[ADWD SPOILERS] The Lost Lord

[malarky1231]

She is dead, Jon Connigton regrets how Elia and Rhaenys couldn't be saved in this chapter. Interestingly enough he also makes a reference to Arthur Dayne. He noted that the camp set-up would be something even Dayne approved. I guess can take it that Dayne is an excellent battlefield commander/tactician

[Spacelord]

At the end of the chapter I thought immediately that connington should just chop his hand off!

[NW Deserter]

Don't forget, if Aegon really is Aegon, then he's Doran's nephew. I can't imagine that Doran would fail to support one of Elia's children. That said, he seems to be a suspicious guy, and it is entirely possible that he won't believe that Aegon is Aegon.

Also, even under Dornish law, Aegon's claim to the Iron Throne precedes Dany's. Remember, as Rhaegar's son, he takes precedence over the rest of Aerys' children. If Rhaenys were alive, she would precede Aegon by Dornish law, but she at least seems to be really truly dead.

Oh durr, I guess they still honor children as far as succession goes. I'm dumb.

But yeah I doubt Doran knows about Aegon or he wouldn't've bothered investing in Quentyn's quest.

One other interesting thing to note about this chapter is that we see more of Varys' ridiculous amount of planning and foresight from yet another character. The Spider's web just keeps expanding! I hope he turns up again at some point.

[whatagaff]

This chapter is really where I started to enjoy the book. Whereas in this point in Feast you haven't really learned anything new, aside from some Ironborn chapters, here you are getting a taste of the chaos that Dany's taking, and ruling, of Mereen has done to the Free Cities. She is really mucking up everything over there.

If Aegon and the Golden Company land in Dorne and combine forces I don't really see how they can be stopped on their march to King's Landing. As long as he doesn't die on the way there, he would be crowned for sure. The Tyrells and Lannisters would be taken entirely unawares, especially with what would be happening after Cersei and Margaery's trials. Holding the city might be a bit tricky, but getting there is easy.

It also seems that the Golden Company really has their stuff together, I would take their numbers (10,000?) against twice that. The fact that Griff thinks of Arthur Dayne when seeing the encampment also gives me the thought that Lemore might be Ashara. I like the idea of it, but not that things have been falling into place so easily for Martin. He might have fallen in love with too many of his characters.

[Iotun]

I don't like Young Griff / Aegon (if that's who he is). He's just so... one-dimensional as a character, he does nothing for me. He just gives me this impression of a spoiled brat who grew up with an enormous sense of entitlement, with people who were willing to give him everything because of their devotion to this archaic notion of the royal bloodline. He's not likable - and I personally hope that he ends up nothing more that a plot mechanism, a way to move the story forward to some dramatic fashion before he's killed off - something like Drogo in the first book for example. I also don't really like that he even exists - I liked it more when Dany was the last of the Targaryens. Oh well.

As for Lemore, I also actually really though that she could be Lyanna. Remember we don't know her age, just an estimation from Tyrion. And we know she rides with the closest friend of Rhaegar, that she is very good looking even at a fairly advanced age, and that she seems to have some temperament in her. We also know she was pregnant, and we know from Ned perspective how we was anxious to return her bones to Winterfell. Perhaps he did not want anybody examining her body. Perhaps part of the promise was not just to protect Jon, but not to make her marry Robert. Do we actually have it in Neds thoughts that Lyanna died, or just what he says? The only question is, why not take Jon with her (unless Jon really is Ned's bastard, which would in fact piss me off, as it would be Martin just using a red herring to mislead us in the last 4 books).

Interestingly enough, the Golden Company won't be helping Dany now. I love this sense of pressure building up... I am really getting this sense of a massive conflict building up around Dany, a great war that will dwarf what we've seen in Westeros so far. Dany's actions seem to have ripples throughout the world now, whereas the conflict for the Iron throne was purely a local affair, and what's about to come will be huge... There's definitely that 'just one more page' element in this book that Feast did NOT have...

