Sansa, Arya and feminism

[the andorran]

I hope this demonstrates that issues of gender, though certainly present in the book (it's about middle ages, for god's sake) do not play a role as fundamental and pivotal as you might imagine.

I'm going to assume that you're male, because I can't imagine any woman making the arguments that you just did. But I seriously have to say, you really think that the unhappiness caused by marital politics is equal?

Certainly I feel sorry for Robert in his marriage to Cersei, but it's in no way equal to what she has to endure. Robert is free to have as many affairs as he likes (he has, what, seven confirmed bastards?) and the consequences for him are minimal. The consequences for Cersei's affair? Even if it hadn't caused a civil war, whatever happened to her would have been dire. She very well might have lost her life if things had played out the way that Ned had wanted.

Robb and Joffrey lost their lives due to poor political maneuvering. Marriage played a part in it, but, as Lady Blackfish said, would a woman been given the option to reject an arrangement like Robb was? I doubt it. Joffrey and Robb were both threats in ways that went far beyond their marriage choices.

The pressures put on noble children with regards to marital alliances, politics, and other expectations are surely difficult. But I find it difficult to feel bad for noble men based on the pressures of their position in society. They gain so many other privileges -- the right to wealth, to power, even to always having food on your table -- I just can't feel pity for them in that regard. Particularly when the women are forced into the same situations with less say in the matter, less freedom to cultivate relationships outside their marriage, and now the threat of rape hanging over their head.

[Olenna]

Surviving isn't everything. Refusing to be bowed or broken is what should be valued. If you die for it, so be it.

Sansa on the other hand is meek and pliable. And THAT is intolerable.

This, to me, demonstrates the fundamental assumption of those who love Arya and hate Sansa: that someone who refuses to compromise is superior to someone who compromises. But why should this superiority be assumed? What's wrong with compromising if it gets satisfactory results--in Sansa's case, survival, friendship, and better treatment for the vulnerable people in her environs? Why is someone meek and pliable automatically intolerable? Meek and pliable people in real life are often diplomatic, intelligent, and able to deal with situations quietly in ways that don't involve grandstanding or making enemies. No, they aren't assertive heroic types, but they are often just as effective.

[Raksha the Demon]

Joffrey lost his life because his bride's intelligent and powerful grandmother didn't want her precious Margaery marrying a monster. The Tyrells wanted to ally with the Iron Throne, but the Queen of Thorns obviously had the foresight and cleverness to check out the rumors of Joffrey's imperfection, then arrange for his assassination, knowing that Joffrey had a younger and more amiable brother who could also make Margaery the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. If Joffrey had been a decent sort of person, or at least less obviously vicious, I think the wedding would not have ended with the bridegroom's death. So it wasn't just a political marriage that triggered the plot to assassinate Joffrey, it was his own appalling behavior and a grandmother's concern for her grand-daughter's well-being. The Tyrells do get major points for pulling it all off, despite my disgust at their using Sansa as an unwitting and crucial accomplice.

[Sixshells]

The reason that Sansa could be the one to bring down Littlefinger is that he does prize her above many others, she is valuable to him, she embodies many of his strongest 'issues'. I don't think Littlefinger values Sansa more than his own life or prosperity; but if he goes to far with her, does something she cannot bear, she might be able to veil her rage and wait for the right time to take revenge on him.

I think anothre reason why she could rather easily bring him down is, her presence incognito is a strategic double-edged sword. It's useful to him because it serves his plot of using her to strengthen his agenda in the Vale via the offer of marriage between Harry the Heir and the lady of Winterfell. But his only advantage lies in that only he and a few other peope belonging to him know about her true identity. Were it to be revealed in an untimely fasion, it would reveal him as a traitor to the Crown, and also reveal his plot to take up the Vale. I'm not even sure that it would automatically result in Sansa being in more danger than she is at the end of AFFC, depending of how it unfolds.

