[ADwD Spoilers] Well That Was Disappointing

[I love Cersei]

Finally done with the Dance. The book didn't hook me, I read it fast because it was my duty. Like many of you, I'm disappointed, too.

Most of the time I spend reading, I just wanted to be done with it, and counted the pages that are still left. From the start, I had the feeling that not much would be going to happen. I admit I couldn't lay the book aside easily but that was mainly because I wanted to know what happens, and I wanted to come back here to the forums to see what people think about certain things, not because I liked what I read.

Moments I liked best:

- Bran meeting Bloodraven

- Dany flying out of the pits on Drogon

- Cersei getting her Un-Gregor - at least her damn trial could have been in the book though

Apart from these, there wasn't much that moved me. Examples:

1. Jon's death (btw: birth as AA?) didn't touch me at all, because all of them POVs come back one way or the other anyway (Brienne, Davos, Theon, Asha, an endless list)

2. Stannis: the same as above

3. Quentin's chapters = filler chapters

4. Meereen: Sooo boring; hardly anything happens at all, and most of it to characters that doesn't interest me in the least - I even don't get all the names sorted in my head that are sold to me as players there. Who was the Shavepate? Was it Yurkhaz or Morghaz or Chezdhar or Reznak or Skahaz? Can you even name the free companies? I fear we will get more Meereen though, we even hadn't our attack yet. Damn it. I want my knights, I want my Westeros.

Last but not least: We got no strong ending that lets one look forward to the next installment. I'm already prepared for the next half decade of waiting, no problem at all. You say it's 10 years instead? Doesn't matter much anymore.

(Varys on stage during the murders of Pycelle and Kevan, even firing the crossbow himself? Come off it, he has men for that. The Varys I knew wouldn't take such an unnecessary unpleasantry on him for naught. What's the point of him beeing there personally? Surely not to apologize to Kevan. Had he questions for Pycelle?)

[Tom Sawyer]

Really, the main problem with the book is that it needed an ending. All that pointless exposition wouldn't have been a problem if the story had gone somewhere. The decision to get rid of the two big battles at the end and not give the main plotlines a conclusion but instead dump them in the middle was a bad decision.

If the book was too long to include them, there were other things which could have been cut - namely Jaime, Arya and Cersei. Jaime's plotline ended in book four and this book contained a couple chapters of the start of his next plotline, so they could have easily been moved to book six with the rest of it. Arya's were more of a continuation of her story from book four, with her finishing her training and becoming an actual assassin, but they were unrelated to the rest of the book and could similarly have been moved out of it to make room, just like GRRM did with the Sansa chapters he'd originally wanted to have in this book. Cersei is a bit more complicated, since she had some interactions with Kevan, who's death in the epilogue made sense, but she could have just as easily been talking to Ser Addam or some other Lannister retainer in the Sept to get unGregor into the Kingsguard and GRRM would have had a few years to do some minor retooling of the rest of her chapters to remove him from them.

If you move those out, you can add in the two big final battles with the book remaining about the same size. It also becomes more of a self-contained novel with resolutions to the plot lines in it as opposed to having a few random chapters with these other characters and the main plotlines going nowhere. I really can't figure out why the editors didn't do something like that as opposed to the horrible decision that they did make.

[Ser Pistus]

I really can't figure out why the editors didn't do something like that as opposed to the horrible decision that they did make.

One likely explanation is that this book suffered the same fate as Feast. The editors suddenly cornered GRRM: "No more waiting. Give us what you have NOW."

[Tom Sawyer]

One likely explanation is that this book suffered the same fate as Feast. The editors suddenly cornered GRRM: "No more waiting. Give us what you have NOW."

Yes, I took that into account. From what I understand, he's written these battle chapters, but they were taken out because including them made the book too long and they needed to pare something down. My point was that there's a lot of other stuff that they could have pared down instead, without even getting into rewrites to trim the fat out of the meandering exposition.

They made bad decisions about what to include and remove.

[Ser Pistus]

Yes, I took that into account. From what I understand, he's written these battle chapters, but they were taken out because including them made the book too long and they needed to pare something down.

Where have you read this? I think it is absolutely unbeleivable. Nobody is such a big fool to cut the climax if it is ready. Plus I remember an Anne Groell interview where she stated that finishing the storylines would have taken "at least another year".

