[ADWD SPOILERS] Tyrion 5

[A Redeemed Hound]

Okay, I have a legit question. At first I loved that Tyrion figured out who Young Griff and Old Griff were. But how did he figure any of it out? I did not come accross any clues he had or anyhting. It was kind of a Scooby Doo moment to me. No way is the half maester telling Tyrion about the Griffs over a game of chess/cyvasse. Did I miss something? :dunce:

[malarky1231]

If u read his earlier chapters, he immediately becomes suspicious when he notices that YG is being taught the seven by a septa, tutored by a Maester, and trained in arms by Duck, when it could've been from any other sellsword. Why on earth would a sellsword's son need all this? We can deduce that YG is someone important. Also Tyrion notices that Grif gives orders like a lord does, so much that at first Tyrion calls Griff my lord. Griff immediately tells him that he is no lord, and Tyrion says that is as likely as saying I'm not a dwarf.

Also he notices YG indigo eyes, a prominent Targ trait. This along with his blue dyed hair, and his upbringing convinces him that this is Aegon and that griff is Connington. The griffin is also the symbol of House Connington. I do think the Maester confirmed his suspicions after the cyvasse game. It had to be where Tyrion already knew enough to the point that the halfmaester couldn't deny it. I think he just needed that final confirmation in order to lay the cards out on the table

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Okay, I have a legit question. At first I loved that Tyrion figured out who Young Griff and Old Griff were. But how did he figure any of it out? I did not come accross any clues he had or anyhting. It was kind of a Scooby Doo moment to me. No way is the half maester telling Tyrion about the Griffs over a game of chess/cyvasse. Did I miss something? :dunce:

I think the half maester did tell him, whether directly or indirectly. He probably asked the question in such a way that he would know whether or not he admitted it directly.

[A Redeemed Hound]

If u read his earlier chapters, he immediately becomes suspicious when he notices that YG is being taught the seven by a septa, tutored by a Maester, and trained in arms by Duck, when it could've been from any other sellsword. Why on earth would a sellsword's son need all this? We can deduce that YG is someone important. Also Tyrion notices that Grif gives orders like a lord does, so much that at first Tyrion calls Griff my lord. Griff immediately tells him that he is no lord, and Tyrion says that is as likely as saying I'm not a dwarf.

Also he notices YG indigo eyes, a prominent Targ trait. This along with his blue dyed hair, and his upbringing convinces him that this is Aegon and that griff is Connington. The griffin is also the symbol of House Connington. I do think the Maester confirmed his suspicions after the cyvasse game. It had to be where Tyrion already knew enough to the point that the halfmaester couldn't deny it. I think he just needed that final confirmation in order to lay the cards out on the table

I'll go with what you said. But it's all still pretty weak to me. Why would anyone think Aegon would still be alive? It's just a stretch for me to think that anyone could just say well you have indigo eyes and are being taught about 7 gods. You must be Aegon and the baby killed must have been a ruse. I still like the fact that he is Aegon but I do not like how it was found out because none of those clues would have led anyone to come up with the answer that Tyrion came up with.

[Windchaser]

I'd heard about the baby-switch theory here just a few days ago, but my jaw still dropped when Tyrion told him what he'd figured out. It seems rather...unbelievable, but I'll take it as face value for now. It will allow me to be surprised again if Young Griff isn't baby Aegon after all.

But damn, if I'm not immensely impressed by Varys and Illyrio's plotting. They're winning that little game of thrones.

The end of the chapter had me on tenterhooks though. Ye gods, I hope Tyrion wasn't infected by that stone man.

Being familiar with that genre of horror I kept seeing the stonemen as this world's version of zombies. Certainly came off that way when they came by that bridge a second time and they leaped down and goodness. I was so very tempted to flip forward to check for next Tyrion chapter to see what happened (uh, I guess I was semi spoiled by that misplaced comment in this thread though. :P)

Hands down, one of my favorites so far.

[The Adequate Jon]

If Lemore is actually Ashara Dayne, the reason she is there is that Young Griff is actually her son. The silver hair and purple eyes could have come from the Daynes as well as the Targs.

[witless chum]

I'd always totally discounted the Baby Aegon thing, but if Varys is a Targ loyalist all along, it would be childishly (teehee) easy for him to pull off some baby-switching between whenever the news of Rhaegar's death at the Battle of the Trident reached King's Landing.

I think he's the Mummer's Dragon, despite being a real Targaryen, because a Targ with dragons beats a Targ without.

And Aegon is definitely the rightful heir to Aerys, if you go by War of the Roses era England. Richard II succeeded his grandfather Edward III (Richard's father, Edward the Black Prince died before Edward III by a couple of years), despite having several uncles around. He was deposed by his cousin, who became Henry IV.

[PetrusOctavianus]

It seems like Illyrio is more fond of Young Griff than Jon Connington is. Also, the statue in Illyrio's garden must be Young Griff, as Illyrio himself was poor when he was sixteen, so it seems unlikely that he modeled for the statue. EDIT: of course, he could have bought the statue after he got rich.

This suggests that Young Griff was either raised by Illyrio who grew to love him as a son, or else Young Griff is in fact Illyrio's own son, and his and Varys' master plan is to seat Illyrio's son on the Iron Throne under the pretense that he's Aegon the rightful heir to Aerys.

[The DragonKnight]

I can barely believe it. First plot twist. There has been no evidence supporting the baby is still alive theories.

This plot twist came out of nowhere for me. Tyrion seems to have immense powers of perception.

[Bale Dayne]

I'm pretty uncertain, given the vision of the mummer's dragon. Quaithe certainly doesn't seem to think that the Griffin has much good for Dany. Then again, Quaithe doesn't have much good to say for the Sun's son or the Lion, either.

Stupid useless Quaithe!

Anyway, I found an annoying editing error here. I spent most of the first four chapters assuming Young Griff was a Blackfyre scion that his dad was hoping to groom into Dany's husband. Then toward the beginning of the chapter, before we've learned who Young Griff is supposed to be, it has him say something but instead of saying 'said Young Griff' or 'said the young man' or whatever, it said 'said the prince'. Except that Martin hadn't referred to him as the prince yet, hadn't given us that information. When I realized that the prince being referred to had to be Young Griff I thought 'oooooh shiiiiit'.

Bahimiron I noticed that typo, too. I have Kindle version, do you, or is it a universal typo?

[nya across the narrow sea]

Surprising that no one else has addressed this but - does anyone have any idea why they seemed to be going around in circles in The Sorrows? As I recall, it was some sort of weird loop where they passed everything twice, including the Bridge of Dreams (where they were attacked the second time) and I believe they also saw the ship Kingfisher again. What in the world is going on there? Did they just go around in a circle, or is it something more sinister/supernatural? I definitely got the creeps through this whole chapter. GRRM is so good at creating sinister atmospheres.

[DLight]

Bahimiron I noticed that typo, too. I have Kindle version, do you, or is it a universal typo?

It's in the print version, too. When I read it, I did a double take but after rereading it a half dozen times, I came to the opinion that since it was Tyrion's POV and Tyrion's inner thoughts, he saw YG as Prince Aegon at that point ... and then went on to explain it all later.

What a creepy place!! I'm wondering if all that floating around in circles will be explained or if it will just be left as a mystical effect.

I can accept the whole baby swap thing. GRRM set it up in AFFC when he discussed the double that the Imp sent with Myrcella to Dorne. It's accepted that royalty will have doubles so that if there is a threat to their lives, they can be swapped. Is Princess Rhaenys still out there hiding under a rock somewhere?

[katno]

So, on a completely different note, anyone got any clues on Tysha? GRRM is mercilessly mentioning her; she has to be tied up at some point in the plot don't you think? Tyrion is nursing many, many hurts right now, I think its fair that this new one should be somewhat healed/resolved?

Although saying that, I have no idea how, unless Tysha made some very important friends after tangling with the young Lannisters and will meet Tyrion on an even playing field...which is unlikely, but hey, this is ASoIaF :P

[Lady Snark]

My jaw hit the floor on this twist. Never saw it coming. I really hope this turns out to be false. Mostly because I am an adamant believer of R+L=J and another secret hidden Targ coming out of the woodwork doesn't work for me.

Also, I do not trust Varys and Illyrio as far as I could throw them. I could see them finding some random baby and cooking up this plot where they raise the babe to believe he is Aegon and they saved him. They didn't want to put all their eggs in one basket, just in case Robert was successful in killing Viserys and Daenarys. Little Griff is their backup plan.

But if there needs to be three heads of Targs to the dragon, I suppose there is room for both Jon and Lil Griff. However, it just takes away from Jon's significance when (hopefully) it is revealed that he is the son of Rhaegar/Lyanna.

[Tammy]

If Lemore is actually Ashara Dayne, the reason she is there is that Young Griff is actually her son. The silver hair and purple eyes could have come from the Daynes as well as the Targs.

It would be interesting if Lemure is Ashara Dayne, but then why would she trick her so into believing he's really Aegon?

I can't wait to get some more details on how the baby switching took place because it just feels a bit too contrived.

[Jory's Shade]

YG=BA is great stuff. I was not surprised but satisfied. I don't want it to be misdirection. The Dragon has three heads.

FWIW: I don't trust Quaithe. She is the one double dealing Dany. The "Lion", "Griffon", "Mummer's Dragon" and "Pale Horse" are all likely helpful to her quest, and Quaithe is in league with the Shadow/Others. I put Quaithe in league with Pyat Pree and Xaros -- not to be trusted.

Also, is greyscale supposed to be leprosy? And if so, I sure hope that Tyrion didn't catch it from the stoneman when they went into the water.

[carmocodran]

This character could be more evidence that R+L=J may not prove true. All the prophesies that people have attributed to Jon are much more suited to Young Griff.

I think it actually suits more to jon now, since Aegon is Rhaegar first born he'll be king and Jon'll be the prince that was promise, also the song of ice and fire fits the Targaryen-Stark more than Targaryen-Martell imo.

[Moester]

Surprising that no one else has addressed this but - does anyone have any idea why they seemed to be going around in circles in The Sorrows? As I recall, it was some sort of weird loop where they passed everything twice, including the Bridge of Dreams (where they were attacked the second time) and I believe they also saw the ship Kingfisher again. What in the world is going on there? Did they just go around in a circle, or is it something more sinister/supernatural? I definitely got the creeps through this whole chapter. GRRM is so good at creating sinister atmospheres.

I agree, it was very creepy!

Anyway, I did the whole jaw-dropping thing when Tyrion confirmed his beliefs.

My jaw hit the floor on this twist. Never saw it coming. I really hope this turns out to be false. Mostly because I am an adamant believer of R+L=J and another secret hidden Targ coming out of the woodwork doesn't work for me.

Also, I do not trust Varys and Illyrio as far as I could throw them. I could see them finding some random baby and cooking up this plot where they raise the babe to believe he is Aegon and they saved him. They didn't want to put all their eggs in one basket, just in case Robert was successful in killing Viserys and Daenarys. Little Griff is their backup plan.

But if there needs to be three heads of Targs to the dragon, I suppose there is room for both Jon and Lil Griff. However, it just takes away from Jon's significance when (hopefully) it is revealed that he is the son of Rhaegar/Lyanna.

See, this is the problem with fan theories. Hype the R+L = J theory to epic proportions and people will start to believe it. Granted, GRRM did throw out some hints, but if there's anybody who could turn something on its head it's him. For all we know he probably had the characters on the sixth and seventh book on completely different paths to what he originally intended just to piss on people's theories.

[patdzon]

Aegon! Wow....I love surprises. I don't like to form theories, It's better to just read along and have your jaw dropped!

[DragonDreams]

What about Yandry and Ysilla? Tho there seems to be no secret about them they clearly are Orphans from Dorne returning to the Rhoyne. Could this imply that Dorne helped with the switch? And lends some credibility to maybe Lemore=Ashara?