[ADWD SPOILERS] The Ghost in Winterfell / "There must ALWAYS be a Stark in Winterfell

[LordAlexOfTheWolds]

The old gods sensed an imbalance in the force and sent back an old stark to bring balance to the force.

[bemused]

I've been following this ,but had no time for posting. I found buried treasure's genealogical post very well thought out and rational.. however , throw magic in the mix ,and I still feel there's something in the blood that survives through many ,many generations and responds to specific magical threats.

I think the Starks themselves are unaware of the import of There Must Always be a Stark in Winterfell. Over time it has just become another maxim. So when Ned speaks it to Cat , even he doesn't know how imperative it is.

A lot has been forgotten about the nature of the wall too , much of it's history having passed into folktale , and though maybe oft repeated , little understood.

If anyone remembers or understands it would be the CoTF, and by extension BR and now Bran. I'm expecting whatever it is to come to light . and I expect that Bran is not the only Stark that needs to be in a specific place.

I thought it was interesting that in an early Sam POV in ADWD, when he's telling Jon what he's discovered in the old records , he mentions that Jon is not the youngest LC to have led the watch. There have been 3 or 4 younger ..one as young as 10 ! ... all boy LCs and all Starks. It seems notable that at a time much closer to the long night and a time when the watch was more fully manned ( not just by criminals ) that 10 - 14 yr olds would be elected LC.

(In Jon's POV covering the same conversation , that part doesn't stand out to Jon at all and he just doesn't take it in. )

I really expect it will be true that as the wall was raised incorporating magic, so was WF..and I've come to suspect that there is something akin to the Black gate deep in the crypts ( a gate , a door a who knows what ) that will only respond to a Stark , as the Black gate is attuned to a sworn brother of the NW.

So I like redriver's thought about the blizzard .. whether it has anything to do with the Old Gods , or the spell s incorporated in WF greatly increasing what naturally wants to happen anyway , who knows ?

[Ser Pollo Loco]

The old gods sensed an imbalance in the force and sent back an old stark to bring balance to the force.

Dany is our last hope......No, there is another

[Pelican]

redriver: In the story,when the snows arrive Roose blames Stannis,-"He is a stranger here and the old gods will not suffer him to live."

But the real intruders are the Boltons,taking over Winterfell and conducting a marriage to a fake Stark before a weirwood.I propose that this is what the old gods will not suffer,and now Winter is unleashed...

Is this to say that the snows will melt if a Stark retakes Winterfell? ...

Anyway,this is to put a little more meat on the bone of the idea that the spot of bad weather we are seeing at the end of ADWD is emanating from the vicinity and events at Winterfell.

bemused: If anyone remembers or understands it would be the CoTF, and by extension BR and now Bran. I'm expecting whatever it is to come to light . and I expect that Bran is not the only Stark that needs to be in a specific place.

I thought it was interesting that in an early Sam POV in ADWD, when he's telling Jon what he's discovered in the old records , he mentions that Jon is not the youngest LC to have led the watch. There have been 3 or 4 younger ..one as young as 10 ! ... all boy LCs and all Starks.

Sometimes in the series I've felt like there was a consciousness to Westeros (sort of like the Gaia notion for Earth) -- it just seemed like it functions like a person (the broken arm, the neck, the fingers, and all the emphasis on faces, particularly in the first book, and Dany's disturbing vision of the woman being attacked). Although I don't think that's exactly what redriver is getting at, the description makes Winterfell sound like a soul that's dying away. It makes sense that Winterfell is a source of what's happening for some reason. (And I do think the name is a clue.)

To bemused's points about the young LC, there are a lot of Lost Boys, good and evil, running around in this series. Maybe one of them is part of the pact/past mystery/whatever. [My own bias is to worry about the Children of the Forest -- I suspect there aren't that many left and the ones who remain have had centuries to dwell on retribution. I wouldn't trust their promise in any pact.]

My crackpot-in-progress for what may be involved in the pact/mystery/whatever and caused the imbalance that is tipping everything over: Too much messing around with nature's division between life and death. Too much blood magic. I think Marwyn was the one who turned Varys into a eunuch -- and if we can find out what that blood magic was used for, maybe there's a trail that leads to Winterfell and what appears to be the Northern version of the Doom.

