Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Iotun

Tyrion as a Targaryen

Recommended Posts

Back on topic, Tyrion is described as having white-blond hair (different from the spun gold of Jaime and Cersei).

Tommen also has white-blond hair, different from the spun gold of his parents Jaime and Cersei.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Tywin hates Tyrion more for what he brings along than him as a person. Tyrion is mocked and laughed at where ever he goes. Tywin knows this so I think when he sees or hears people mock Tyrion he takes it as mocking the family. And Tywin hates being laughed at.

I think that "Wrong that Areys did me" might have been naming Jaime to the Kingsgaurd when Aerys knew Tywin wanted him to rule Casterly Rock.

I'm not sold on him having dragon dreams means he's a targ. The Targs dragons helped rule for a hudred or so years, i'm sure a lot of people, targ and non targ had dreams of them. I'm sure t hat some person who read of dragons had dreams of them.I know that so far the only people that we know of to have dragon dreams(except Tyrion) have been Taragryns but that doesn't mean only their house has those dreams.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tommen also has white-blond hair, different from the spun gold of his parents Jaime and Cersei.

Yes, but not the black eye. It isn't just each thing individually, but all of them together.

1) Tyrion as white/blond hair. Like a Targ.

2) Tyrion dreams of Dragons. Like a Targ (Danym Daeron, + possibly others).

3) Tyrion's mother died giving birth to him. Like Dany and Jon.

4) Tyrion has a black eye (unlike Tommen). Where did he get it from? We know there is at least one character who had eyes that seemed black, but were really just dark purple, with a reference to dragonlords in the same paragraph, no less.

5) Tywin makes multiple references to him NOT being his son, and refuses to give him Casterly Rock, ever.

While I'm not saying this proves anything, but I am saying there are at least 5 pieces of evidence that point to it being possible. So I don't see how anyone can dismiss it, either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4) Tyrion has a black eye (unlike Tommen). Where did he get it from? We know there is at least one character who had eyes that seemed black, but were really just dark purple, with a reference to dragonlords in the same paragraph, no less.

But Targaryens don't seem to have had eyes that were black. Some of them had eyes that looked black at times, but people were able to tell that they are actually dark purple, ergo if Tyrion has Targaryen eye color, his black eye doesn't always look black. How is it no one noticed and talked about that? Servants that dressed him when he was little, maesters that looked over him, other nobles like Sansa who comments on his face several times?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always find this theory astonishing.

Firstly, that a man like Tywin would stay Aerys' Hand for 8 years after Aerys possibly raped his beloved wife; and secondly that if such an event took place nobody in the entire kingdom heard so much as a whisper about it.

Even though his Kingsguards certainly heard when Aerys raped his own wife.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Tywin hates Tyrion more for what he brings along than him as a person. Tyrion is mocked and laughed at where ever he goes. Tywin knows this so I think when he sees or hears people mock Tyrion he takes it as mocking the family. And Tywin hates being laughed at.

Exactly. Tyrion takes more from the Lannisters than he gives, though it is for nothing more than being a dwarf, though his siblings certainly are famous in the realm. Jaime was the youngest person ever to don a White Cloak and become a Kingsguard, and while he is now Kingslayer, he is also Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Cersei becomes Queen of the entire realm and married to King Robert. Tyrion meanwhile does almost nothing but read books. He can't fight battles, no women want to take his hand in marriage, and he's ugly and hideous and short.

People assume the worst of him. No chance he was innocent in anyone's eyes for attempting to kill Bran. Definitely guilty.

What's even worse is that when Tyrion accomplishes things he doesn't get credit. Using wildfire properly to defend the city? All Cersei's idea. The great chain to break Stannis's fleet? Bronn and the sellswords get knighthoods for their service. Saving the city? Renly's ghost did that. The little monkey demon only kills the sweet King Joffrey.

I think that "Wrong that Areys did me" might have been naming Jaime to the Kingsgaurd when Aerys knew Tywin wanted him to rule Casterly Rock.

Don't forget that Tywin (and Cersei) desperately wanted Cersei to marry Rhaeger. Jaime got revenge for Aerys appointing him a Kingsguard, merely to anger Tywin, by stabbing the King in the back with a gold sword. And Tywin gets revenge on the Dorne royal family for marrying Rhaegar instead of Cersei by having Gregor rape and kill everyone in the Red Keep.

That being said, if Tyrion is a (secret) Targ, it would be a jump-the-shark-in-a-rocket-ship moment for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look, obviously there's nothing to prove this, I'm saying however that there's definitely some potential evidence there:

- The brutal way with which Tywin treated the Targaryens in King's Landing and the city itself.

A lot of people found themselves on the receiving end of Tywin's cruelty. Seems implausible that all of them had fucked Joanna.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But Targaryens don't seem to have had eyes that were black. Some of them had eyes that looked black at times, but people were able to tell that they are actually dark purple, ergo if Tyrion has Targaryen eye color, his black eye doesn't always look black. How is it no one noticed and talked about that? Servants that dressed him when he was little, maesters that looked over him, other nobles like Sansa who comments on his face several times?

Well, your first idea might not be true. You've really only seen true-blood Targs, for the most part. The Darkstar is a Dayne, and they have some Targ blood, do they not? In fact, anyone with purple eyes at all (like Edric Dayne, for instance) is usually ID'd as a possible Targ because the violet eyes are nearly exclusive to their family (or Valyrian bloodlines).

To answer your question more directly, and it is a good one, people often see what they want to see. What they expect to see. His eyes are so darkly purple they are almost black. Black eyes are common. Dark purple are very rare. With the colors so close, most people would call them black. Maybe that eye is a combination of purple/green that appears even more black than Darkstar's. I have no idea.