[luizfar]

Another targ (if he's the real deal) is a little too much deus ex machina.

I don't think so, people were writing theories about baby Aegon being alive even before AFFC was released.

In the field of theories, if Lemore is Ashara Dayne, could R + L = Young Griff?

I remember reading a theory here in the forums before ADWD came out, saying that Ashara had taken Lyanna's son to Essos.

Has anyone noticed that Griff thinks "every man must die"? Valar morghulis.

I may have missed something, but where the hell is Blackfyre - the sword?

If I remember correctly Bitterstill brought it to Essos when he went in exile, right? So it should be related to the Golden Company somehow.

[veedonfleece]

Not sure if I like the developments. I rather preferred when those who were considered dead - remained dead. Next thing we'll have Rhaegar showing up like "yo that was actually some other dude with rubies on his armor..." /hate

Lol I agree with you : without major foreshadowing this type of thing simply appears too random to be satisfying.

[AlexWolfe]

Lol I agree with you : without major foreshadowing this type of thing simply appears too random to be satisfying.

There's a huge difference between a random event without any foreshadowing and an event that is unpredictable because of incomplete information. The Aegon reveal is the latter. It fits so much better with a vision of a clever Varys. Just because this was impossible to predict doesn't make it random.

You can imagine, if the series was a trilogy as originally planned, this being one of the big reveals of the second/third book. It's a classic bait-and-switch: in the first book, it feels like Varys and Illyrio are putting all their hopes on Dany, as she's the only character we know about... but in reality, they care about her so much because she is an integral part of their true plan -- deadly weapon with the horselords at best, to pave the way for Aegon, or an adept smokescreen otherwise.

I admit though that with all the story lines between them from the first four books, this one doesn't feel as tightly plotted as it must have when Martin originally conceived it. I still think it's a fantastic development though.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

CRAZY THEORY #5019384

Lemora is really Ashara Dayne.

Young Griff is really the son of Ashara Dayne and Ned Stark.

[The Oncoming Storm]

But how did Connington get the greyscale when Tyrion did not? Is Tyrion just immune?

False Dmitri to the win! Too bad Robert is dead and he never felt any remorse for the killing of Elia and her children, or else we'd have a nice Boris Godunov homage.

[katala]

'A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly'

this is from one of the prohecies at the citadel and after reading this chapter I am thinking it refers to Jon Connington and his greyscale.

[veedonfleece]

There's a huge difference between a random event without any foreshadowing and an event that is unpredictable because of incomplete information. The Aegon reveal is the latter. It fits so much better with a vision of a clever Varys. Just because this was impossible to predict doesn't make it random.

You can imagine, if the series was a trilogy as originally planned, this being one of the big reveals of the second/third book. It's a classic bait-and-switch: in the first book, it feels like Varys and Illyrio are putting all their hopes on Dany, as she's the only character we know about... but in reality, they care about her so much because she is an integral part of their true plan -- deadly weapon with the horselords at best, to pave the way for Aegon, or an adept smokescreen otherwise.

I admit though that with all the story lines between them from the first four books, this one doesn't feel as tightly plotted as it must have when Martin originally conceived it. I still think it's a fantastic development though.

Yes, well pinned down.

I think there's less than the thickness of a cigarette paper between us on this.

I found the execution of this device a little unsatisfying and reflected that things like this can appear too random when not properly foreshadowed - when they seem to appear out of almost nowhere. (Note I didn't say are random but 'appear' random - I would qualify this further now with 'can appear too random' based on the excellent reflection on 'expanded plot distance' that you pointed me to.

It is the execution rather than the device itself which left me a bit dissatisfied and largely for the reasons you say.

Thanks for the post.

[TheEvilKing]

House Blackfyre is extinct. When the last blackfyre pretender died the house died out. Maybe I'm wrong but Aegon seems to be the real deal. He has his father's eyes, and there really isn't any way to prove he isn't Rhaegar's son. last time anyone saw him he was an infant.

