Sansa, Arya and feminism

[Easy]

I prefer the gender barriers in the story. It would be implausible not to have them given the setting. I find it quite jarring when authors try to impose modern, Western values on a medieval context.

[Ser_Pounce_from_twitter]

I'm not sure if there's much interest to discuss those matters. But I'll like to give it a try. The idea came to me when I read about people disliking Sansa but most people liking Arya. They are quite different types of charackters of course but still are, compared to others in the novels, more on "the good side" if there is such in the novels.

Sansa

Upon first reading I disliked her a lot because she is naive, self-involved, somewhat arrogant (he's our half-brother) and first reason for Ned to loose his head. Rereading the novels I kept reminding me that she's only 13 years of age and "victim" of a traditional upbringing. When you read carefully through her later chapter, you might realize, that she's not only pretty but quite smart as well (she understands LF's plans right away and is able to act accordingly).

Arya

She's quite the opposite: rebellious, self-confident, thinking for herself, tough and open-minded towards others (also low-born ppl). She would fit much better in modern times, or at least, might be happier then.

But that's exactly the question: While obviously Sansa and Arya are clichee types of women that are even in our times held against each other as the true ideal for women I wonder if a statement about that was intended by GRRM? And which exactly would it be?

I have read some 80s-fantasy novels lately and there's hardly any which doesnt glorify the fact of being disabled, dark-skinned or female by making a person with such attributes the main hero. It's boring, obvious and hardly helping the cause. So I really appreciate the fact that GRRM lets us have our own opinion on that topic by giving us two stereotypes to choose or actually not choose between.

As I have not completly made up my mind, I'd like to hear your thoughts about it.

This has probably already been mentioned but Sansa is younger than 13 in the first book (11 I think).

[Caitlin]

Hey, sorry, I've read over some of the earlier posts and this is probably going to be a repeat of a lot of the ideas there, but I want to share my thoughts! I think about Sansa more than I do any other character and her relationship (the sibling relationship and the textual relationship) to Arya is an important part of her role in the books.

Their roles start out with the "stereotypes" (as I believe someone put it up thread) they fill, though I would prefer to say archetypes. Sansa is the pretty princess, Arya is the wild tomboy. (Shades of Arwen and Eowyn in my mind, though much younger and sillier.) The underlying agenda of ASOIAF is to subvert or at least complicate traditional fantasy archetypes and tropes. In the beginning, Arya the Adventurous Tomboy is the likable one while Sansa the Snooty Princess is made to seem kind of awful. From their standard initial characterizations, however, Sansa and Arya move through their own coming of age arcs which show the deeper sides of their characters, the strength or the darkness that underly those traditional roles.

Sansa's coming of age arc involves her being stripped of everything she loves and being forced to play verbal games with a insane and cruel boy and the adult politicians of the court. She rises to the occasion and learns the humility she lacked before; she was traumatized with physical and sexually-tinged abuse but she has continued to adapt and began to use her experience and her insight to play the game. She has begun to develop actual strength underneath her shiny lady veneer. There are small hints to her having the classic Stark strength/stubbornness/nobility throughout and they increase as the books go on. Sometimes being passive requires more strength than being active; she survives her way and I think throwing away her life to fight her captors, as Arya would have done, would have been foolish.

Arya also survives being stripped of family and protectors and she does it in a more active way, fighting and running, which I think is positive in some ways but has led to her character taking some disturbing directions. While Arya with her pack was just a tomboy, Arya the Lone Wolf is a feral child who lashes out, violently attacks, and trusts no one. Good for revenge, maybe, but terrible for living. The TV series inserted a scene where Robert, Barristan, and Jaime discuss the first men they ever killed and all of them were in their teens fighting in battles; Arya killed her first man (boy) at age eight and has killed several more (directly and indirectly) since. Westeros is a violent place and these are hard times, but I don't think any Westerosi would consider that healthy. She's never really dealt with the reality of those deaths and seems to regard murder as a perfectly viable option (major contrast with Brienne here, who is sort of half Arya and half Sansa in my mind.) It's become clearer and clearer to me that Arya's psychologically damaged and hopefully her time in the House of Black and White is intended to teach her the gravity of death and not just give her the tools to murder indiscriminately anyone connected to the fall of her House.

There are a lot of ways they contrast / connect with each other; the major one for me is that, with regards to Westerosi society, Sansa is the ultimate insider while Arya is the ultimate outsider. I have a hard time guessing where Arya is going to end up (physically), because her story has the widest potential range, but I have an equally hard time guessing where Sansa will end up (psychologically) because I think her character has the most potential to take her far beyond what she seems to be.

