[ADWD SPOILERS] The Ghost in Winterfell / "There must ALWAYS be a Stark in Winterfell

[Ghost714]

Theon was with him when they were shooting down all the ravens, I believe. But if he cut off all his hair and shaved his bear off (or let it grow long) I doubt Theon would recognize him. Plus, he's probably been worn down from the running and his face must have aged immensely from it, as well as maintaining Riverrun against the seige for so long.

If the Hooded Man was able to recognize Theon(Theon now looks nothing like he use to look, back when he was with Robb), then I tend to believe Theon would have recognized the Hooded man, had the Hooded Man been some one Theon should have recognized, like the Blackfish.

[Stark@heart]

Theon's line where he thinks " Is this the murderer" not is so and so doing the murders.

I think the HM was Ned, The Ghost of Winterfell. I don't think even an iron sword could have held him back. No way is he "at peace"

[7V3N]

I think the HM was Ned, The Ghost of Winterfell. I don't think even an iron sword could have held him back. No way is he "at peace"

Ned was never vengeful. Perhaps it was a ghost of one of the Kings whose sword was stolen from the crypts? IIRC, Bran says something about it when hiding in the crypts.

[Ghost714]

Theon's line where he thinks " Is this the murderer" not is so and so doing the murders.

I think the HM was Ned, The Ghost of Winterfell. I don't think even an iron sword could have held him back. No way is he "at peace"

Ned's sword was taken anyways, when Bran and co left the cripts. Wasnt there a line about how that was one of the last Swords to bare Mikens mark. So yeah, I don't think Ned's sword was left at his statue anyway.

Regardless though, I think it's possible that Ned's ghost could appear in the future books.

[Stark@heart]

You don't think he would want revenge for Theon taking Winterfell, which led to it being burned and his smallfolk carted off to the Dreadfort by Boltons.

You don't think he'd want vengence against those same Bolton's and the Frey's that betrayed and killed his son and wife and loyal bannermen.

Then you don't know the North very well. That's Honor 101 and for the Boltons and the Freys to have the nerve to step foot on the grounds, let alone take up residence is more than can be tolerated. So for Honors sake those men left in the North able to fight have joined Stannis, not to help him win the Iron Throne but to root the traitors out of Winterfell and kill them all.

[7V3N]

That does not make Ned vengeful. When Cat told him that the Lannisters tried to kill Bran, he said that any evidence would be brought before the King and he would hope Robert was a good man. He did not say, when we get evidence then we have the right to destroy them (which is probably what his brother Brandon would have done).

I am not ruling it out, I just think Ned is less likely than the ancient Kings In the North, whose bones actually are in Winterfell, unlike Ned's.

[Abel]

i read the other threats about the HM in winterfell but they are already locked so i got to get this out here...

i believe the HM is benjen.

for one, the most obvious reason and a pretty epic line (and we love them all...) there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

never got explained and the question is why. winter is coming, kings in the north, the kings of winter, they got the blood of the First Men.

- in the theon chapter before he goes with lady dustin to the crypts and remembers about luwin telling them that the iron of the swords binding the death to their graves. iron was brought by the andals. the starks descent from the first man, although we know iron does not help against the whites, maybe the iron thing got mixed up with obsidian or valyrian steel which could actually have the power, in combination with magic, to keep the deaths where they are without burning them.

- i read the following out of the short scene containing the HM: he seems as if he has a special task to fullfill. he is not too concerned about being discoverd, swift in his business and is well orientated in winterfell. certainly the only one coming and going as he pleases and thereby knowing a secret passage (maybe the one bran discovered, so we actually know there are ways in out of winterfell apart from the official ones) because we are well informed that all the others can`t go as roose locked and guarded all the passages (abel really tries to find a way) and he has a dagger. the nightwachmen always have a dagger. he is cleary pissed of by theon, but did not know he were still alive, calling him a turncloak (implies he is a northman and loyal to the starks) and a kinslayer (okay i don`t know if a stark would call him that, but having been raised there he can be considered as brother to bran and rickon). he leaves him to ramsay, knowing his life would be far worse than death.

- we know the crypts are important. we know the godswood in winterfell is important and there are the rests of the library which was one of the oldest in westeros. a lot of reasons to be there for him besides the thing that there must be a stark in winterfell

- benjen disappeared and has to come back at some point (no i`m obviously no CH fan). some pointed out that if he is still alive he should have gone back to the watch to warn them about the WW, but maybe he was bont to a more important task also concerning the wights. maybe he knows more about the stark-whight-winter connection. besides with mormont dead and given that he really obtained more knowledge who would`ve believed him at the wall? the brothers are not really open minded. and at the moment they don`t seem to understand what`s their task at all concerning the thread of the WW. so i don`t see a purpose for him going back to the wall.

