[BOOK SPOILERS] Biggest Gripes

[Anomandaris86]

Now that we've all had a chance to see the whole season, I think its time to go over our biggest complaints for the whole season. There are threads about what people liked the most, so I think there should be a thread about what people disliked as well.

Originally I wasn't planning to watch this series, but then when I saw the pilot on HBO free that weekend I became hooked and had to watch it. That pilot was pretty much perfect except for one thing (described below) and it gave lots of promise for the series. Then as I kept watching, the things that bothered me began to slowly pile up. Don't get me wrong; overall the series was great and its a very good adaptation. I enjoyed it. But I think they've definitely fucked up in a few places as well, and it would be dishonest not to talk about them.

So, there are some things which are inferior to the books but which seem unavoidable due to time and budget. Like, for instance, the crowd at the tourney or the small instances of the direwolves on screen, which is related to budget; or the lack of smaller details and the speed with which it moves through events, which is related to time. By and large I don't think those could have been helped. What I'm going to talk about are things I think COULD have been fixed based on the time and money that they had.

So here are my complaints, more or less in order of severity:

1) Battles. Or rather, the lack of them. Now I know this is related to budget, but the offense is simply too grevious to not mention. This has already been discussed to death in other threads, so I'll keep this brief. First off, examples of shows with smaller budgets have already been shown with decent battles. Second, the Whispering Wood would have been as easy and cheap as battles can get. A limited budget is a good excuse for not doing LOTR-wide shots. It's not an excuse for what they did. And even if they were completely maxed out on their budget when it came time for battles, they should have prioritized them over something else. IMO what they did was unexcusable, and it was definitely the low point of the series for me.

2) No Tower of Joy. Seriously. The only possible excuse would be that the scene isn't important at all, but really, what are the odds of that? In addition to giving hints about R+L, though, it also shows us what the Kingsguard oaths are supposed to be worth, which puts Ned's disdain of Jaime more in perspective. It would have been a short scene too.

3) Similar to the above, almost no info on the backstory of the rebellion and the chronology of it. It's a major event of the past, so I think they could have managed a few lines throughout to establish the details. Not even the viewer's guide gives any real information. There are still new viewers who think that Jaime tried to be king after killing Aerys, and that the Lannisters fought for the Targaryens and then switched sides at the last moment. This all could have easily been fixed, so I can only scratch my head at what they were thinking.

4) Numerous characters whose personalities were changed for no apparent reason:

-Theon. Probably the biggest change. In the books he was an asshole, cocky and arrogant. In the show he is a largely sympathetic character, trying to fit in and never being able to, and only somewhat of an asshole. Can you see show Theon kicking a head after an execution? Because I can't. We're supposed to believe that he could actually capable of killing Bran and Rickon. Even still, he DID kill two young boys and their mother, had killed the men who did the deed, and then executed a boyhood campanion for killing those men. How are D&D going to adequately portray those actions as in line with his character? IMO they can't.

-The Hound. Also more sympathetic in the show. My main gripe is the "He ran, but not very fast" line. In the show he simply mentions it in a deadpan, but in the books he dumps the body in front of Ned, calls him Arya's pet, and laughs in his face. Very different characters there. That was the moment in the book where I first thought, "Wow, these books don't fuck around." And in the series they tried to gloss over it as much as possible. When he puts a knife to Sansa's throat and says "Sing for your pretty little life" there's supposed to be real danger there. Also giving his speech about his scars to Littlefinger is puzzling. He'll have plenty of chances to go pedo later on. More Hound!

-Sansa. Just one thing: removing the fact that she betrated her father. They probably thought that it would make her too unsympathetic, but in the last episode we see Joffrey tormenting her and having her slapped around. The whole point of her character is that we more or less hate her in book 1, start to come around to her in books 2 and 3 as we see what she has to go through, and then finally get interested in her in book 4 as she starts to display some cunning and understanding of the game. At least that's how it was for me.

-Jaime. Just one scene, and contrary to the above examples it actually makes him LESS sympathetic. I'm talking about throwing Bran from the window. I re-read that scene after the episode, and in the books, he is holding Bran and then flings him, and says the line "with loathing." In the show he casually shoves him off even as he walks back to Cersei. In the books it's something he didn't want to do and it's something he actually feels somewhat guilty about, but in the show it looks like he couldn't give the slighest shit. Why?

-Shae. What the fuck. She goes from being a willing whore who calls Tyrion "her giant" to being an assertive, bitchy concubine who apparently was some kind of foreign aristocrat's daughter. I don't get it.