This, to me, demonstrates the fundamental assumption of those who love Arya and hate Sansa: that someone who refuses to compromise is superior to someone who compromises. But why should this superiority be assumed? What's wrong with compromising if it gets satisfactory results--in Sansa's case, survival, friendship, and better treatment for the vulnerable people in her environs? Why is someone meek and pliable automatically intolerable? Meek and pliable people in real life are often diplomatic, intelligent, and able to deal with situations quietly in ways that don't involve grandstanding or making enemies. No, they aren't assertive heroic types, but they are often just as effective.

We even have a blatant example of that in Littlefinger, a rather well-appreciated character, also displaying meekness, courtesy and adaptability, butquite useless when sheer force is required.

[Mansiago]

Alright, so to answer some posts I'll say the following.

Arya does get some help, but I think that's normal. Wasn't the Night's Watch desertor that Ned kills at the start of AGOT caught by his soldiers? Does Arya need to be fully independent and to do everything by her own? I don't think so. The difference between Arya and Sansa is that if Arya is given a chance to fight, escape, kill or sth like that she does it and doesn't panic. That's something more like a Sansa behaviour. And, as someone has already said, is Arya who plans to escape from Harrenhal and even kills a man to do it.

And it's true that Arya wouldn't survive in Sansa's story and neither Sansa in Arya's story. But it's a book, GRRM wouldn't create those characters just to die fast and without having done nothing.

But i like both Arya and Sansa.

And Sansa is more like Catelyn or Cersei. If we think 'bout Cersei's childhood, she was like Sansa when she was young, specially concerning the 'being naive' issue. Because at first I thought that Sansa was stupid, but she's only naive. All the kids like Knights and Ladies story's, and when they (like me) grow up see how were the Knights and Kings from Feudal age. And that's what happens to Sansa, the difference with us is that she's living a real Knight's and Ladies story. But as many people, I started to like her story from AFFO not because she is with Littlefinger but because what she's living and learning with him.

Arya is like Asha, Brienne or Osha. She likes fighting and having a man's live, but without forgetting how is to be a girl. I like the Arya story because it's like an adventure story, but I got bored of travelling and travelling without a destination, or with a changing destination. So want something important to happen on her life. Something like Bran is having (all the third eye thing) or sth like Sansa is having, I don't care.

But what I think will be more important in the next three books are the Wolfs, because Bran, Rickon, John and Robb stayed always with their wolves and started to have the wolves dream and that kind of things. But Sansa's wolf is dead and Arya's is 'lost'. I'm sure that where is each oneand what happened to them means something to the real and main story.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

I'll second the post that mentioned we have no idea where Arya story is going. Of the main protagonists her story feels the most up in the air to me. It could end in so many ways, most of them tragic unfortunately.

On the other hand Sansa seems to have a much clearer character trajectory (being taught by Littlefinger, outsmarting him, and un-doing many of the injustices he caused).

Mother of Cliches wouldn't even begin to describe this scenario. Oh look, the 13 year old dim wit takes revenge for her father and mother on the 40+ year old man who betrayed them. The guy who bandied words with Tywin, Varys, Cersei, Olenna Tyrell etc.

And some guy said GRRM is the BEST fantasy writer around and whose writing DROPPED TO Tolkien levels.

Yeah, I am also the Prince who was Promised.

[Raksha the Demon]

I can see Sansa getting revenge on Littlefinger, perhaps not at 13, but in a year or two or more; but only because Littlefinger has a lot more invested in Sansa, emotionally, then he ever did in Tywin, Varys, Cersei etc. If she could conceal her intent, and surprise him, Sansa would have a considerable, if brief, advantage over him.

I believe that GRRM is an outstanding writer, but I think Tolkien is a better writer. At the level both authors are at, it's not that easy to qualify a hierarchy; and much rests on individual perception and opinion.

