[ADWD Spoilers] Bran

[Sword of the Morning]

I don't think the Children are in any way allied with the Others nor am I convinced that they were driven away by the Andals even.

I think there weren't that many of them to begin with and as the times changed they just decided to move away. Kinda like the elves in Tolkien's mythos leaving Middle Earth for Valinor from the Grey Havens.

The Children in point of fact seem to fight the Others and the wights pretty fiercely and most of the reason Bloodraven hung on so late was to train Bran as much as he could before fading himself so there would be someone to carry on the struggle against the White Walkers.

I tend to think Bran's main importance would be one of knowledge and communication. He is in a unique position to finally learn essentially first hand the answers to all the riddles. The nature of the Others, what they want, how they were once defeated, etc, etc. He would also be able to see where ALL the Starks are left in the world no matter how far off and be able to lead them through dreams back together again. They are in such far off places that I literally can not think of any other way for them all to come together in the time and space we have left. They HAVE to come back. Jojen says gravely "The wolves will return" and we know the last book was called A Time for Wolves before George changed it to A Dream of Spring because he thought the original title was too spoilerish.

Yes I think the setup is kinda creepy but I really do think that the 3-Eyed Crow and the Children of the Forest are on the side of the good guys at least with regard to the Others.

I'm also not sure that Jojen and Meera are dead, it would be sorta pointless to have them killed in their current location. For variety's sake, I hope they and Holdor have more to do than just get Bran to the cave and then wither away. Hopefully, Bran will be powerful enough to get rid of the wights around the cave and then send them back out with Coldhands to do some more stuff . . .

[Dragons Dancing]

I don't think the Children are in any way allied with the Others nor am I convinced that they were driven away by the Andals even.

I think there weren't that many of them to begin with and as the times changed they just decided to move away. Kinda like the elves in Tolkien's mythos leaving Middle Earth for Valinor from the Grey Havens.

The Children in point of fact seem to fight the Others and the wights pretty fiercely and most of the reason Bloodraven hung on so late was to train Bran as much as he could before fading himself so there would be someone to carry on the struggle against the White Walkers.

I tend to think Bran's main importance would be one of knowledge and communication. He is in a unique position to finally learn essentially first hand the answers to all the riddles. The nature of the Others, what they want, how they were once defeated, etc, etc. He would also be able to see where ALL the Starks are left in the world no matter how far off and be able to lead them through dreams back together again. They are in such far off places that I literally can not think of any other way for them all to come together in the time and space we have left. They HAVE to come back. Jojen says gravely "The wolves will return" and we know the last book was called A Time for Wolves before George changed it to A Dream of Spring because he thought the original title was too spoilerish.

Yes I think the setup is kinda creepy but I really do think that the 3-Eyed Crow and the Children of the Forest are on the side of the good guys at least with regard to the Others.

I'm also not sure that Jojen and Meera are dead, it would be sorta pointless to have them killed in their current location. For variety's sake, I hope they and Holdor have more to do than just get Bran to the cave and then wither away. Hopefully, Bran will be powerful enough to get rid of the wights around the cave and then send them back out with Coldhands to do some more stuff . . .

I really like this analysis. I loved seeing Bran's story line progess and learning about the farseers, the children and the wierwoods capabilities was great. I was though, like others, so depressed to think that Bran may have to spend his entire life in a tree in the dark with no human comfort. He is only a boy. Bloodraven had a long human life with love, happiness and sorrow before becoming a farseer. I also wonder how much farseers can effect the human condition. Bloodraven doesn't seem to have any impact on the wars racking Westeros. Has he just been sitting in his tree watching all this murder, rape and mayhem for the past 80 years or so? GRRM has many ways he could take Bran's storyline and I very much hope he has something other than living in the dark in a tree in mind for Bran. I also think that Summer is important to this story line so would be shocked if he were to die. I think his name "Summer" is important and Bran was born in the summer. Maybe thhe will have an important role in bringing the long 1,000 year summer (after the tragedy of the Others). I hope Bran and Meera have some kind of future together, otherwise Bran will be so very lonely. It is likely Jojen will not survive. His sulleness is puzzling. Is he sullen because he is stuck there or because he appears to have no future role?

[hagga on her hill]

I've just been skimming a few threads since I only finished the book an hour ago, but am I the only one who has serious heebies about Bloodraven and the Children of the Forest?

Have you read GRRM's novella A Song for Lya? It has a spiritual hivemind in the deep dark caves scenario that's barely been changed for Bloodraven's weirwood throne, and the way "when singers die they become part of that godhood." GRRM takes a pretty hard stance against giving up your physical body to merge with a tangible Gaia religion there, and the scenes with Bran make me wonder.