- next thing. surely he discovered at some point the CotF and maybe BR who told him the things he got to know and thereby giving him some kind of mission - explaining why he turned up in winterfell.

about davos as candidade - he`s got to bring back rickon to the story.

about the blackfish as candidate - he`s got to bring back sansa to the story.

so i don`t see them fit.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think the hooded man is either Theon's split personality, or someone banal, i.e. an Umber infiltrator. Even though I like the idea of a "Stark in Winterfell" having supernatural origins, I'm not sure I can get on board with the idea of a bunch of vengeful dead kings roaming around.

[Stark@heart]

I think there's been way too much build up about the Ghosts of Winterfell for it not to happen.

If we can have dragons, then damn it!! I want ghosts too!

Having the crypts there is one thing, if indeed something is hidden down there, but why all the talk of the Vengeful Kings of the North and how they have to be held back?

It's also very much on Theon's mind in the gift chapter. From my first reading and learning of the crypts and the legend, with Robb being named as King of North, I've hoped to see Ned and Robb return to take their revenge.

While Ned in not the sort of man to seek vengence, he is also a man/ghost who has seen his eldest son and heir along with his wife and many loyal bannermen murdered and his remaining children scattered to the four winds. He man deserves some vengence.

Neither Ned nor Robb's nor Grey Winds bones have been returned to Winterfell but there's nothing to stop their ghosts from returning.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think there's been way too much build up about the Ghosts of Winterfell for it not to happen.

If we can have dragons, then damn it!! I want ghosts too!

Having the crypts there is one thing, if indeed something is hidden down there, but why all the talk of the Vengeful Kings of the North and how they have to be held back?

It's also very much on Theon's mind in the gift chapter. From my first reading and learning of the crypts and the legend, with Robb being named as King of North, I've hoped to see Ned and Robb return to take their revenge.

While Ned in not the sort of man to seek vengence, he is also a man/ghost who has seen his eldest son and heir along with his wife and many loyal bannermen murdered and his remaining children scattered to the four winds. He man deserves some vengence.

Neither Ned nor Robb's nor Grey Winds bones have been returned to Winterfell but there's nothing to stop their ghosts from returning.

I'm not saying that something supernatural isn't going on. I'm saying that I'm not sold on the idea that the hooded man that Theon saw was a Stark ghost.

[Stark@heart]

Got ya, The Hooded Man is such as tease. I both love it and hate it at the same time. One of the reasons GRRM is one of my favorite writers.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Got ya, The Hooded Man is such as tease. I both love it and hate it at the same time. One of the reasons GRRM is one of my favorite writers.

I think it'll be something where we never find out exactly who or what it was. It's whoever you wanted it to be. :P

[scurvy]

I think the hooded man is either Theon's split personality, or someone banal, i.e. an Umber infiltrator. Even though I like the idea of a "Stark in Winterfell" having supernatural origins, I'm not sure I can get on board with the idea of a bunch of vengeful dead kings roaming around.

I agree with the Umber infliltrator.

I believe that Mors Crowfood Umber is communicating with his brother who is part of Roose Bolton's host. He entered Winterfell to plot and scheme. They will fight on opposite sides of the battle lines so as not to directly battle, but the Umbers are the Starks most loyal bannermen. The GreatJon is held at the Twins and the Umbers are part of my definition of the North. They remember.

Moreover,

In the teaser chapter Mors calls Theon Turncloak and Kinslayer. So did the Hooded Man.

There was so much debate about what kinslayer meant and how it wasn't technically true. Well,

in this case it is the repetition of the term that kind of gives away the identity of the Hooded

Man. No one else calls Theon Kinslayer. Further, as part of my Umber conspiracy theory, Mors

must have told Stannis about the Karstark betrayal. How else would Stannis have known about it.

One Umber told the other after learning it from Bolton. The Hooded Man, Mors, learned about it

and brought it back to Stannis. Finally, Mors puts boobeytraps outside of Winterfell's gates.

Manderley and the Frey host ride out, but only the Freys hit the boobeytrap. Seems like Mors

tipped off Manderley and those who are allied to the Starks are all working together. The only

thing that goes against this is Stannis doesn't yet know that Manderley is with him. But, the

Umbers could still all hate the Freys and know Manderley is at least with them on that measure

even if they don't know what side he's on with Stannis.

Several plot lines tied up with one Hooded Man.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I agree with the Umber infliltrator.

I believe that Mors Crowfood Umber is communicating with his brother who is part of Roose Bolton's host. He entered Winterfell to plot and scheme. They will fight on opposite sides of the battle lines so as not to directly battle, but the Umbers are the Starks most loyal bannermen. The GreatJon is held at the Twins and the Umbers are part of my definition of the North. They remember.

Moreover,

In the teaser chapter Mors calls Theon Turncloak and Kinslayer. So did the Hooded Man.

There was so much debate about what kinslayer meant and how it wasn't technically true. Well,

in this case it is the repetition of the term that kind of gives away the identity of the Hooded

Man. No one else calls Theon Kinslayer. Further, as part of my Umber conspiracy theory, Mors

must have told Stannis about the Karstark betrayal. How else would Stannis have known about it.