[Olenna]

Mother of Cliches wouldn't even begin to describe this scenario. Oh look, the 13 year old dim wit takes revenge for her father and mother on the 40+ year old man who betrayed them. The guy who bandied words with Tywin, Varys, Cersei, Olenna Tyrell etc.

Actually this wouldn't be a cliché at all, given that there are very few protagonists like Sansa and very few relationships like Sansa/Littlefinger in fantasy.

Also, Sansa does not have to outsmart Littlefinger to defeat him. He is already making the huge mistake of telling her his plans. He may be the cleverest plotter in the Seven Kingdoms but he's foolish where she is concerned, and she may well find some way to exploit that. It wouldn't be the first time in the story that a very smart guy was brought down by a less smart woman, simply because he was infatuated with her and told her too much.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

I can see Sansa getting revenge on Littlefinger, perhaps not at 13, but in a year or two or more; but only because Littlefinger has a lot more invested in Sansa, emotionally, then he ever did in Tywin, Varys, Cersei etc. If she could conceal her intent, and surprise him, Sansa would have a considerable, if brief, advantage over him.

I believe that GRRM is an outstanding writer, but I think Tolkien is a better writer. At the level both authors are at, it's not that easy to qualify a hierarchy; and much rests on individual perception and opinion.

Exactly my point. It is pointless to compare those two because they are from a different time period with different kinds of books and a different style of writing. Which is why I get irritated when some GRRM fanatic comes into the board saying ZOMG LOL GRRM OWNZ TOLKIEN .... MWUHAAAHAHAHAA.

Actually this wouldn't be a cliché at all, given that there are very few protagonists like Sansa and very few relationships like Sansa/Littlefinger in fantasy.

Also, Sansa does not have to outsmart Littlefinger to defeat him. He is already making the huge mistake of telling her his plans. He may be the cleverest plotter in the Seven Kingdoms but he's foolish where she is concerned, and she may well find some way to exploit that. It wouldn't be the first time in the story that a very smart guy was brought down by a less smart woman, simply because he was infatuated with her and told her too much.

The above two points are fair enough in that the only way Sansa could outsmart LF is by making him underestimate her. I want to make it clear that I don't mind reading her POVs in the future IF they lead somewhere and are not just a rumination on sexuality of Westeros women. Martin should use appendices or novellas for that sort of thing.

Oh how I wish for either a Margaery/Olenna Tyrell POV.

[Ame]

Whoever said men have as many troubles with the Westerosi Marriage system as women really don't understand one thing.

Men benefit and the system exists for their political and economic benefit; women get nothing at all from marriage. In the case of Lyanna eloping with Rhaegar she got love (assuming it happened that way and I think it did) but most of the time it is to a complete stranger and that is just a coincidence if it happened.

Robert did not get just misery from his wedding to Cersei; he got a massive political benefit. Men get a new servant/slave, men get a massive dowry which is their property (Robert included), they get a son and heir to carry on their name, even if they get no companionship the slave is disobedient or they get no heir they still will always get their political tie and dowry. Women receive nothing and have no stake in the political games beyond not getting killed in the marriage system which is why

Asha Greyjoy was married off to some irrelevant old man and now will be trying to avoid the Iron Islands

Marriage really is a man's game in Westeros.

Also Sansa worships LF in AFfC; and is as ready to agree to his openly political ideas for her future as she was with Ned so something dramatic would have to be revealed to her to see her turn on LF.

[Wouter]

And some guy said GRRM is the BEST fantasy writer around and whose writing DROPPED TO Tolkien levels.

Yeah, I am also the Prince who was Promised.

You read rather more like prince Joffrey II, to me.

Tolkien is not sacred, I prefer ASOIAF greatly to the Lord of the Rings. Martin's characters get much more emotional response from me.

Ame; where do you get the impression that Sansa "worships" LF in AFFC? Because she wants him to be on hand to deal with difficult situations like with Sweetrobin and with the lords of the Vale?