As for personal preference, I look forward to both their chapters so much and they're probably my two favorite Starks. I think Sansa is a more believable character, though, and I find her easier to identify with. One angle I particularly like with Sansa's character is how she contrasts with older women in the series (Catelyn, Cersei, Lysa, even Margaery) as a sort of younger version of them, before they found their roles in the intrigues of court; I'm excited to see how she'll grow up. I'm hoping she'll be a future Queen of Thorns.

ETA: wow, sorry, hadn't realized I wrote that much, I'm kind of jetlagged. tl;dr: all Starks are hardcore awesome in their own way.

[Raksha the Demon]

Excellent post, Caitlin! Both Stark sisters have been deeply damaged, and are far stronger than they look, or than they should have had to be at their age. And both are still in danger. I hope Arya is not trained as an assassin; and I hope that Sansa does not end up in Littlefinger's bed. I too find Sansa more believable and tend to identify more with her than with Arya, but both girls are sympathetic characters and I want to know what will happen to them.

[YouKnowNothingJonSnow]

Well, I very much like both Stark girls, and as a man, feel kind of out of place commenting on feminism, but here goes. I think both girls seem to represent different aspects of feminism/women's struggles. I don't view one as feminist and one as traditional at all.

Arya. We like her immediately. She's got spirit. She tells the truth. She's a tomboy. Feminism wise, she represents the part that says can break out of stereotypical roles. That girls can do anything they can put their minds to. she's Linda Hamilton/Sigourney Weaver/Milla Jokovich/Kate Beckinsale (sp)/insert female warrior kicking ass. Girl power at age 10. But she's also still a little girl, and quite powerless most times.

Yes, she gets some help, but she also does lot by herself. She stands up to Joff and kicks Joff's butt and throws his sword in the river. She wisely saves Nymeria when she realizes what was going to happen to her, even though it breaks her heart to do it. She kills the stable boy when she has to. She stands up to the boys headed to the watch. She fights bravely when Ser Armory has them surrounded. She frees the men in the cage instead of letting them burn. She saves the Hound at the inn. Yes, she is a little girl who makes impulsive decisions with her first two deaths, but then realizes her mistake, and does an accurate appraisal of her political situation, and uses the 3rd one brilliantly. And the escape from Harrenhal is all her. She helps Sam in Braavos with no real reason to do so. Yes, she's spunky, and still learning. And wants revenge on those who did her family wrong. But I can't wait to see how she turns out. And she IS warging a bit, she just hasn't figured it out yet. I bet she does when she's blind.

Sansa. We don't like her much immediately. She's naive. She's self centered. She lies about what happened with Arya/Joff (though under tremendous pressure to side with Joff). She is self absorbed and besotted with Joff even though she's had ample time to see he's a monster before he cuts Ned's head off/before he's king. She also has ample time to judge Cersei (killing Lady) and the Lannisters (killing Mycah), yet she still trusts her and runs to her about Ned's plans.

Feminism wise, she represents the the more familiar arc. Woman is naive, young, and trapped. Powerless. Wed against her will (twice). Abused physically. No real power. Other than her wits. And her looks. And her strength of personality. Trapped inside societal bonds she can't break, she is forced to do all she can despite the chains society has weighted her down with, and it looks like she's making a good beginning.

Story wise, we shouldn't judge Sansa too harshly for taking Joff's side. She's smart enough to be well aware what her fate would be should she side with Joff (or maybe just her dream of being Queen?), but I'm willing to side with Ned on it. The Cersei betrayal is harder to swallow, though we can kindly chalk it up to her being naive and Cersei and Joff both being charming when the need to be. Still, poor form there. But Ned was doomed. It really only cost the rest of the Stark household their lives, and Ned's letter to Stannis (I think) not getting out.

Still, she does manage her own moments of courage despite her situation. Speaking up and saving her Florian at the tourney. Telling Joff that maybe Robb will hand her HIS head instead. Swallowing her pride and begging for Ned's release (and getting it, momentarily). Almost pushing Joff off the balcony. Asking him how long does she have to look at Ned's head.

She's had some help, too. The Hound. Tyrion. LIttlefinger. But as Tyrion remarked, she IS quite adept and small talk and politicking. She'd make an excellent queen. She carries this over into the Eyrie, where everyone respects her and Sweetrobin adores her. She's got the run of the place, and not just because of her status as LF's daughter, but because she's earned it. She may win herself enough room to slip some of those chains before too long. Or get good enough at the game she's starting to show some affinity at to wrap up someone else. Her story isn't as fun as Arya's or Underworld/Alien/Terminator 2/etc, but it is a struggle for liberation in it's own way. One that many women have had to fight, and win, over the centuries. And one to be admired.

[wallofice]

I love your post, Caitlin, and I completely agree. Arya's strength and survival skills come to light much quicker because of the kind of person she is - she's simply more active while Sansa is more of a passive character. But Sansa was also in a position that required her to be passive if she wanted to survive - whereas Arya would have gotten herself killed at the Sept of Baelor if Yoren hadn't interfered.

And while I do think that Arya and Sansa represent the two opposing archetypes of womanhood - with Arya getting by on her supposedly 'masculine' fighting traits and Sansa often being bogged down by her feminine 'sexuality' (as in the sexual way in which men perceive her) - they both are dealing with the loss of identity in general. Arya much put aside her Starkness to become Faceless (which I really hope doesn't happen), and Sansa must put aside hers to become Alayne Stone. But in doing so, both girls are learning things about themselves and the world around them, whether or not they eventually decide to completely forego their true identity.

As for which character I like best in general, I really love both of them. Arya was one of my favorites from the get-go, whereas I hated Sansa at first. But as the first book went on, I slowly started to see subtleties in Sansa's POV and felt a bit protective of her. And now that her intelligence is shining through in the Vale? She's definitely on my favorites list right alongside Arya. And I don't think the fact that she's been pushed forward by the people around her does anything to discredit her character. Look at Cersei, who's only managed to get to where she is because of her father and Varys/Littlefinger, etc. The difference is that Cersei has no idea what to do with her power and screws everything up left and right, whereas Sansa appears to be a quick learner and knows how to adapt to the situations being thrust upon her.

[MM22]

I agree with much of what has been said by Caitlin and subsequent posters.

I like both characters and I can't wait to know how their roles pan out.

I think it is so unfair to berate Sansa. In GOT and for a while afterwards she is exactly what she has been brought up to be: A haughty, fanciful child who knows nothing of her future except that one day, she will have a glorious noble marriage, wear pretty gowns and have beautiful children. She is naive, but in her mind she has no reason to think that things will go wrong. Westeros has been in a state of relative peace all of her own life and she has grown up away from royal intrigues or betrayals.

She places all her trust in her new Lannister family, rather naively, but she is 11 for gods sake? Who blames an 11 year old for not quite understanding the weight of their words/actions?

I believe she is one of the strongest characters. Her whole world is shattered - and yet she copes. She has the strength to try and accept the situations that she cannot change.

Many argue that Sansa is passive and boring while most other characters have a clear motive and goal. Sansa is so young and only just beginning to understand herself, and the world around her. That, to me is something that makes her very interesting. Also from a readers point of view she is valuable as she gets an inside view of many of the noble houses - Starks, Baratheon/Lannister, Tyrell, and then Arryn/The Eyrie.

From a real world historical view also (which is probably quite irrelevant) she is one of the most valuable pawns in the game because of all of her family ties.

Through marriage or birth or kinship she is related to: Houses Stark, Lannister, Arryn, and Tully.

Given that Littlefinger is grooming her for the Vale - This means she has possible birthright claims to the lands of Stark and Tully, and potential marriage claims to Lannister and Arryn.

I like the way that there are parallels between Sansa and Cersei/Caitlyn. I believe that though she is neither of them, she has it in her to be a bit of a hybrid - Cersei's political and manipulative nature, with her mothers compassion and good nature.

I suppose the point I am trying to get across is that Sansa's story maybe has been a little uneventful and passive but it is my belief that Sansa's story has barely begun - One day she will stop being a pawn and start being a player.

Arya is a great character, but she appeals slightly less to me personally. Purely because I'm very attached to the noble houses, wars, intrigues and politics of Westeros and Arya is so seperate from all of that. I do however agree, that Arya has her own strength I believe that in time they will both come to show a little of eachothers characteristics (I would like that anyway). Maybe even work together? Who knows?

The compelling thing about these sisters is that in a way they have very similar stories but under vastly different circumstances and deal with their trials in entirely different ways.

[Wouter]

I like the way that there are parallels between Sansa and Cersei/Caitlyn. I believe that though she is neither of them, she has it in her to be a bit of a hybrid - Cersei's political and manipulative nature, with her mothers compassion and good nature.

Now that's a nice sentiment. Even though Cersei isn't all that effective politically, but I get what you mean.

[Ser_Piggy]

Why is that just because they are female characters feminism has to come into play?