One Umber told the other after learning it from Bolton. The Hooded Man, Mors, learned about it

and brought it back to Stannis. Finally, Mors puts boobeytraps outside of Winterfell's gates.

Manderley and the Frey host ride out, but only the Freys hit the boobeytrap. Seems like Mors

tipped off Manderley and those who are allied to the Starks are all working together. The only

thing that goes against this is Stannis doesn't yet know that Manderley is with him. But, the

Umbers could still all hate the Freys and know Manderley is at least with them on that measure

even if they don't know what side he's on with Stannis.

Several plot lines tied up with one Hooded Man.

I mostly agree, but ...

The Braavosi banker knew about the Karstark betrayal and it's implied that he's the one who told Stannis, from the gift chapter. Jon sent a letter to Stannis saying the same thing, but Stannis got the letter (the black sealed one) after already hearing it from the banker. I don't think the Umbers were the ones who tipped Stannis off.

[Lord Damian]

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, might be a saying to keep the dead Starks in their crypt. Seems creepy but the children of the forrest tell Bran and his companions that the cave is warded, so the others and white walkers cannot enter the cave to pursue them. Perhaps, the Stark royal/magical blood in the living warded Winterfell. It seems a stretch but I would love to see all of the Stark kings and lords statues and direwolfs march out of the Crypt to fight their betrayers then take it to the others and white walkers.

[Buried Treasure]

The Hooded Man is wearing a hood and striding fast because they are outside in a Snowstorm. Theon had just left the Great Hall so he is probably headed in that direction, perhaps from a barracks or guard post. He puts a hand to his dagger, so he is a man used to violence like a soldier or man-at-arms. He recognizes Theon, like everybody in Winterfell can, Theon is infamous & they have been cooped up together for weeks with only limited use of Hunter's Gate for hunting parties. He insults Theon, which everybody in Winterfell does, because they all hate him. He threatens Theon, which he can get away with because they are alone, the reason Theon has not been seriously hurt by Bolton soldiers is that they would get in trouble for interfering with Lord Ramsay's pet.

There is nothing in the above that indicates the Hooded Man as anything more than a common soldier - and there are enough troops in Winterfell that Theon does not recognise them all. This man does not have to be significant, the encounter takes only a third of a page.

What is important about the encounter is in Theon's thoughts, he wonders if this man could be the killer. If Theon is speculating about the identity of the murderer during chance encounters then he cannot be the killer himself. That is the first time we can rule him out as the murderer. His previously thoughts on the subject have been very observational, we get the facts and speculation overheard in the hall but not who Theon himself thinks is responsible. That left room for being the murderer and not sharing it in his POV's. There was even possible foreshadowing that he may be responsibe - talk in the Hall suggests Ghosts may be responsible and Theon had a chapter heading entitled 'A Ghost in Winterfell'.

[lostinwesteros]

As to there always being a Stark in Winterfell, I wanted to ask a question about the dead Starks in the Crypt. In the chapter where Theon took Lady Dustin down to see the crypt, it was noted that a number of swords were missing. I'm thinking that Bran and company and also Rickon and Osha took a couple of the swords, and I know that Ned's Ice never made it to the crypts (forged into a sword for Jofforey and one for Jaime which he gave to Brienne) -- are there other swords unaccounted for? And if so, does anyone have ideas as to who has them or where they went?

Also, is it too outlandish to consider the Stark direwolves as Starks? If so, it seems both Lady and Robb's direwolf would have returned to Winterfell. It seems too farfetched to me, but I wondered if they could possibly be serving as Starks in Winterfell until there's another live Stark there.

Just wondering . . . thanks for any answers.

[Nukelavee]

I like the way BuriedTreasure thinks...it's a good point, and an important one, because it removes the stupid "split personality" arguement from the mix.

Plus, the mystery murders likely will continue, driving up the stress in WF, but Theon has left teh building.

[7V3N]

Also, is it too outlandish to consider the Stark direwolves as Starks? If so, it seems both Lady and Robb's direwolf would have returned to Winterfell. It seems too farfetched to me, but I wondered if they could possibly be serving as Starks in Winterfell until there's another live Stark there.

Grey Wind's head was sewn onto Robb's body, so I do not think either were sent to Winterfell because those Freys are real pricks. Lady, however, was killed on the King's Road and send back to Winterfell.

Eddard Stark ordered her body to be brought North and be buried in Winterfell. The guards were surprised by the order but Eddard stated: "The Lannister woman shall never have this skin." She was buried in the lichyard at Winterfell. When she arrived, Grey Wind, Shaggydog, and Summer all sensed her death and howled mournfully.

[lostinwesteros]

Grey Wind's head was sewn onto Robb's body, so I do not think either were sent to Winterfell because those Freys are real pricks. Lady, however, was killed on the King's Road and send back to Winterfell.

Ahhhhhhhh -- thanks! I had completely forgotten the Ned had Lady sent back, or what's more likely, just didn't note it as being that important when I read that first book. Thanks also for providing the exact quote.