Actually, in AFFC Sansa still has a mixture of fear, admiration, unease (with his advancements) and gratitude for him. She is well aware that "Littlefinger didn't lift as much as his little finger" for her in KL, when she meets Bronze Yohn she considers throwing herself at him for protection (though she doesn't dare to, as she thinks he didn't even help Robb why would he help her?) and her reaction to his proposal at the end seems to lack any enthusiasm. When LF says he has arranged a marriage for her, the prospect obviously did not make her happy, and what Sansa will do about his plans re: Harry and Sweetrobin remains an unknown and probably will be until TWOW. LF himself shows his disappointment over her lack of enthusiasm (be it for kisses or marriage arrangements) quite a few times. Moreover, when LF drops something like "the 3 queens", he doesn't trust her enough to say more and Sansa, interestingly, doesn't care or dare to ask more - realising that he isn't going to say more if he doesn't offer it spontaneously. With her real father, she would have insisted on being told more, I think, but then she wasn't afraid of Eddard.

Their relationship is strange, but neither "worships" the other IMO. Sansa is half afraid of him, and aware she can turn nowhere else, and he may like her to some point but there seems to be limits on how far he is willing to go.

[Early Earl]

"Stereotype" is just a modern buzzword which does not do any kind of justice to Martin's complex characers. Neither Arya nor Sansa is any kind of "stereotype", and I'd warn you against using this bubblehead-speak lightly.

Thanks for the warning. I did write in one of my earlier posts though that I realize how credible and rounded up charackters GRRM creates for us. My initial question was whether (1)those quite different (we agree on different, I hope?) description of two girls, brought up in similiar surroundings and (2) the fact that one of the girls seems more liked than the other arouses questions if GRRM is making a statement about the role of females in general. After reading all those posts with all those different opininons I say no, because:

My personal opinion is that people looking for "political connotations" and "stereotypes" are more often than not projecting their very limited viewpoint and trying to fit the book onto the narrow rack of their own set of pre-fabricated notions, instead of approaching with an open mind and appreciating the characters for what they are, not what you want them to be.

No matter if it's "limited", but everyone has rightfully their own perspective. If not a majority comes to the same conclusion, you can't say that there's a moral or political statement made. At the least it would be too vague to be taken "seriously".

And to respond to your latent accusation, you are right: my pre-fabricated notion is that stitching and making small-talk with men and being most concerned about looking pretty for me is a rather a 60s-thing to do for a girl.

[Manfryd Lothston]

While both men and women are limited by the Westerosi marriage system, I don't think they are limited equally. Robert and Cersei are both in an unhappy marriage, but Cersei is the one who is beat up and forced to have sex when she doesn't want to. It's difficult to see this happening as often with the genders reversed. It's, of course, an extension of biology, but biology does inform enough about gender roles.

Robb, interestingly, was asked if he accepted the arrangement his mother made for him. Edmure was also given an option to refuse. It's hard for me to think that nearly as many women would be given that

Of course, it would be silly to say men and women are equal in Westeros. As I said, it's supposed to be a medieval society, not well-known for human rights and in particular rights of women.

However, the question was whether GRRM's female characters being "forced into traditional

gender roles" had a huge impact on them. I hope I've demonstrated rather conclusively that in

most of the cited examples the men were as much forced to do something (marriage etc) as the women, and that women who wanted to play other roles than the demure maid, the faithful wife or the loving mother had ample opportunity to do so. Society accepted Cersei as Queen Regent, Brienne as a knight, Ygritte as a warrior, Arya as an assassin, Asha is an Ironborn lord captain, Melisandre as a fearsome sorceress, Dany as a leader and future queen. In fact, the only prominent female character who does sort of fit into a traditional gender stereotype is Sansa, and she actually wants to play that role. And even as a lady of the court a woman can have great political power, as Lady Olenna's example clearly shows ( she basically controls her entire House and all their vassals from behind the scenes).

sometimes they may have had to struggle for recognition more than if they were male, but eventually they got what they wanted and were quite successful in their "non-traditional" gender roles. In the end, it's what the character wants to be that matters, and not his or her gender. And this is just as true of men as of women in GRRM books. Theon has to struggle with his

Stark upbringing, Sam Tarly with his weak character, Jon with his bastard status etc etc, not to speak of the more tragic consequences of Westeros politics. So with all said and done, gender takes a second or third stage to the more prominent circumstances.