Edit: the wording in the scenes after Bran asks, "They're going to kill me?" just gets creepier and creepier. "And almost every day they ate blood stew, thickened with barleycorn and onions and chunks of meat. Jojen thought it might be squirrel meat, and Meera said that it was rat. Bran did not care. It was meat and it was good. The stewing made it tender." This is right after Summer and his pack eat a bunch of wights, Bran has already decided not to care about vicarious cannibalism via Summer, Wyman Manderly serves up some Freys to the tune of "The Rat Cook." Then we see Summer eating more wights and Bran warging into a terrified, violated Hodor. The Children might be able to be one with all living things without having any ethical problems, but the same isn't true for Bran.

Edit 2: Oh, god, and the way they're exploiting Bran's body/disability issues and the brainwashing acorn paste, this is getting worse and worse. I can practically hear the horror soundtrack in this chapter, ugghhh.

Edit 3: And Bran's visions take us all the way back to the bronze age, a ritual sacrifice that echoes the barleycorn in the soup (John Barleycorn must die), the likely human meat in the soup, and the blood in the weirwood paste...and Bran says NO. Yeah, this isn't a religion that's being presented in a positive light.

[Alexius]

The prolouge was all about that wildling skinchanger's memories of his mentor and all the warnings he was given about, basically, moral rules for wargs. These included changing into birds and other humans, which Bran has now done multiple times, and the bird was implicitly encouraged by Three Eyes. Sure, Hodor is simple-minded and it's a great work around to Bran's crippled status, but he's human, conscious of Bran's invasion, and very unhappy about it.

He also ate human flesh in his first chapter. It was a quiet shocker for me when he ate dead humans and changed into Hodor without any second-thoughts. It's wrong and disturbing by itself, but with Varamyr's chapter it seems to indicate clearly that Bran has a much darker path ahead of him.

[uberstellar]

I can practically hear the horror soundtrack in this chapter, ugghhh.

Right?!? It's like foreshadowing 101. Everyone seems to be trying to crack the angle of how this is good for our favorite protagonists, which I can see in a normal fantasy setting, but knowing the series... this entire plotline raised more goosebumps than Theon's, for me personally.

[jack88]

Right?!? It's like foreshadowing 101. Everyone seems to be trying to crack the angle of how this is good for our favorite protagonists, which I can see in a normal fantasy setting, but knowing the series... this entire plotline raised more goosebumps than Theon's, for me personally.

I too got massive heebees with Bloodraven and the Children and this was made 100000x times worse when Mel was looking into her fires and saw the wooden man and the wolf boy as the Great Other's servants

[BranS]

Brans Chapters were by far my favorite.

did not know where else to post this

Mine too. Funnily enough. ;]

[jack88]

Also, let us consider for a moment that right now there is no definite antagonist representing the Others. There are most definitely protagonists representing "the good guys" - unless Martin is just going to have the Others as blank, 2D evil faceless enemies destroying everything in their path, which may or not be the case, surely there would have to be an actual antagonist behind them.

[hagga on her hill]

this entire plotline raised more goosebumps than Theon's, for me personally.

SERIOUSLY. With Theon it was more of a "what squick is next to come" or "is he going to actually come out and say that Ramsay chopped off his penis :| :| :|". But Theon was coming out of the pit, and Bran is just spiralling down into this benevolent-looking Wicker Man underworld, and it's terrrifying.

[Drowned Mikken]

I'm really kind of against the religion of R'hollar. They seem to empower and encourage massive acts of bloodshed and they don't seem to have any qualms with using and elevating ruthless people with their powers. See Stannis McGlowysword and the now Kick-ass Victorian with a burning hand). Melisandre using blood magic looks really iffy, and it seems kind of hypocritical for a religion that values and preaches about the power of life to burn people to death for people who don't convert.

No religion in ASOIAF is completely innocent and good. Even in the most peaceful cults, you can have psychopaths like Mirri Maz Durr, but the Red God just seems ten times more bad news than the Old Gods.

[Marsala]

Also, let us consider for a moment that right now there is no definite antagonist representing the Others. There are most definitely protagonists representing "the good guys" - unless Martin is just going to have the Others as blank, 2D evil faceless enemies destroying everything in their path, which may or not be the case, surely there would have to be an actual antagonist behind them.

I have a hunch that the Faceless Men are planning to bring down the Wall to help the Others. The former Jaqen H'ghar's purpose in Oldtown is ominous as hell, and Sam may have the true Horn of Joramun...

Aside from that, I don't think that the Others have any human allies. Unless Littlefinger made a pact with them in return for probability falling in his favor or something.

[chrisdaw]

Given that one was a tall knight kissing some woman, and the next Dunk and Egg story is set in the North, I think that one was of Ser Duncan the Tall.

(And Hodor's grandmother. :smoking: )

Yeah, Dunk + Old nan = Hodor after a few generations is seeming more likely after that vision. I'd like to know what the pregnant woman praying for a son to avenge her is all about.

I think Bloodraven is near death and will die soon, he was just holding on for Bran to arrive.

[JeremyReed]

Are the Reeds dead? I can't find a reason to believe either if they're dead or alive...