[redriver]

Sometimes in the series I've felt like there was a consciousness to Westeros (sort of like the Gaia notion for Earth) -- it just seemed like it functions like a person (the broken arm, the neck, the fingers, and all the emphasis on faces, particularly in the first book, and Dany's disturbing vision of the woman being attacked). Although I don't think that's exactly what redriver is getting at, the description makes Winterfell sound like a soul that's dying away. It makes sense that Winterfell is a source of what's happening for some reason. (And I do think the name is a clue.)

To bemused's points about the young LC, there are a lot of Lost Boys, good and evil, running around in this series. Maybe one of them is part of the pact/past mystery/whatever. [My own bias is to worry about the Children of the Forest -- I suspect there aren't that many left and the ones who remain have had centuries to dwell on retribution. I wouldn't trust their promise in any pact.]

My crackpot-in-progress for what may be involved in the pact/mystery/whatever and caused the imbalance that is tipping everything over: Too much messing around with nature's division between life and death. Too much blood magic. I think Marwyn was the one who turned Varys into a eunuch -- and if we can find out what that blood magic was used for, maybe there's a trail that leads to Winterfell and what appears to be the Northern version of the Doom.

I like the "embodiment" angle you make,and you're right,it's already there.I do think Martin is making a gaia parallel,in that what we do by industrialization in our world,the political forces in Martin's world are doing by blood magic the same thing,a dissociation from nature.

In book terms,the payback seems to be happening now,whilst everyone seems to be fixated on timelines and when the Wall was built.

[bemused]

I don't worry about retribution, exactly, from the CoTF... They're resigned to their inevitable fate. Their concern , I think ,is the survival of "Gaia", retribution or no. Perhaps after the Long Winter, they only managed to bind up her wounds without a real healing.. if there are very few of them left, this may be their last chance to work a lasting remedy ...and men are not likely to do it on their own , once the CoTF are really gone. ( They're not even likely to see it needs doing).

I don't see the young Stark LCs as Lost Boys. I feel quite sure their families knew where they were and maybe why ( beyond mere tradition ) , since they were in command far back in the history of the Watch. We know that in those times the watch had many more volunteers, from noble houses as well as ordinary folk. People would have been more aware of the serious nature of the watch . So, for such a body of men to elect a 10 yr. old .. he must have been quite remarkable for his abilities and accomplishments .. or, as a Stark, attuned to the magic of the wall itself.

Sam's discovery of the boys seems important to me ( if not to Jon , yet) and lends a portentious weight to both these statements , " There have always been Starks on the Wall." and "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell."

ETA: ... Re : Blood Magic.. I meant to say I've always felt uneasy with the way many posters assume the old gods demand blood sacrifice.. I don't feel Bran's reaction to the sacrifice he witnesses , "No , don't! " , is just a child's squeamishness. It may not be only his reaction , but a collective reaction reverberating through the weirwood . The entrails strung on the tree in WH may have been what a lot of hard , bloodthirsty men thought would be pleasing to the gods (it was obviously satisfying to them), without being based on any real religious requirement.

I always thought the idea of blood sacrifice was something men brought with them to Westeros.

[Pelican]

I'm not sure that Winterfell's role came about as a pact between conflicting sides or a resolve by one side to stand against the other or what, but I agree that something apart from normal existence is going on. ['Embodiment' is a better word for what I was describing, and it's probably not accurate to say that Winterfell's 'soul is dying.' But it's not its usual self these days.]

I deeply distrust the COTF and worry that the ones who remain may not be completely rational by now. But I agree that they still would want to protect the natural world.

My reference to 'blood magic' wasn't so much the sacrifices -- although it's an interesting question as to whether the old gods truly ever wanted them. I mean that the natural balance between life and death is being meddled with by people like Qyburn, and possibly Mirri and Marwyn. The Kiss of Life cannot have been designed as a way to enable vengeful zombies, and even Damphair is tempting fate a bit with his CPR sacraments. Too many people who should be resting in peace are rising again, and that can't be right. And I just wonder if it was the 'sorcery' done with Varys that started the current imbalance going, and if we'll see that bit of blood magic come full circle somehow.