[Iotun]

Again with the projecting of "modern values" on a supposedly medieval society. Let's look at your examples and see whether "enforced gender roles" really matter so much:

The same was true of Robert: he loved Lyanna, did not care about Cersei, and all he got of the marriage was bitterness, resentment & eventually death.

Robb Stark: forced to marry a Frey girl he doesn't care about for political purposes; marrying a girl he loves leads to, you guessed it, death.

Joffrey: can you say bitterness and resentment towards Sansa Stark? And in the end, again, death over a marriage.

And many more examples. It's not the gender, it's the nobility status which makes marriage a political tool rather than a means to achieve personal happiness.

Cersei often laments that she wasn't born with a dick, but truth be told, had she been a man she'd probably be little better than Joffrey.

And similarly RHAEGAR and ROBERT had to wed women they did not love. It's called POLITICS, not "gender roles".

Nor Petyr was allowed to marry them, and was in fact kicked out of Riverrun after losing a duel to Brandon Stark.

Similarly Tyrion is punished for marrying a woman BELOW his station. And then punished AGAIN when he falls for a whore.

1. As Theon himself notes in his chapter, there are Ironborn women who sail the seas alongside men, and captain ships. This is not considered inappropriate.

2. Laws of succession are what they are, "gender roles" notwithstanding; Theon was the rightful heir, and his father "favoring" Asha as a heir would be the same as if Balon "favored" a younger son instead of Theon.

3. Asha has a very aggravating personality, it's no wonder Theon isn't much fond of her.

4. All in all, although Asha's gender does get mentioned, it's only the icing on the cake, the real reasons for Theon's distress are deeper and more serious. Mainly he feels unaccepted by the Ironborn society as a whole, and his father in particular, due to the 10-year absence and him not being up to Ironborn standards.

So as you can see, all your examples have little to nothing to do with "forced gender roles", and just show how misapplied contemporary "values" are to historical settings.

Dany cherished and reveled in her role as Khaleesi, and when time came used it perfectly well to her own ends.

Brienne had little trouble taking up arms and becoming a knight. She was trained by a knight, knighted, and accepted into a king's personal guard. Her troubles have a lot to do with her being extremely ugly, which played tricks with her self-esteem and how others treated her; but in terms of gender roles, she played a man with great success.

Jon is being shamed because he's a Night Watchman who took celibacy vows. Oh, and never was in love with a girl before.

Arya and Sansa both got what they wanted from the society. Sansa wanted to be a proper maid, and so she was. Arya wanted to run around and fight, and so she got a "dancing master" and then got accepted into an elite assassin academy.

I hope this demonstrates that issues of gender, though certainly present in the book (it's about middle ages, for god's sake) do not play a role as fundamental and pivotal as you might imagine.

I don't get your point - so you are basically answering my examples of things occuring because of the limitations of gender roles, with more examples, but from a male perspective. Gender roles and relationships may have been created because of politics, or of society, or of the expectations of social status, whatever. I'm neither claiming that the books are a discussion on feminism, nor lamenting the suffering of women. What I'm saying is that individuals in Westeros are expected to take up roles, carry out actions and form relationships dictated for their gender, with one gender typically having much more power that the other, and with much of this gender expectations lead to the development of the story. Yes, the reason these gender roles are created can be for politics, or because of social class, so what? How are 'gender roles' a 'projection of modern values'? Gender roles just 'are'. They are as much a modern value as 'trees' or 'clouds'.