[Ser Pistus]

Where have you read this? I think it is absolutely unbeleivable. Nobody is such a big fool to cut the climax if it is ready. Plus I remember an Anne Groell interview where she stated that finishing the storylines would have taken "at least another year".

This is it.

"Finishing this book where he absolutely wanted to end it would have taken probably another year and more pages than could be realistically bound between two covers. "

[Sarella Snow]

I had some of the same thoughts about the Dany chapters many of you had, they were tough-going, and I was really hoping that everyone who set out for Meereen actually would meet her -- Quentyn, Victarion, Tyrion. Poor Marwyn didn't even get a mention in Quaithe's prophecy. Did he get lost at sea? Did he never leave Oldtown? WTF? Although, I liked how it ended, with Dany riding Drogon, having a bit of a vision quest, and meeting up with another khalasar. I also like the theory someone posted above about Mirri Maaz Duur's prophecy coming true and the berries causing a miscarriage.

I *loved* the Jon chapters, though. Every ruler needs loyal friends and allies and sources of information -- Dany, Tyrion, Tywin and even Cersei understood that, but Jon kept pushing away the people who want to help him. Ned did the same thing. So, those chapters had a sense of foreboding to them. Jon sent away Sam and Aemon, he won't listen to Melisandre in spite of much evidence that she has helpful information for him, he won't eat with Pyp and Grenn, he sends away Dolorous Edd, he locks up Ghost . . .

He's right of course to bring the wildlings through the Wall, but every time he got impatient with Bowen Marsh, I just cringed. The scene at the shield hall was like the part in the Red Wedding where Catelyn hears the drum going BOOM, BOOM, and then the singer starts playing Rains of Castamere. You just know something bad is about to go down when Bowen Marsh, Yarwyck, etc start to leave the room.

There is evidence that Jon is AA, though, so I think he'll be back. My favorite part is when Melisandre is worried about Stannis and asks about the AA and the flames keep showing her Jon's face. Heh! Also, the smoking wounds were a nice touch.

Bran -- I'm a little worried that he's about to become the next Three-Eyed Crow when Brynden (Stark?) dies. He seems stuck in that cave all winter, which could be years. He's neglecting Summer, and Jojen and Meera are very worried and creeped out by the whole thing. Plus the area outside the entrance is full of wights. Good creepy, chapters.

Brienne -- what word did she shout? What about Podrick Payne? Wish he had thrown us fans a bone here!

Davos -- these chapters were great. Can't wait to see what he ends up finding at Skagos.

Aegon -- I think he's real. I think it's hard to pull one over on Tyrion, and why would Varys lie to Kevan Lannister? I can't wait to read Doran Martell's reaction.

Theon -- heartbreaking! It shows what a wizard GRRM is that we actually root for the guy. I wonder if Stannis really is dead. We know Ramsay Snow is a liar.

All in all, a decent setting up book. The chess pieces have moved a little more toward endgame. I wish there had been more resolution in Meereen, but it does seem that Dany is finally on her way West, and with another khalasar, and possibly the Second Sons to boot.

And, of course, I want Arya to come back to Winterfell as Roose Bolton's cup bearer/Faceless Man . . .

[Tom Sawyer]

This is it.

"Finishing this book where he absolutely wanted to end it would have taken probably another year and more pages than could be realistically bound between two covers. "

Ah, my bad. I misread that part and didn't see the bit where it wasn't finished and just the part where they pulled the scenes.

I guess my main problem with the editting goes back to being her not doing her job a couple of years ago and getting him on track and not needing to run into this problem in the first place, then.

[Aegon II]

At least we get to read tyrion doing parkour on Casterly Rock halls. :D

[j52y]

Really, the main problem with the book is that it needed an ending. All that pointless exposition wouldn't have been a problem if the story had gone somewhere. The decision to get rid of the two big battles at the end and not give the main plotlines a conclusion but instead dump them in the middle was a bad decision.

If the book was too long to include them, there were other things which could have been cut - namely Jaime, Arya and Cersei. Jaime's plotline ended in book four and this book contained a couple chapters of the start of his next plotline, so they could have easily been moved to book six with the rest of it. Arya's were more of a continuation of her story from book four, with her finishing her training and becoming an actual assassin, but they were unrelated to the rest of the book and could similarly have been moved out of it to make room, just like GRRM did with the Sansa chapters he'd originally wanted to have in this book. Cersei is a bit more complicated, since she had some interactions with Kevan, who's death in the epilogue made sense, but she could have just as easily been talking to Ser Addam or some other Lannister retainer in the Sept to get unGregor into the Kingsguard and GRRM would have had a few years to do some minor retooling of the rest of her chapters to remove him from them.