Sam's discovery of the boys seems important to me ( if not to Jon , yet)

Sam's been making quite a few connections that Jon isn't paying attention to. That discovery does seem weird -- why would anyone give so much responsibility to a boy so young? [Maybe we should ask Bloodraven.]

Those Stark boys weren't Lost, but loads of others are in one way or another (Jon, Aegon, the Craster sons, Robert's surviving bastards -- even Ramsay, who should just stay lost.)

[Guardian of the Lhazareen]

No, no, it was Hodor developing greenseer powers and causing Big Walder's death!

No No No, it was his teleportation powers, he teloported from the cave to winterfel then pushed him of the walls.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Has anyone here even considered the possibility of Roose being behind Walder's death?

1.) String of murders already

2.) Manderly would've had motive so he could be blamed (the daughter bethrothal, the Red Wedding)

3.) A frey would be dead, so the freys would be up in arms

Roose most likely had said Walder die because Manderly would have great motive for that said walder specifically, and considering his age, would be relatively easy to silence as well. AND even if, for some reason, someone suspected the Boltons - Roose could've blamed Walder's closeness to Ramsay, "Ramsay and Walder got in an argument and it led to Ramsay killing Walder" - this is supported by the fact it's pretty clear that Roose only uses Ramsay.

And considering how cautious Roose is(returning to the Dreadfort with a decoy Roose, reminding Lord Walder at the RW that he had two Frey captives, etc.) Roose probably had emergency defense techniques all prepared as well.

It was all to get the Manderlys and Freys OUT of his castle and out to fight Stannis, where hopefully they'd all die.

Thoughts?

I feel like Lord Manderly, the other Walder, Mance and his spearwives and Ramsay would all have been too obvious for GRRM. Also, if it was a more psychological series, Theon would also be a possibility(multiple personality disorder), but since GRRM has never particularly dived into that field we know it most definitely wasn't Theon either.

So my money is on either a grand scheme by Roose to get the Manderlys and Freys into the field OR Lady Drustin(spelling?) and her own schemes, whatever they may be.

[bemused]

Well,I'm with you. I think Roose is responsible for LW's death . But I think he either had BW do the deed outright or take part in it as well .

This has been hashed out at length on other threads ( as usual, without reaching total consensus ;))... but my most likely rundown is ,

1. Ramsay is responsible for most ( if not all) of the string of deaths. ( maybe the odd one by a spearwife, and the stable collapse was likely natural ..but Theon probably makes the right association when he sees a similarity to the other string of murders when he controlled WF )

2.Ramsay and LW killed Yellow Dick. ( Roose wants the killing to stop.. things are getting too tense. Roose says all of Ramsay's men are his men , first... but that excludes the Walders, who are strictly Ramsay's prisoners. Ramsay probably came to realize YD was his father's man..(Maybe Roose asked YD to try to get Ramsay to cool it?)... There's a real aura of payback around that killing . Roose doesn't want Ramsay to have even one acolyte to help him in spreading terror( and LW has definitely become Ramsay's acolyte ), so...

3. Roose , by promising favour and advancement ( as we've seen him do with others )and perhaps some implied threat , involves BW in killing LW and cooking up the theatrical gambling story.

4. Luckily for Manderly ,the raven arrives with Stannis' whereabouts , which allows Roose to send out the troops.Until that happened, I think Roose had reached the point where , if all hell was going to break loose, at least he'd try to control the fallout. Since he trusted Manderly the least , if he had to lose someone , let it be him.

The Hooded man is , I think, connected to "There must always be a Stark..." ,but not to the murders.

[TheeMikeHoncho]

Well,I'm with you. I think Roose is responsible for LW's death . But I think he either had BW do the deed outright or take part in it as well .