I just think the between the dragon dreams, his hair color, his mom dying in childbirth, some of Tywin's treatment of him, and the possibility about the black/purple eyes being brought up in a paragraph where Martin also mentions dragonlords is enough to make the theory viable in my book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that his hair color is that great of evidence. If R+L+J is true than that means that your hair doesn't have to have any silver it for you to be of targaryn blood. it's neither evidence for or against him being a Targ.

I think that his,Jon's and Dany's mothers dying childbirth has more to do with them being the three heads of the dragon than him being a Targ. They have to have some connection and it's been said that the riders of the dragons don't have to all Targaryns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've read through the arguments in this thread and, while I hate to admit it, there does seem to be some textual evidence for this theory. It's thin, but it's there. I will say, however, that I think it will be quite lame if this turns out to be the case. I think it would really ruin the essence of what makes Tyrion who he is.

Tuesday can't come quickly enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tyrion is awesome enough as is so I don't really give this theory to much thought.

If it were true tho it would just seem like an unneeded accessory to his character to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, your first idea might not be true. You've really only seen true-blood Targs, for the most part. The Darkstar is a Dayne, and they have some Targ blood, do they not? In fact, anyone with purple eyes at all (like Edric Dayne, for instance) is usually ID'd as a possible Targ because the violet eyes are nearly exclusive to their family (or Valyrian bloodlines).

I don't recall Daynes having any Targaryen blood and according to the Citadel they aren't descended from any Valyrian family.

To answer your question more directly, and it is a good one, people often see what they want to see. What they expect to see. His eyes are so darkly purple they are almost black. Black eyes are common. Dark purple are very rare. With the colors so close, most people would call them black. Maybe that eye is a combination of purple/green that appears even more black than Darkstar's. I have no idea.

He must have met thousands of people in his lifetime and all of them chose to ignore what their eyes told them and saw Tyrion's as black because this eye color is more wide-spread? It might not be impossible, but it just seems really far-fetched to me and I don't think the A+J=T theory even needs it that much. I don't want it to turn out to be true, but if it did, I personally would be more okay with "Tyrion is a Targaryen bastard that takes after his Lannisters relatives" than with "Tyrion is a Targaryen bastard and though no one noticed, his eye was dark purple all along".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't quite believe this theory.

Firstly, it would be way better from a literary sense to have Tyrion as Tywin's son, and the most like him of all his children. If he is a Targ, all this story loses its impact and the kinslaying thing is gone immediately.

Secondly, Tywin's treatment of Tyrion gives no reason to believe that Tyrion is not his real son. Sure, he says "you are not my son", but then he says it to Jaime too when Jaime refuses to leave the Kingsguard, which makes me feel that he says it whenever his children don't follow his bidding. Remember too, when Jaime was captured by the Starks, Tywin turned to Tyrion to rule in King's Landing. In other words, Tyrion is still the backup.

Thirdly, with Tywin's character, if Tyrion was not his son, he would have been dead long ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While there is the remote possibility Tyrion could be a targ, the only hint we have are his dragon dreams. In the first novel when he is on the wall, he talks to Jon about these dreams. However, we never know if Jon has had dragon dreams as well, but that is another story.

House Dayne has no targ blood. They were around before the targ invasion, as the awoiaf pointed out, furthermore having similar traits does not mean the two families are related. For example having dark hair doesnt make one a Baratheon, or having blonde hair a Lannister.

However, it is notable that the only people who have had dragon dreams were targs. Name one person, who suffered these dreams besides Tyrion who is not targ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, what I am suggesting is that quite possibly Tywin himself does not know of this theory. As for who would know of the possibility, I imagine that possibly Ser Barristan would know if there was a rape or some sort of sexual act, as the kingsguard know the king's secrets. Jaime was not a member at the time to have heard of the possibility.

It could be that if Dany and Tyrion meet, it will be the way he will be treated by the dragons that will make ser Barristan suspect the possibility.

But again, as I said, I also would rather that Tyrion stay a Lannister. It makes his story much more realistic as it doesn't resort to far fetched coincidences, and also much more tragic.

But I'm just saying there's possible evidence there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that his hair color is that great of evidence. If R+L+J is true than that means that your hair doesn't have to have any silver it for you to be of targaryn blood. it's neither evidence for or against him being a Targ.

I think that his,Jon's and Dany's mothers dying childbirth has more to do with them being the three heads of the dragon than him being a Targ. They have to have some connection and it's been said that the riders of the dragons don't have to all Targaryns.

Plus, these three really fit the "typical hero story structure" fairly well. An exile, a bastard and an un-loved dwarf all without mothers (and now, no fathers either).

For those familiar with the structure, you can see The Departure, The Initiation and The Return (to come I guess).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thirdly, with Tywin's character, if Tyrion was not his son, he would have been dead long ago.

Maybe, but that depends on how adverse Tywin is to kinslaying, since Tyrion would still be Joanna's and she's a Lannister. I could easily see Tywin sending him away though.

There's also the possibility of Tywin not knowing, or merely suspecting (at one time he says that he cannot prove that Tyrion is not his, which could be interpreted as if there has been some suspicion of it).

But it could still be either way and I'm fine with whatever Tyrion turns out to be (as long as he doesn't turn out to be a Stark... :rolleyes: )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Aerys had forced himself on Tywin's wife I'm sure his first reaction would have been to give her moon tea, Westeros is no stranger to abortion and Tryion's eyes are black and green, green eyes are a Lannister trait, he also has blond hair. And the dragon dreams seem likely to be just part of a childhood phase which he's long since grown out of.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×