-Osha. This is more of a casting thing, i.e. she's too young. Martin said "their Osha is more interesting than my Osha," but I can't see what that is.

5) The King in the North scene. Way WAY too short. They only had a few lines and then went straight to the Greatjon's speech. It's important that the decision only comes after hours of discussion over all their options of what to do militarily and which king to declare support for. Obviously they couldn't have all of that, but they could have done a lot more. And while I'm sure new viewers will still like the scene, I don't think they'll undertand just how momentous the event is, and thus it lost some of its dramatic impact, when it was such an epic scene in the book. They also could have easily given the little backstory about Torhen, and how he knelt before Aegon the Conquerer and became the first Lord of Winterfell. In fact they could have added it to Bran's info dump in the crypt in that episode.

6) The Dothraki raid, simply the fact that the savagery of it was way toned down. In the books this was important because we've heard them described as savages, but since we only get them from Dany's POV we don't really know what that means, until this moment. Also an important lesson for Dany. And in a certain way GRRM is setting a trope on its head - namely the trope of the noble savages, which is prevalent in so much other fantasy. And apparently a lot viewers were believers of the trope as well, considering how many were apparently enamored of the Dothraki. This is HBO so I don't think it should have been censored the way it was.

And that pretty much sums it up. Agree/disagree? Also feel free to add your own complaints as well.

[ferthepoet]

I agree with most of your points except Theon, I think they did a good job on making him a more important character than he wasin the first book. I do not have many complaints with the series but the ones I have I think need to be addressed.

1. Battles, I understand the limitations of budget but I really think another bait and switch like episodes 8-9 could lead to non readers abandoning the show. All signs points to the Blackwater batlle being in shown in season 2 so seems like they are trying to address this point.

2. The unequal treatment of sex, I guess this may have something to actors and actresses willingness to go naked on screen, but its irritating that the longest (and loudest) sex scene in the show is between two whores nobody cares about. Danny/Drogo was done relatively well (except for the rapey nature of the first time) but Then Cersei/Jaime was so PG some people could not identify in the pilot who had Bran caught having sex with Jaime, Ned/Caitlin and Cersei/Lancel was not existent. I would be o.k with a show with no sex, but if they think they do need to have graphic sex in the show then it must be between the characters of the stories.

3. I hope they redeem themselves with a better portrayal of Renly/Loras in season 2 because in season one I felt like both characters were being derailed, specially Loras.

4. Better adult female casting, the show has been great casting children and male adults, but the female adults side of the cast is, comparatively weak, Caitlin and Dany and her handmaidens (Doreah and Irri) are o.k but I do not like what the show has done with Cersei at all, I love Lena Heady but I think she is miscast as Cersei she would have been great as someone like Asha Greyjoy, Shae is plain horrible and did not even seem like the same character in her two episodes, Ros is not even good at simulating sex, I do not think the actress they've cast for season 2 is good for Margaery, so I'm still hoping at least we get good casting choices for Asha and Brienne

[Ran]

Nothing said so far requires me noting this, but I'll note it for those who come after as something to think about: please be respectful of the hard work and effort of all involved in the project, especially the executive producers/writers David Benioff & Dan Weiss. Constructive criticism is great because it's something that one can build on and improve with, and there's very few creative endeavors -- especially endeavors of this magnitude, with so many people, so much money, and so much consequent pressure -- that can't go uncriticized.

But lacing it with rudeness or sarcasm or out-right hatred takes away the constructiveness of it. So, stay constructive, please.

[julandro]

2. The unequal treatment of sex, I guess this may have something to actors and actresses willingness to go naked on screen, but its irritating that the longest (and loudest) sex scene in the show is between two whores nobody cares about. Danny/Drogo was done relatively well (except for the rapey nature of the first time) but Then Cersei/Jaime was so PG some people could not identify in the pilot who had Bran caught having sex with Jaime, Ned/Caitlin and Cersei/Lancel was not existent. I would be o.k with a show with no sex, but if they think they do need to have graphic sex in the show then it must be between the characters of the stories.

I totally agree with you. The series will necessary to have more sexual content among the major characters. In that respect, I was a little disappointed. The scenes with dicks, asses, do not impress much. Already, the series has harsh things to see, but I think the creators have tried to be softer than the series "True Blood" and "Spartacus"! Why?

In an interview he did with Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, he responded to a question on nudity. He spoke his character had a scene Cersei shared with his sister, and she was naked. What happened to that scene? I do not want to imagine the cuts that had to suffer the series.

[Wouter]

Regarding Sansa, remember that she is 2 years older in the show compared to the books - and that GRRM himself wrote the episode in which Sansa did not go to Cersei, as she did at the same point in the books. This was apparently a very deliberate change (obviously GRRM approved as he wrote it) possibly because 11 year old Sansa running to Cersei is more believable/understandable/forgiveable than 13 year old Sansa doing the same, especially since Sophie Turner is so tall that her Sansa hardly even looks 13.

But on the other hand, the episodes before that were also changed to make Sansa more unsympathetic than in the books. Many viewers of the series who haven't read the books think Sansa is rude and bratty. Whereas in the books, Sansa was snobbish and childish but also practically always extremely courteous (except to Arya), something which was hardly shown in the series. The conversation with Septa Mordane ("I don't care") would have been especially out of character for book Sansa and did her no favours with the audience ("what a bitch" being the usual reaction). So, it seems that one change compensates for the other.

As for what I didn't like in the series: less Ros and "sexposition", please.

[julandro]

Regarding Sansa, remember that she is 2 years older in the show compared to the books - and that GRRM himself wrote the episode in which Sansa did not go to Cersei, as she did at the same point in the books. This was apparently a very deliberate change (obviously GRRM approved as he wrote it) possibly because 11 year old Sansa running to Cersei is more believable/understandable/forgiveable than 13 year old Sansa doing the same, especially since Sophie Turner is so tall that her Sansa hardly even looks 13.

But on the other hand, the episodes before that were also changed to make Sansa more unsympathetic than in the books. Many viewers of the series who haven't read the books think Sansa is rude and bratty. Whereas in the books, Sansa was snobbish and childish but also practically always extremely courteous (except to Arya), something which was hardly shown in the series. The conversation with Septa Mordane ("I don't care") would have been especially out of character for book Sansa and did her no favours with the audience ("what a bitch" being the usual reaction). So, it seems that one change compensates for the other.

As for what I didn't like in the series: less Ros and "sexposition", please.

No please. Why do not you want to see more sex? I do not understand. It is so important to life that needs to be shown in this medieval fantasy world, dark place. There are normal people who just want to see a history of talking characters and conspiring. Well, I is demanding more from a series authenticated. I'm not saying it has to be pornographic.

About Ros, I agree. But I want there to be more "sexposition" with the important characters.

[sailor]

Good post. I think Jaime is changed more than just in the thing you mention. Also Ned is subtly different. He is a very conventional 'veteran, been-through grizzly' type hero in the series. (The show relies on a cliche to introduce him, it is pretty clear.) I'm struggling for the right words here but in the books his somber, quiet, reflective and anti-fun side is even more emphasized and is all the more remarkable because he is relatively young. He didn't dance with Ashara Dayne until Brandon asked her for him, he disliks tourneys on general principles and Dany believes him to be a man with a heart of ice who never smiles. He isn't necessarily a charismatic person, at least until you get to know him.

For me the way in which they changed personalities of some characters is the biggest gripe with the show. How I get over is that I remind myself it is just one possible adaptation.

[CryFenril]

GRRM's level of sexual contact was perfectly appropriate in the books, IMHO. I don't see the need to expand on it any further, or cut it back for propriety's sake.

Indulging in extra contact for the main characters would come across to me like a bit of pandering to the "shipper" fans, who strike me as slightly less mature than the average reader (as a whole, and I mean no offense to anyone by that comment, so please don't burn me alive).

[julandro]

The creators have done very well. They have allowed some lincencias for a change the character of some characters, but I see that all very normal. The book is not the same as the TV series.

[sailor]

They have allowed some lincencias for a change the character of some characters, but I see that all very normal.

Changes for the worse, or for the better? I am fine with changes that improve things, but I liked the book Ned and Jaime (and the dynamic between them) better.

[sailor]

3. I hope they redeem themselves with a better portrayal of Renly/Loras in season 2 because in season one I felt like both characters were being derailed, specially Loras.

Good point. To my mind Renly has been changed the most of any characters in the book, and not for the better.

[julandro]

Changes for the worse, or for the better? I am fine with changes that improve things, but I liked the book Ned and Jaime (and the dynamic between them) better.

Yours is an opinion. As you well know, the first season is just the beginning. Jaime evolve for the better. I hope I am not mistaken.

[julandro]

Understand that it is very difficult to calcar all the characters from book to TV. Renly may disappoint many people, but I think the evolution of the characters in the following seasons will be an important factor in the series.