[Breakspear]

Cersei often laments that she wasn't born with a dick, but truth be told, had she been a man she'd probably be little better than Joffrey.

I think this is a very wrongheaded statement to make. Had Cersei been born a man, her entire life would have been different. She would have never been frustrated at the limitations placed on her, never envied her brothers the way she did. She thirsted for power her whole life, but could only ever possess it through a male proxy. You have to admit that she is very bothered by that. I personally believe that Cersei's gender issues are one of the major influences on her adult personality.

Were she born male, I'd wager that Tywin would have rewarded her ambition and ruthlessness with increased responsibility and, given his character, there is no doubt in my mind that he would have guided and mentored an ambitious son very closely. Bear in mind that Cersei was never groomed to rule, she was supposed to be a wife. For all we know, Cersei was as ignorant as Sansa when she first arrrived at court (though I doubt it). What GRRM has shown repeatedly is that the noble women of the Seven Kingdoms are often sheltered to a disabling degree.

I guess what I'm saying is that if Cersei was male, she wouldn't be Cersei at all.

[Manfryd Lothston]

No matter if it's "limited", but everyone has rightfully their own perspective. If not a majority comes to the same conclusion, you can't say that there's a moral or political statement made. At the least it would be too vague to be taken "seriously".

And to respond to your latent accusation, you are right: my pre-fabricated notion is that stitching and making small-talk with men and being most concerned about looking pretty for me is a rather a 60s-thing to do for a girl.

See, you're talking about 1960's, when we should be talking about the 1360's. You have to take into consideration the six to eight centuries' difference in development of civilization and society between Earth and Westeros.

Also, you're definitely fitting Stansa into your own "stereotypical" image. Sansa does things she likes, some of which include dressing prettily and talking about courtly matters. She's a 13 year old girl in a medieval setting, why can't she want to be a beautiful princess and marry a handsome prince? But she's also smart, sensitive, knowledgeable and becomes a reasonably good judge of character. Her social skills and noble upbringing serve her well at court and in the Eyrie. Being a successful noblewoman is a "career choice" in a medieval society which is no less respectable than being a knight, sea captain, hunter or assassin, and Sansa does not deserve the narrow label of a "stereotype".

As to the reason ffor more people generally liking Arya than Stansa, I'd say it's largely because people want to read about adventure when they read high fantasy epics, and Sansa's tale is much more grounded and psychological, whereas Arya provides action and adventure. Personally, I like the Sansa chapters very much and appreciate her character.

Regarding Martin making any sort of "political" statement, IMO he does, but it is much wider and more humanistic than the narrow concepts of stereotypes and gender roles. His message is about human nature and human history in general, and his characters are multilayered and complex enough to not fit into any preconceived straitjackets.

[mormont]

Robb and Joffrey lost their lives due to poor political maneuvering. Marriage played a part in it, but, as Lady Blackfish said, would a woman been given the option to reject an arrangement like Robb was? I doubt it.

No need for the hypothetical. The very same agreement that saw Robb asked to accept a betrothal to a Frey included Arya marrying Elmar Frey as well. But there never seems to have been any thought given to the question of whether Arya should be consulted, either by Robb or by Cat.

And Sansa is more like Catelyn or Cersei. If we think 'bout Cersei's childhood, she was like Sansa when she was young, specially concerning the 'being naive' issue.

I'm not sure where this comes from? Was Cersei ever naive? Was Cat, for that matter?

Society accepted Cersei as Queen Regent, Brienne as a knight, Ygritte as a warrior, Arya as an assassin, Asha is an Ironborn lord captain, Melisandre as a fearsome sorceress, Dany as a leader and future queen.

In fact, the majority of Brienne's plotline concerns the fact that society does not accept her as a knight. This lack of acceptance defines her, in many ways. Meanwhile, Asha is accepted as a captain - but firmly rejected as a potential ruler on the grounds that she is a woman. Cersei and Dany occupy leadership roles, but frequently encounter people who don't take them seriously because of their sex. Ygritte and Melisandre, I'll give you, but the others have plotlines very much concerned with gender issues.