[A Time for Wolves]

Assuming Bloodraven and his children have "good" intentions, I still don't think that means Bran will be stuck in the cave forever. There are other weirwoods he can eventually merge with, and I kind of thought he would be able to return to Winterfell in the spring, live a long human life, and eventually begin merging with Winterfell's heart tree when it's clear his human life is over. That would be especially cool, because then he could still talk to his family (his sisters, his brothers, Rickon's descendants) and be their old wise man for another century.

If Bloodraven is a servant of the Great Other, however, or something horribly creepy...then Bran's story is starting to look scarier. I'm going to re-read those bits.

[XerxesVargas]

My take is that Bran is just there with Bloodraven to be trained and that he will get out of there somehow. Even though he will be very powerful, it would be very difficult for him to have a proper effect on the plot of the coming books from where he is.

I think that he will marry Meera and reinstate the old religion and the Children of the Forest in the North at the end of the story.

I think he will have a key role in the fight against the Others. For him to do that, in a practical sense, people will need to know he is alive and he will need to be near(er) where the action is.

[Steel_Wind]

BLoodraven is NOT a servant of the Others, nor are the Children. They are the ones who fought the Others with obsidian in the Dawn Age.

If you need further proof of Bloodraven's allegiance, remember what Bloodraven shows Bran in his 3rd chapter in A Game of Thrones:

...Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

- Bran 3 A Game of Thrones

Bloodraven opposes the Others, as do the Children. It's not about being comfortable with cannibalism, it is that there are no alternatives to it: eat the flesh of the dead or die yourself. Coldhands tells Hodor, Meera and Jojen that he found a sow so that they would be at ease. What was important was that they stay alive and reach the Children. This is a survival situation, not representative of the ordinary moral choices of the Children -- or of Bloodraven.

Ser Alliser Thorne refers to a similar situation in the TV series. While the scene was not taken from the book, it makes perfect sense in the context of the grim survival choices that the Winter forces upon those north of the Wall. And D&D had access to the text of the then current draft of ADwD when they were writing that episode, too.

Now Manderly and the Freys? That was different. That was pure vengeance.

[Lummel]

BLoodraven is NOT a servant of the Others, nor are the Children. They are the ones who fought the Others with obsidian in the Dawn Age.

...

Bloodraven opposes the Others, as do the Children. It's not about being comfortable with cannibalism, it is that there are no alternatives to it: eat the flesh of the dead or die yourself. Coldhands tells Hodor, Meera and Jojen that he found a sow so that they would be at ease. What was important was that they stay alive and reach the Children. This is a survival situation, not representative of the ordinary moral choices of the Children -- or of Bloodraven...

I agree with you that Bloodraven and the squirrel people are opposed to the others but don't think they are 'good guys' pure and simple either.

Bloodraven in the Dunk & Egg stories so far comes accross as an ambivilent character (and what happened that took him from the wall to the squirrel people - is he a deserter and an oath breaker too?) and I'm reminded by the Wilding woman who says that sorcery is a sword without a hilt - ie dangerous to the user as well as the person it's being used upon.

Varamyr dismisses being taught that eating human flesh is an abomination, but we see what happens to him. It implies that Bran is in a morally dangerous position, it's definately a sinster turn in the story - he's happy to warg into Hodor, doesn't have a problem as Summer to eat people, of course he's a child and his sense of morality is undeveloped - but I'm feeling nervous now thinking about what going to happen to this sweet prince who is being exposed to so much power. the situation feels sinister to me.

[Lady of Casterly Rock]

I hope Bloodraven does not only teach Bran how to become a greenseer, but also teaches him a moral background. Varamyrs mentor thought him rules. Bran needs rules, too. It isn´t clear for me, if Bloodraven realized, that Bran wargs Hoder on a quite regular base. I hope he does not know until now, finds out in the next book and tells Bran that a view things are forbidden (warging into living humans for example).

I hope Bloodraven does not turn up being evil. Perhaps thinking everything is allowed that helps to defied the others.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

I think Mel thought Bloodraven was the enemy because she was surprised to see someone looking back at her, because the "thousand red eyes" indicate that he is very powerful, and because the power does not come from R'hllor. Those red folk don't like competition.

I want to know more about Bran et al. To me, this is what fantasy lit is made of (especially since that dragon stuff doesn't seem to be working out).

[Ser Wun Wun]

So the "Sow" that Coldhands brought back for them to eat was actually a person? I completely missed that. His chapters just took on a whole new level of creepiness...

I actually thought Bloodraven might be preparing Bran so that he could warg into him and take over his body and therefore live on. Bloodraven just didn't strike me as a good guy at first. I'm starting to rethink that though. He does seem to genuinely want to stop the Others.

And Bloodraven used to live like a normal man right? He wasn't always attached to that tree, so maybe Bran can live a normal life (as normal as a cripple can in the SOIAF universe) himself and only attach himself to a tree later in life when he is old like Bloodraven did. I would much prefer that than the idea of him being stuck to a tree for the rest of his life at only 10 years old. That's just depressing.