This has been hashed out at length on other threads ( as usual, without reaching total consensus ;))... but my most likely rundown is ,

1. Ramsay is responsible for most ( if not all) of the string of deaths. ( maybe the odd one by a spearwife, and the stable collapse was likely natural ..but Theon probably makes the right association when he sees a similarity to the other string of murders when he controlled WF )

yeah, until proven otherwise i assume that ramsey is the killer or at least the man who gave the orders. he is after all a serial killer.

[Buried Treasure]

yeah, until proven otherwise i assume that ramsey is the killer or at least the man who gave the orders. he is after all a serial killer.

A serial killer yes, but his MO is that he likes to hunt, rape and kill girls, thats what gives him kicks.

Yeah, he kills a lot of other times too, but more for reasons, even if they aren't ones any moral person can get behind. He was the murderer last time round in Winterfell but that time he had a specific motive, he was silencing those particular individuals because they knew it was the Millers boys killed. He had the Ironborn put to death, but that was simpler than keeping them prisoner.

Why would Ramsay want LW killed for shits and giggles? The kid was his protege; Ramsay killing with LW I can see, Ramsay killing LW I can't.

[TheeMikeHoncho]

A serial killer yes, but his MO is that he likes to hunt, rape and kill girls, thats what gives him kicks.

Yeah, he kills a lot of other times too, but more for reasons, even if they aren't ones any moral person can get behind. He was the murderer last time round in Winterfell but that time he had a specific motive, he was silencing those particular individuals because they knew it was the Millers boys killed. He had the Ironborn put to death, but that was simpler than keeping them prisoner.

Why would Ramsay want LW killed for shits and giggles? The kid was his protege; Ramsay killing with LW I can see, Ramsay killing LW I can't.

yeah, he also kills for reasons, but i dont think you can rationalize a person with that is a violent sociopath. he did sent that guard out naked into the snow storm because of a innocent remark. lw also had a big mouth. so there is some reasoning for the murder. killing without or with little reason is definately possible for him, especially since he is the HNIC and can get away with anything.

[bemused]

No... I stick with Ramsay killing Yellow Dick ( either for passing info to Roose ,or for carrying Roose's wishes to Ramsay )..might have been a two man Job, and if so LW , his protege , helped.

Roose wants it hushed up to keep peace inside WF, but no, Ramsay goes around offering rewards , etc.... fanning the flames.. ( and diverting blame from himself )

Next(?) morning R&R are having a really nasty argument at the high table (Walda looks terrified..) Then BW and Hoster come in with LW's body ( BW covered in blood) and Roose and BW go into performance mode..BW pointing the finger at WH , and Roose ,speaking loudly ...( Roose ?) .. gives BW and Hosteen all the right cues ..

I think , in fact , he'd just seen to the removal of the last true follower Ramsay had. He tried to keep the lid on the powder keg, but if it had to explode, let Manderly take the damage...Roose could always blame the Freys afterwards ..( They'd been openly accusatory of Manderly all along )

Then the raven arrives .. and Roose hopes , snuffs out the fuse.. Send the Freys and WH men out and let them blow off steam in battle..

**I've corrected my self on some details since I first posted this...( just like GRRM's characters, we can't always trust our memories )... :D

[LadyMary]

A serial killer yes, but his MO is that he likes to hunt, rape and kill girls, thats what gives him kicks.

Yeah, he kills a lot of other times too, but more for reasons, even if they aren't ones any moral person can get behind. He was the murderer last time round in Winterfell but that time he had a specific motive, he was silencing those particular individuals because they knew it was the Millers boys killed. He had the Ironborn put to death, but that was simpler than keeping them prisoner.

Why would Ramsay want LW killed for shits and giggles? The kid was his protege; Ramsay killing with LW I can see, Ramsay killing LW I can't.

Ramsay is a sadistic psychopath. I don't think he needs an excuse to torture and kill, I think he needs an excuse not to. His father tightens the leash at times because even with allies all around, Ramsay is a serious liability to Roose if his sadism causes disgust, but Ramsay does what he wants when he's passive-aggressively angry at his father.

Maybe LW made a comment that let Ramsay know that he knew that Ramsay sacked of Winterfell and murdered of the miller's boys. That would be enough of a secret to kill for.

May LW kicked one of Ramsay's bitches and just pissed Ramsay off enough to kill him.