[Raksha the Demon]

Both Arya and Sansa, by the end of AFFC, have survived very difficult times, often as the results of their own efforts and often as a result of the protection of others. I am not sure that either girl would have survived totally on their own; both being very young, still children, at the end of AGoT. The sisters are camouflaged by new identities, and in rather emotionally precarious situations at the end of AFFC, both being mentored by people of dubious morality, for different and possibly sinister purposes. Arya is being trained as some kind of future mystic ninja, and while she relishes the adventure, she resists the Kindly Man's attempt to bury her Stark memories and make her a blank slate for their training. And she's just been blinded. Sansa has been directed to pretend to be "Alayne Storm", illegitimate daughter of her rescuer Petyr Baelish. What's especially interesting in Sansa's case is that she seems to find the identity of Alayne somewhat liberating, she can be "bastard brave", and she has come to think of herself as Alayne.

What makes Sansa's situation creepy and emotionally disturbing is that she is calling Baelish "Father", and he begins by setting himself up in a paternal role with her, then he kisses her out of nowhere, triggering her near-murder by his enraged wife, and the murder of Lysa and framing of Marillion for it; and continues to coerce non-paternal kisses from her. I am not sure that Baelish is deliberately trying to seduce Sansa; first he tells her that they must always be father and daughter in case servants overhear or interrupt them, and then he is kissing her on the lips. And if there is anything more disturbing than Baelish cold-bloodedly plotting to make Catelyn's daughter his own and then to reveal her as Sansa Stark and make her Lady of the Vale and Lady of Winterfell, it is Baelish seemingly losing, or at least lessening, control over his own desires. I hate to think what might happen as Sansa continues to physically mature; because I am not certain that Baelish will not go farther into physical/sexual seduction when Sansa is closer to full womanhood.

Both sisters are in temporarily safe but also potentially quite precarious situations. But they can't strike out on their own because they are still too young to survive without friends or family. Arya is 11, and could never make it to the Wall on her own; especially now that she is blind - though I assume that is a temporary condition. Sansa is 13, and accused of complicity in the killing of a king, high treason; she can't leave the safety of Baelish's protection and the identity of Alayne Stone, even if she had somewhere to go. But both Stark sisters have demonstrated skill and intelligence in surviving great dangers; and they will only become stronger in the next few years, as they grow closer to maturity. Arya has learned to kill, lie, control herself when necessary, and accept help when necessary. Sansa has learned that the world is not a song of chivalry, and is starting to look beneath the surface of situations and people.

[Wouter]

Sansa has probably good reasons to like being "Alayne": as Sansa Stark, everybody she knew/loved is dead and gone, she is hunted by the Lannisters for supposed regicide, everybody she meets seems to want to use her for her claim on Winterfel - something that Sansa clearly resents. Sansa also has very bad experiences with bethrotals and marriages (Joffrey, Willas, Tyrion, Sweetrobyn - and now possibly Harry).

Alayne is not terribly important, and as such seems to fly under the radar of people like the Lannisters. Nobody wants to use her for her claim, because Alayne doesn't have any claim as bastard. Alayne has friends like Mya Stone, someone Sansa probably would have looked down on in AGOT, but which she now seems to appreciate because she is honest and nothing like the vipers in the court at KL. Alayne doesn't have to marry at all - at least until LF comes up with Harry (which doesn't seem to please Sansa much). If not for creepy Littlefinger and the ever present threat of being found out, Sansa would probably be happy for an indefinite period at the Gates of the Moon.

To answer Mormont's question: we know that Cersei was nothing like Sansa at a very young age already - her interactions with Tyrion (as told by the red viper) and her recollection of the Maggy the Frog incident show that she was already much like we see her in the books. As for Catelyn, her treatment of Petyr also shows that she was relatively hard and somewhat cynical already when she was promised to Brandon Stark. Seems it was all family, duty, honor and little room for romantic feelings.