They are two characters in a book. Yes they conform somewhat to stereotypes (Sansa - goody two shoes, prom queen), Arya (rebellious tom boy, ugly duckling etc) but then so do most characters in the book, both male and female. That's because in real life most people also conform to stereotypes too, some barely, some strongly but most people do to an extent. The great thing about GRRM is that he gives us the psychology of WHY they conform to certain stereotypes.

The characters, both male and female, in the book have strengths and weaknesses. Feminism has nothing to do with it. GRRM is a master story teller, telling a grand story and individual stories of people within his fantastical world.

[wallofice]

Why is that just because they are female characters feminism has to come into play?

They are two characters in a book. Yes they conform somewhat to stereotypes (Sansa - goody two shoes, prom queen), Arya (rebellious tom boy, ugly duckling etc) but then so do most characters in the book, both male and female. That's because in real life most people also conform to stereotypes too, some barely, some strongly but most people do to an extent. The great thing about GRRM is that he gives us the psychology of WHY they conform to certain stereotypes.

The characters, both male and female, in the book have strengths and weaknesses. Feminism has nothing to do with it. GRRM is a master story teller, telling a grand story and individual stories of people within his fantastical world.

I think that simply because these are two female characters written into a world where females are oppressed but written in a time when that is not the case as much, it's interesting for some of us to ask what (if anything) the author is saying about woman and feminism.

Feminism might be a misnomer for the thread title, but I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing what it means to be a woman in George R.R. Martin's world of Ice and Fire.

[Ser_Piggy]

I think that simply because these are two female characters written into a world where females are oppressed but written in a time when that is not the case as much, it's interesting for some of us to ask what (if anything) the author is saying about woman and feminism.

Feminism might be a misnomer for the thread title, but I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing what it means to be a woman in George R.R. Martin's world of Ice and Fire.

In that case people are missing the point entirely. Because it's not a man vs woman world. It's a noble vs smallfolk world. The nobles literally get away with murder.

[starki]

They're both stereotypes, much like majority of women in ASOIF: it's either the sweet princess or the tough tomboy*. I guess it's the price of writing in a medieval setting. Which is why Cersei and Daenerys are the best female characters.

That said I much prefer Arya's active approach. Sansa (who I don't care for much ever since she betrayed her family when Joffrey got bitten by the direwolf) just continues to be pushed around willingly: yes LF may not hurt her like Joff but still. In fact getting in LF's bed - which, surely, is what LF wants - is not much of an improvement.

*Catelyn being the archetypical mother character.

[mormont]

In that case people are missing the point entirely. Because it's not a man vs woman world. It's a noble vs smallfolk world.

You're suggesting that it can't be both?

Westeros is a society built on class divisions, yes - but also on gender divisions. The latter can be argued to be more important when it comes to the text, because there are very few common-born POV characters but many female POV characters. There's no doubt that almost every one of those female characters finds herself at some point facing prejudice because of her sex. It's certainly equally true that Davos faces prejudice because of his common birth, Jon because of his bastard birth, Tyrion because of his deformity, and Sam because of his weight and unmartial nature: but there's nothing wrong with examining the prejudice that all the female characters suffer by comparing and contrasting two who represent different ends of the spectrum, as it were.

[Breakspear]

In that case people are missing the point entirely. Because it's not a man vs woman world. It's a noble vs smallfolk world. The nobles literally get away with murder.

I don't think feminism equates to 'man vs woman', but I see your point. Most inequality boils down to the powerless being exploited by the powerful, and aSoIaF has plenty of both.

[mcb]

I think it is so unfair to berate Sansa. In GOT and for a while afterwards she is exactly what she has been brought up to be: A haughty, fanciful child who knows nothing of her future except that one day, she will have a glorious noble marriage, wear pretty gowns and have beautiful children. She is naive, but in her mind she has no reason to think that things will go wrong. Westeros has been in a state of relative peace all of her own life and she has grown up away from royal intrigues or betrayals.

She places all her trust in her new Lannister family, rather naively, but she is 11 for gods sake? Who blames an 11 year old for not quite understanding the weight of their words/actions?

Because her younger sister shows a lot more brains. Very early in the story, on the King's road, Sansa sees with her own eyes that Joffrey is cruel and a coward. And she chooses not to believe in what she saw.

[olennaredyne]

Nicely put, Caitlyn.

Sansa isn't just passive - she's passive-aggressive. She's actually quite quick-witted - I was rereading GoT, and what I noticed was how quickly Sansa shifted her emotions and external appearance in the immediate aftermath of her father's death. There is no mistaking how much she hates Joffrey then; she wants Robb to kill him, she "sees him for the first time" - but her instincts kick in and she withdraws into herself.