Maybe LW just got on Ramsay's nerves for some random kid reason and Ramsay killed him because he's psycho.

That being said, I still think there's someone else operating from within to sabotage Roose's plans. The hooded man is someone who knows Theon's close relationship to Robb, so, someone from Winterfell or part of the Stark (or Tully) family. I like the mysterious missing Benjen for the Ghost, mainly because I think it would take a Stark to know the secret ways in and out of Winterfell without being noticed by Roose's sentries. The Blackfish is a possibility too because he was with King Robb before Theon turned cloak, but I don't get any sense from the books that Blackfish knew how to get around at Winterfell so someone would have to smuggle him in. I suppose it could have been a random long time servant of the Starks but it seems the Ghost was more important than just a random dude in a hood.

[Paper_Wizard]

Ned back from the dead? Possible but I think it's more likely one of the living; advancing political motivations. I don't think it's Jon either. He's either dead (which I don't believe) or he inhabits the body of Ghost for a while, like the at the start of ADWD and the wildling who steals someone elses body as he dies. I always took that bit of foreshadowing to mean mirror what happens to Jon at the end

[Stark bannermen]

I just assumed the cloaked man was the Glover that was hiding out with Manderly for some reason. but I like the Blackfish and Benjen ideas.

I agree with this...

[JungWheats]

I've been following this ,but had no time for posting. I found buried treasure's genealogical post very well thought out and rational.. however , throw magic in the mix ,and I still feel there's something in the blood that survives through many ,many generations and responds to specific magical threats.

I think the Starks themselves are unaware of the import of There Must Always be a Stark in Winterfell. Over time it has just become another maxim. So when Ned speaks it to Cat , even he doesn't know how imperative it is.

A lot has been forgotten about the nature of the wall too , much of it's history having passed into folktale , and though maybe oft repeated , little understood.

If anyone remembers or understands it would be the CoTF, and by extension BR and now Bran. I'm expecting whatever it is to come to light . and I expect that Bran is not the only Stark that needs to be in a specific place.

I thought it was interesting that in an early Sam POV in ADWD, when he's telling Jon what he's discovered in the old records , he mentions that Jon is not the youngest LC to have led the watch. There have been 3 or 4 younger ..one as young as 10 ! ... all boy LCs and all Starks. It seems notable that at a time much closer to the long night and a time when the watch was more fully manned ( not just by criminals ) that 10 - 14 yr olds would be elected LC.

(In Jon's POV covering the same conversation , that part doesn't stand out to Jon at all and he just doesn't take it in. )

I really expect it will be true that as the wall was raised incorporating magic, so was WF..and I've come to suspect that there is something akin to the Black gate deep in the crypts ( a gate , a door a who knows what ) that will only respond to a Stark , as the Black gate is attuned to a sworn brother of the NW.

So I like redriver's thought about the blizzard .. whether it has anything to do with the Old Gods , or the spell s incorporated in WF greatly increasing what naturally wants to happen anyway , who knows ?

This. The Starks are literally the Wardens of the North. Something happened in their past that tied them to the responsibility of protecting the North and the Realm from some larger and more important threat. Back when men still remembered the real purpose of the Wall and the role of the Starks; when pressed they elected Starks to important positions Put all their faith into boys. We've seen from examples like Bowen Marsh and Alliser Thorne that grown men in Westeros aren't likely to do that very easily. This has happened many times in the past. Winter is coming and there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. It is known. No matter what winter will come and there must be a Stark holding Winterfell against the Others

[IRON BANK]

I'm under the impression it is theon durden, black fish, or howland reed only characters we know that wears a hood and only of 2 characters who move solo through out the series.

[FittleLinger]

I'm under the impression it is theon durden, black fish, or howland reed only characters we know that wears a hood and only of 2 characters who move solo through out the series.

In a snow blizzard it would be surprising for someone to not wear a hood.

If the hood itself is in any way signifficant, it's maybe to show us it's not a common soldier, as they would probably wear a helmet. But that's not conclusive at all - they simply might not, or wear a hood above the helmet. So I don't think the hood has any signifficance as in identifying the guy.