Don't know about that old fellow. Did you read Quaithe's prediction to Dany? Along with the kraken, griffin, mummer's dragon etc there's a "dark flame".

[Brewmaster]

It's definitely unexpected... but when I think of deus ex machinas, I think of random events added to solve a problem the writer put himself into. This definitely feels like something Martin has had up his sleeve for a long time. I really like the development because it changes my viewing of events prior to it (no small feat with the size of this series) while still remaining true to the story. That adds a lot of depth. All the explanations for keeping Aegon hidden (he's young, he would draw attention/assassination attempts to himself, there is no potential for gain in revealing his heritage) fit with why we haven't heard from him.

It makes me fear Varys even more, knowing he didn't put all of his eggs in one basket. If Daenery's died, and Varys might have expected her to at different points in the story, it wouldn't have been a total loss. Putting Viserys and Dany into a plot with the Dothraki seems like a long shot. Illyrio and Varys knew Visery's personality (the reveal of Visery's trying to take Dany at her wedding was illuminating), and they put all their hopes for reclaiming Westeros with a Targaryen into him and Dany? i don't buy it. I also don't buy that Varys or Illyrio really wanted to see a bitter, vengeful Viserys on the throne, especially since they had another well-balanced Targaryen being groomed for true command in the background.

Best case scenario when they made their plans would be for the Dothraki to raze the seven kingdoms... and then have Aegon emerge as a well-groomed prince. Viserys would have made a good tool for conquering... but as a ruler, he was certainly expendable.

After this book I really want to go back to the other books and see if this hasn't been somehow hinted at.

Aegon's situation also sets up interesting parallels with Robert's bastards.

Just how many steps ahead of everyone are Varys and Illyrio? Just how far ahead are they looking? While Davos has been critical in getting one of Rob's bastards to safety, Varys got Gendry out of King's Landing. True, Robert's bastards aren't legitimate heirs, but it makes you wonder if Illyrio and Varys just plan on having these contingency progenies around if they need to sow rebellion and if they need to dispose of kings.

After hearing Illyrio's tale of the two of them raising up from street criminals to the world's most powerful thieves, and now political shadow-figures, this book is beginning to give me the impression that when all is said and done this is going to be the story of Illyrio and Varys.

[Brewmaster]

In the field of theories, if Lemore is Ashara Dayne, could R + L = Young Griff?

I remember reading a theory here in the forums before ADWD came out, saying that Ashara had taken Lyanna's son to Essos.

Its kind of a poetic theory, if true, though that makes me doubt that it will actually come to pass.

But, it could mean a very similar parallel to the decision Jon just made at the wall...

Ashara gives birth to Jon, Lyanna to Griff. In order to spirit Griff away, he needs a milk-mother. Ashara then can't stay home and raise Jon, leaving Ned "stuck" raising his bastard. Or more to the point, perhaps Ashara won't leave with Griff unless Ned promises to raise Jon, knowing that by her faking her death and leaving a bastard behind, there isn't going to be any kind of a life for Jon.

It works, though it begs the question of why it had to be Ashara that leaves with Griff. If they could find a milk-mother for Jon in Wylla, why not find someone other than Ashara for Griff?

But like I said, it seems clear that Jon is becoming more and more like Ned and he was just complicit in one baby swap...seems likely that Ned could be complicit in another.

[DaeneryStormBorn]

Ladies and Gentleman, we have a Targ on the loose... This is really cool. I hope that he is the character that the prophesies all talk about, and he doesn't just wind up cannon fodder along the way.

Congrats SFDanny you nailed it!!!!

[DaeneryStormBorn]

At the end of the chapter I thought immediately that connington should just chop his hand off!

Um Is Jon Connigton Gay??? Is Rhaegar the apple of his Eyes??????

[Xray the Enforcer]

yes, Connington is gay. GRRM confirmed this at the NYC signing.

[malarky1231]

That's one more couple that went under my gaydar. Where are the hints? It seemed like they were just close friends

[NW Deserter]

Wait...what? Rhaegar and Connington were lovers? :shocked: