm the assassin with his own knife.

Most of the people in the thread are speculating that as meaning he lost his knife and someone else gave it to the assassin. But since he never actually denied the knife is his, there's no reason for anyone to suspect it's not.

[Anomandaris86]

Hopefully tonight's episode will rectify that situation.

[iheartseverus]

What fun! Apparently, the title of tonight's episode 'The Pointy End' has just been posted at TWoP and they're all excited, knowing immediately who and what the tile refers to. Lots of anticipation going on over there (as is here, too!!), lots of anticipation. Some comments..

Alright, this must be open for speculation by now, since it's up as a thread name in the forum. Arya's going to be slicing a diagonal line through someone tonight! "The pointy end"!

That's what Arya says she knows to use a sword for! It's got to be what it means, right? I've been so excited since I saw the episode title. Who's she going to attack? Fingers crossed for Joffrey! Woohoo!Yes please!!!!!!!! Go Arya!!

I hope Littlefinger doesn't end up using the pointy end of his dagger on Ned...

Why did Renly run away with Loras? Was he afraid Cersei would use the pointy end of the Hound on him?

I hope Stannis is in this episode, everyone knows "...what he is..." except us.

(My note--this is in reference to one of the characters awhile back--Renly? Loras? Can't recall.. anyway, saying 'everyone knows' what Stannis is. LOL, the nOObs went bonkers at that--WE don't know! Arrrghh, they're making my head hurt! That 'everyone knows..' comment plus the description of Stannis having the personality of a lobster has engendered a lot of fun, wild supposition over at TWoP)

I hope Littlefinger doesn't end up using the pointy end of his dagger on Ned...

No, don't even think it! This is going to be Arya's first dance performance, I tell you! She's going to clean house!

Or, well, probably not likely, considering the number of armed and armored guards she'd have to go through... But she will do something awesome! And, please, don't kill Ned in this episode. Let me relax in some sort of triumph before I have to bawl my eyes out.

Maybe Arya helps break Ned out of the dungeons?

LOL, a good snarky comment over at Tower of the Hand:

No doubt the Forel / Trant encounter will wind its way through a whorehouse during a group "training session"...

Also pretty funny that at TWoP in the Book vs. TV threads, book readers call the nOObs in the other thread 'the Unsullied.

:lol:

[Songstress]

Also pretty funny that at TWoP in the Book vs. TV threads, book readers call the nOObs in the other thread 'the Unsullied.

:lol:

Ahahaha.... I love it!

[iheartseverus]

Comment and response following tonight's Ep. #8.

I felt for Sansa this episode, but what I don't understand is why was that old dude so vicious with Sansa about the treason stuff, he may as well have screamed "off with her head" with all his spewing. Funny enough Varys seemed as if he was trying to help Ned, with the water and then essentially in his own way saying that his "Grace" should heed Sansa and show mercy.

While watching him pour on the venom all I kept wondering was who could have pissed in his Metamucil..horrible little old man. Then I conjured Drogo ripping his tongue out and I laughed myself silly.

:lol:

[The Anti-Targ]

Wow, interesting pitball about a link between white walkers and dragons. Has anyone here suggested a connection like this?

I wonder if, in fact, the ecology of the planet sort of developed to have both Ice monsters and dragons to keep the natural world in balance. Perhaps dragons die out without the threat of the White Walkers when they are having their thousand year snoozes under the ice.(I'm now imagining them as a particularly virulent form of cicada.) The emergence of the WW's may be what triggers the hatching of the dragon eggs.

[Marius]

And here's the link to the TWoP thread.

Still running in circles about who sent a knife after Bran. It's making my head hurt. Some people think it'll be revealed this season.

Uh, don't read on if you don't want to know,

SPOILER ALERT: The guy who sent it was Joffrey, upon hearing Robert(his dad) say that he doesn't think anyone should live that way. He takes the weapon from his father's stores, and gets one of the hanger-ons to go back and kill him. Another reason to hate Joffrey :)

[Basileus777]

Wow, interesting pitball about a link between white walkers and dragons. Has anyone here suggested a connection like this?

Dragons died out pretty recently in the grand scheme of things, it's certainly not in line with the Long Night that occured many thousands of years ago.

[iheartseverus]

Uh, don't read on if you don't want to know,

SPOILER ALERT: The guy who sent it was Joffrey, upon hearing Robert(his dad) say that he doesn't think anyone should live that way. He takes the weapon from his father's stores, and gets one of the hanger-ons to go back and kill him. Another reason to hate Joffrey :)

Hi, Marius: Welcome to the board! Just to clarify, Anti-Targ was not asking in the previous post who sent the knife. We all know who sent the knife because we've all read the books. Anti-Targ was simply quoting a non-book-reader's post from another site called Television Without Pity. Members at that site discuss the mysteries and issues of the story based only upon what they see on the HBO series. They have not, and don't want to, read the books. We book readers are not welcome to post over there, (and we don't!) because they don't want to be spoiled--their enjoyment in the story comes from watching the weekly episode and then discussing and taking guesses among themselves about what it all means, who did what and what will happen next.

Some of us here at Westeros.org like to follow their comments and thoughts on the series since it gives us fresh new perspectives, 'seeing' the story through the eyes of someone who's discovering the story only via the HBO series, not the books. And, when we find funny or clever or especially insightful postings over at TWoP, we copy that post over here so we book readers can see and discuss it. That's what Anti-Targ was doing in the post you responded to--simply quoting what the TWoP members are talking about at their site.

Again, welcome!

[DireLlama]

I felt kinda sad when so many of them said that they'd decided not to read any of the books until the HBO series ends. A few were thinking of reading AGoT after the first season finishes, but then Taco let them know that it might spoil a few things for later seasons, so they started deciding that they won't read at all.

Makes me sad that they're depriving themselves of awesome books just to avoid the one or two hints they might pick up for what might happen in future seasons. Oh well, never mind, it means that we get to read their amusing speculation!

But then I suppose I'm thinking about it from the wrong direction since I'd always rather experience something like this in its original incarnation (i.e. the book) before an adaptation. It also speaks volumes about their restraint. So many of them are absolutely dying to know what happens next, and they know that all the information is out there, just a few clicks away. They've done really well to resist.

I love the reactions that Robb got this week.

HELLOOOO Robb! He went from Robb Who? to Robb Wooh! in no time flat.

Hooray for Robb!

[iheartseverus]

Gotta love it that somebody over there in the (spoiler) Book vs TV thread referred to the TV-only people as 'the Unsullied.'

:lol: '

ETA: Another good line from the Unsullied.

Syrio Forel is not dead. Until they actually show me his body, I refuse to believe he is dead. Hell, with what's going on at the Wall, even that probably wouldn't be enough.

[Brewmaster]

Awesome thought process that leads to the right conclusion.

"I came to this conclusion because I just don’t see anyone but a Lannister wanting Bram dead and Joffrey is far and away the only Lannister stupid enough to fuck up an assignation attempt that badly. Seriously it was like the worst plot ever! Set a fire and stand in the shadows with a witness to your crime who doesn’t see you and then decided “what the hell? I’ll give it a shot anyway.” And then get bit by a dog. I mean seven hells, that thing sucked. And who is the only Lannister who sucks? Joffrey, that’s who! "

[The Anti-Targ]

Uh, don't read on if you don't want to know,

SPOILER ALERT: The guy who sent it was Joffrey, upon hearing Robert(his dad) say that he doesn't think anyone should live that way. He takes the weapon from his father's stores, and gets one of the hanger-ons to go back and kill him. Another reason to hate Joffrey :)

What iheartseverus said. And to confrim: my head hurts with all the circular running the TWoPers are doing on this subject. The other funny thing is that those who advocate for Joffery did it seem not to be listened to by those who advocate a more convoluted conspiracy.

Of course they all think (as we did before AfFC) that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. And they think Varys had little birds in Winterfell and LF had his eyes too, when Varys and LF are totally clueless to the assassination attempt and the involvement of the knife until after Cat gets to KL. So the smoke and mirrors around this part of the story are very different to what we got in the book.

Interesting that some people are tiring of Dany's story line. Seems they're only into to the Dany storyline for the dragons.

[Bahimiron]

Love this line from the boards.

Okay one final thing about Syrio (argh! I will miss you Syrio, Just So!):

The very last thing he teaches Arya (sob!) is to watch out for double crosses. He tells her to go one way, implying he will be doing a certain thing, and then he does the opposite thing, and Arya is flummoxed and angry. "You were supposed to go left!" And he said, you should have been watching me, and Arya said she was, but then Syrio says no, there's a difference between seeing and really seeing someone, and really seeing someone is the heart of swordplay. Ok I'm doing a piss-poor job of summarizing the dialogue but those are the basics.

Here's my translation:

Syrio: Aha! I cheated! Did you see how I cheated and didn't do what I said I would do?

Arya: DAMMIT, NO ONE IS EVER SUPPOSED TO LIE OR CHEAT EVER EVER EVER!!! That is what we Starks grow up believing with every fiber of our noble upstanding beings!!!

Syrio: Yes, it's not honorable to cheat and lie, but Arya, you nevertheless MUST expect people to cheat and lie to your face, and you MUST be able to see it coming!! Being able to see when people are saying one thing and doing another, when they are trying to deceive you and double-cross you, *that* is how to get by in this world.

So basically I think Syrio's Last Lesson (boo! sob!) is about how Arya has to be less Stark-like, at least in this one respect, that she cannot and must not take people at their word, but rather look into their eyes (souls? hearts? personal histories?) and judge for herself whether or not they are truthful. Since we see what a huge failing it has been in Ned to not be able to tell friends from enemies, victims from perpetrators, Lannisters Who Should Be Forewarned from Lannisters Who Should Be Thrown Into the Dungeon Right This Second, it is brilliant that Arya gets exactly the lesson she needs from her Dancing Master, right before he meets his end (ugh!), and she has to brave the wide world all alone.

Sadly the poster also needs to be less Stark-like. Cos Syrio's teaching Arya a lesson, but he's also teaching you a lesson. Your main character's gon' DIE, son!

[iheartseverus]

Love this line from the boards.

Sadly the poster also needs to be less Stark-like. Cos Syrio's teaching Arya a lesson, but he's also teaching you a lesson. Your main character's gon' DIE, son!

And you sound so thrilled about that.

[Ahri Adaran]

I really like how the unsullied (I love that nickname :) ) have drawn a parallel between Mycah and Syrio both being caught with Arya with stick swords. Nifty, I never noticed that.

And you sound so thrilled about that.

I'm waiting for the first ragequit over "But but but they kill EVERYONE I care about even a LITTLE bit!" We shall feast upon their tears ;)

[The Anti-Targ]

I really like how the unsullied (I love that nickname :) ) have drawn a parallel between Mycah and Syrio both being caught with Arya with stick swords. Nifty, I never noticed that.

I'm waiting for the first ragequit over "But but but they kill EVERYONE I care about even a LITTLE bit!" We shall feast upon their tears ;)

I'm thinking now that the Unsullied are starting to groove on Robb the Red Wedding will cause some ragequitting, if we get that far. Everyone else from now until then is pretty expendible without too much emotional investment. At least that's what I felt. I felt no kick in the guts until the Red Wedding.

Also seems like they are expecting Ned to proclaim Joff's bastardy and for him to die that way. And they think that will be an honourable death. So if they play it the way it is in the book it seems the Unsullied's esteem for Ned's honour might be a little sullied next episode.

[iheartseverus]

I'm thinking now that the Unsullied are starting to groove on Robb the Red Wedding will cause some ragequitting, if we get that far. Everyone else from now until then is pretty expendible without too much emotional investment. At least that's what I felt. I felt no kick in the guts until the Red Wedding.

Also seems like they are expecting Ned to proclaim Joff's bastardy and for him to die that way. And they think that will be an honourable death. So if they play it the way it is in the book it seems the Unsullied's esteem for Ned's honour might be a little sullied next episode.

Agree. The Red Wedding is pretty much a kick in the guts for everybody, sullied and Unsullied alike, I'm guessing. I think much of their reaction will be based on how HBO presents the who did this question. Obviously, it can't be as drawn out and murky and drip-by-drip as it was in the book. I'm guessing something like, when its all over and everyone's sitting there in stunned horror and disbelief, we'll have some nameless messenger whispering in Tywin's ear and then his cold, satisfied smile and 'A Lannister always pays his debts.'

Something on that order, I think. Because then, the Unsullied will immediately go full-out mad on the Lannisters IMO, rather than walking away in disgust. Revenge! Revenge! They will become Northmen, if HBO plays it right. My two cents.

As to Ned's death, seems to me they're fully expecting it. Some hope for miracles of course (hey, I still wait for Syrio to reappear!) but most have seen it coming. In the way the death actually happens, well, I see it as honorable, too. Would you say anything you had to say to save the lives of your kids? Of course, so would I, so would everyone. To me anyway, that makes him even more honorable (if that's possible!). He would not and did not bend, ever, not for glory, not for power, not for expediency, not for anything. But, for his kids? Yes. That's...lovely, in a way.

[Brewmaster]

if they play it the way it is in the book it seems the Unsullied's esteem for Ned's honour might be a little sullied next episode.

That's always been what makes the moment so terrible. They even manage to take his honor away from him. Finally get him to play the game for a moment to save himself, and Joff kills him anyway.

Season 3 needs to happen so bad...