[sailor]

Yours is an opinion. As you well know, the first season is just the beginning. Jaime evolve for the better. I hope I am not mistaken.

I know it is an opinion. I am asking you yours. Did you like the changes?

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Good point. To my mind Renly has been changed the most of any characters in the book, and not for the better.

I think (hope?) the next time we see Renly he will be just as confident and self-assured as we see him in the book, and very much changed from the Renly in S1. He'll have been pumped up (lol) by the Tyrells, now a King instead of the King's nobody little brother. Maybe we'll still see some of the uncertainness beneath the surface, but I think that makes the character actually more interesting than the book version.

In interviews Genthin Anthony now has much longer hair (and looks much better IMO). I hope that's because they asked him to grow it out for season 2 so he looks more like Book Renly. Perhaps that's what they had in mind all along by having it so short in S1 - emphasize his transformation into King Renly.

We'd better see some praying, damn it.

[Xanderpanda]

I think (hope?) the next time we see Renly he will be just as confident and self-assured as we see him in the book, and very much changed from the Renly in S1. He'll have been pumped up (lol) by the Tyrells, now a King instead of the King's nobody little brother. Maybe we'll still see some of the uncertainness beneath the surface, but I think that makes the character actually more interesting than the book version.

In interviews Genthin Anthony now has much longer hair (and looks much better IMO). I hope that's because they asked him to grow it out for season 2 so he looks more like Book Renly. Perhaps that's what they had in mind all along by having it so short in S1 - emphasize his transformation into King Renly.

We'd better see some praying, damn it.

I'm still upset that Robert got his snarky line about Joffery letting a girl disarm him in episode 2. That part in the book made me love Renly straight away.

[Turinqui-Calima]

-Theon. Probably the biggest change. In the books he was an asshole, cocky and arrogant. In the show he is a largely sympathetic character, trying to fit in and never being able to, and only somewhat of an asshole. Can you see show Theon kicking a head after an execution? Because I can't. We're supposed to believe that he could actually capable of killing Bran and Rickon. Even still, he DID kill two young boys and their mother, had killed the men who did the deed, and then executed a boyhood campanion for killing those men. How are D&D going to adequately portray those actions as in line with his character? IMO they can't.

I actually really liked TV Theon. In the books Robb and Theon are close and I don't think a stand-up guy like Robb would be close friends with a complete asshole. If we didn't see Theon as a somewhat sympathetic carachter in Season 1, next seasons 'betrayl' wouldn't be surprising and wouldn't have the same effect.

My biggest gripe are the two Varys/Littlefinger scenes where they talk waaaaay too much. Why oh why would Littlefinger and Varys talk to eachother like that? The worst line to me is when Littlefinger says something about Varys meeting 'a certain foreign dignitary' (not sure his exact words). I do not think Littlefinger knows about Varys alliance with Illyrio and I don't like that it was implied he did.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

My biggest gripe are the two Varys/Littlefinger scenes where they talk waaaaay too much. Why oh why would Littlefinger and Varys talk to eachother like that? The worst line to me is when Littlefinger says something about Varys meeting 'a certain foreign dignitary' (not sure his exact words). I do not think Littlefinger knows about Varys alliance with Illyrio and I don't like that it was implied he did.

I loved the first scene they had together, but the second one I agree completely. While the first scene I thought was a reasonably subtle feeling out between the two great players, the second one was decidedly not. And what was with all that talk about Varys' "GASH"? UGH. :stillsick:

[CryFenril]

My biggest gripe are the two Varys/Littlefinger scenes where they talk waaaaay too much. Why oh why would Littlefinger and Varys talk to eachother like that? The worst line to me is when Littlefinger says something about Varys meeting 'a certain foreign dignitary' (not sure his exact words). I do not think Littlefinger knows about Varys alliance with Illyrio and I don't like that it was implied he did.

I actually liked that scene best of all of their interactions - each was trying to shake or wound the other, and neither one would back down. It was a power struggle, and I think D&D threw in the "foreign dignitaries" line to reiterate that Varys isn't the only one who has little birds in the city - but perhaps Petyr's birds follow a slightly less savory profession...

[julandro]

I know it is an opinion. I am asking you yours. Did you like the changes?

Sorry for taking long to respond. My opinion is clear such as crystal waters. Jaime, as far as it goes, have created a decent character. Could be better, but I'm nobody. In my humble opinion, I think the creators have done a spectacular job. If they had carbon copy to perfection all the characters, I'm sure things would not be perfect. does not exist perfection!