As I see it, Sansa decides to utilize the only resources available to her - her "innocence" and beauty, and she does it well. She never tries to put up a fight because she knows that she can't win. We admire Arya for doing so, but Arya has barely any more agency than Sansa, and ends up where she does almost arbitrarily. You might argue that Sansa and Arya also learn the same skills - how to keep your head down, how to blend into the environment, and not to draw too much attention.

She's not in the same position as her siblings. She can't wage war like Robb or bargain like Catelyn or hide and run like Arya. The choice to please Joffrey is a deliberate one, not because she's still a love-stricken moron. Sansa gets that her life is totally contingent on the whims of a psychopath who might get bored with her (as he eventually does) and get rid of her as easily he did her father.

Considering that she's in the belly of the beast the entire time, I'd say that she does very well. And look closely at her POV in AFFC to see how she's subtly evolved from the first book - she's oddly bored and cynical whenever the mention of knights come up, she's greatly suspicious towards everyone, and she tends/manipulates her cousin Robert Arryn flawlessly.

She's learned discretion and manipulation at a hard cost, and I'm kind of excited to see how she'll continue to fare under Littlefinger's tutelage.

[Olenna]

Because her younger sister shows a lot more brains. Very early in the story, on the King's road, Sansa sees with her own eyes that Joffrey is cruel and a coward. And she chooses not to believe in what she saw.

Sansa was under a lot of pressure because she was betrothed to him, which means that from her perspective it was in her best interest not to call him out on his misbehavior. Think about it. You've been betrothed to someone and you've just met his family (who rule the country and who you'll be living with for the rest of your life) and he misbehaves so you...make a fuss about it? Especially after he's been "punished" by your family's pet wolf? Dumb. Very dumb. Arya showed more courage in that situation, but not more intelligence. And it's not at all clear that she shows more intelligence than Sansa in the later books. They just have different brains--Arya is more of a lightning-reflex, no-bullshit character who thinks on her feet, whereas Sansa is a more prudent, let's-weigh-the-options character who plays the long game. The latter is not as glamorous but it's an equally valuable life strategy.

olennaredyne, I agree 100% with your post.

Why are people so judgmental of fantasy characters who...horror of horrors...act like real-life people?

[Lady Blackfish]

You're suggesting that it can't be both?

Westeros is a society built on class divisions, yes - but also on gender divisions.

Indeed, and undoubtedly divisions based on race, ethnicity, disability, etc. The presence of one thing doesn't negate the presence of others, and Martin shows that's true of Westeros as well (though maybe not as much on race and ethnicity, but that's another thread ...)

[iamthedave]

In that case people are missing the point entirely. Because it's not a man vs woman world. It's a noble vs smallfolk world. The nobles literally get away with murder.

In this case you're missing the point entirely.

The presence of issues in a world does not make those the issues the story is concerned with. To determine those you need to look at the characters, and multiple characters specifically explore gender roles and explicit feminist issues. Cersei is the most obvious because of her aforementioned penis envy, but Sansa, Arya and Brienne are also very strongly linked to issues of feminism.

How many characters highlight the noble/smallfolk divide?

[Olenna]

Just a thought: We've been discussing feminism mainly in terms of female characters and how they're portrayed, but might it be useful to discuss it in terms of male characters too? For example, how does GRRM use the male POV characters' dealings with or thoughts about women to illustrate the relationship between men and women in Westeros?

One thing that's kind of interesting, given the medieval setting, is the absence of male characters who are devoted to an unattainable woman in the courtly love tradition of medieval literature. We get it in some non-POVs--Jorah and maybe Sandor--but as far as POVs are concerned, it's mainly women who idealize and idolize men they can't have: Sansa, Brienne, even Cersei in the case of Rhaegar. The men, on the other hand, think about the women they've been with or the women they're with now. Not sure if it means anything, but is it possible that these authorial choices were affected by social norms in modern society, where women are more promiscuous and available to men outside of marriage, which means both that men don't have to work as hard to get laid and that women have to compete more with each other to "land" desirable men? This might explain why the male POV characters find sexual satisfaction pretty quickly and don't exhibit a significant degree of longing for particular unattainable women, whereas the female characters spend a lot of time thinking about men who are "out of their league".

All of this makes me wonder, on a related note: has courtly love become more of a female thing than a male thing in modern society?

I guess I'm trying to get at the ways in which modern gender roles have impinged on the medieval setting, and what this story might have to tell us about our own society.