[Iotun]

Of course, it would be silly to say men and women are equal in Westeros. As I said, it's supposed to be a medieval society, not well-known for human rights and in particular rights of women.

However, the question was whether GRRM's female characters being "forced into traditional

gender roles" had a huge impact on them. I hope I've demonstrated rather conclusively that in

most of the cited examples the men were as much forced to do something (marriage etc) as the women, and that women who wanted to play other roles than the demure maid, the faithful wife or the loving mother had ample opportunity to do so. Society accepted Cersei as Queen Regent, Brienne as a knight, Ygritte as a warrior, Arya as an assassin, Asha is an Ironborn lord captain, Melisandre as a fearsome sorceress, Dany as a leader and future queen. In fact, the only prominent female character who does sort of fit into a traditional gender stereotype is Sansa, and she actually wants to play that role. And even as a lady of the court a woman can have great political power, as Lady Olenna's example clearly shows ( she basically controls her entire House and all their vassals from behind the scenes).

sometimes they may have had to struggle for recognition more than if they were male, but eventually they got what they wanted and were quite successful in their "non-traditional" gender roles. In the end, it's what the character wants to be that matters, and not his or her gender. And this is just as true of men as of women in GRRM books. Theon has to struggle with his

Stark upbringing, Sam Tarly with his weak character, Jon with his bastard status etc etc, not to speak of the more tragic consequences of Westeros politics. So with all said and done, gender takes a second or third stage to the more prominent circumstances.

Did society accept Brienne as a knight? I thought the whole point of her character was that it did not. Did it accept Asha? She has to fight against the stereotype of her gender, and even then, she is still married off without her consent, and her brother cannot accept that his father favors her. Did it accept Dany as a queen? If you recall at the end of GoT, when she gives the whip, arakh and bow to her bloodriders they refuse to accept them and swear loyalty to her because she is a woman - it is only through the rather extreme situation of walking through fire unharmed and having dragons that suck at her tits that she is accepted. In fact we see many cases in SoS in which her enemies underestimate her because she is a woman. Melisandre gains respect 'despite' her gender, for the obvious fact that she has massive magical powers. Arya is most definitely not 'accepted' by society as a faceless woman, the whole point of her is that she rebels against the expectations of her society since she was little - she is scolded as a child for not acting as a proper 'lady' and her father at the time explains to her how she will have to marry a nobleman and be his lady and have his children - regardless if he allows her to learn swordfighting, really, as a way to calm her down. And Ygritte in fact also follows the stereotypes of her own society.

So none of these women have ample opportunity to take many roles other than those defined to them by society. All of them have to fight against what society expects of them to gain what they do. Men also have defined roles, yes, but men are tolerated when they break them. Fathering bastards 'dishonors' a man, but everybody really expects it as something that a man does. Ned for example accepts that his friend Robert has bastards with half the whores in the realm, beats his wife and forces himself on her - after all Robert is a man, and he was always one who liked his pleasures. But if the queen has children not of the king, it is high treason that at the least justifies the exile of her entire family from the realm, and Ned is 'honor bound' to tell that to his king. Because men are allowed to deviate from their roles, whereas women are always constrained by them.

So yes, relationships and roles ARE mostly defined by gender. Cersei and Catelyn and Lyana and Sansa and Asha and Arya are expected to do certain things because they are women, and they have to struggle to get the freedom not to do those things. To go back to the example of Cersei, she has to marry Robert because she is a woman - yes because she is a 'noble' woman, she has to marry somebody of a certain station, but nonetheless, if she were a noble 'man' she would have a choice and flexibility in the matter that she doesn't now enjoy. Arya's is the story of the fierce rebel who with great strength of will and having to endure great suffering, escapes what is expected of her, and Sansa's the story of the girl who becomes completely entrapped by physically and mentally.