If you move those out, you can add in the two big final battles with the book remaining about the same size. It also becomes more of a self-contained novel with resolutions to the plot lines in it as opposed to having a few random chapters with these other characters and the main plotlines going nowhere. I really can't figure out why the editors didn't do something like that as opposed to the horrible decision that they did make.

You still could have included Cersei chapters, but taken out Arya's and Jaime's. The stuff in Cersei's first chapter could've teased Jaime's storyline for The Winds of Winter, and a pseudo-confirmation that Brienne is alive. But I completely agree, I would've preffered no Jaime and Arya (whose chapters I actually rather liked) to letting the book have more of a conclusion.

I mean, can you imagine if A Clash of Kings stopped right before the Battle of Blackwater (but still contained the final Bran, Dany, Arya, and Jon chapters)? Everyone would've complained like they are now. I really did like A Dance with Dragons, but it needed two to six more chapters (depending on how long it would take to resolve the battles for Winterfell and Meereen).

[Aquaman43]

I read the first four books a long time ago. I won’t say I forgot about them, but I just put them out of mind until I read about AGoT coming to HBO. I read a lot of Stephen King, and the Dark Tower almost killed me waiting for it and the way it ended made me scream and throw the book across the room.

I’ve also read the first two chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephen R. Donaldson, and I’m currently waiting for the final book in The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. I’m used to waiting on books.

HBO’s AGoT got me searching for the release for ADWD and I ended up here. I did a re-read of the first four prior to the release of ADWD. I have known for some time that this was a companion novel to AFfC, so I wasn’t expecting anything groundbreaking. But I enjoyed it, every second of it. Were there questions left unanswered? Does GRRM sh*t in the woods? Of course there were, like every book before it.

BTW, I love the Dornish storyline. I absolutely think Quentin’s story had to be told if for no other reason than the way Arianne Martell’s story ties to it. I love Arianne and the Sand Snakes, they make my laces tight. :leer:

[TheNorthRemembers]

Reading ASoIaF leaves me bitter. Frustrated. Angry. Depressed. If someone is too happy and you hate them and want to bring 'balance' to their life, recommend ASoIaF to them. Their mood will drop alarmingly. I am amazed at how bloodthirsty this series makes you feel. FFS, there are readers cheering cannibalism by the end of ADWD (I enjoyed reading FreyPies, but I'm aghast at myself).

By the end of ADWD, I'm wishing Jaime dies horribly, I think Theon shouldn't be done with his punishment yet and more dark thoughts about majority of the characters. This is not the kind of emotions that I want from reading a book. Any new development that threatens to ignite hope in your heart is quickly snuffed. First I started by supporting Ned (like everyone else). When he was offed, supporting Robb, Jon, Bran and Arya. At this point loyalty switched somewhat to Stannis and Renly since they were also fighting the 'bad guys'. But they were also at odds with Robb so the 'loyalty' was tenuous at best. When Renly was offed, it went to Stannis. When Stannis was defeated, Robb remained. When Stannis asked for Robb to die, there he went.

Then Catelyn pulls her stupid bullshit with Jaime and we are given his 'redemption' arc. Robb pulls some bullshit on Karstark. Loyalty takes a plunge. They die. A new load of enemies. LF appears out of nowhere and looks like he's going to use Sansa in body, spirit, mind and name. Should I hate him or should I despise him? Then we read about Cersei, Brienne, some people in Dorne, some people in Iron Islands, some obscure maesters down there, some slavers to the east, a dragon queen etc. etc. etc.

Let's recap. Bran is north of the wall going to do god knows what. Arya is across the Narrow Sea going to do god knows what. Jon is going to do god knows what. While in between, we see evry kind of betrayal, plot, sub-plot, some Templar things, undead zombies, Frankenstein, a smattering of Others.

The North Remembers apparently. Well, not nearly as much it seems to me. I read about Ryswells, Dustins, Horseheads or was that one of their banners? Some Dustin girl hates Ned and won't let his bones reach Winterfell. Did we cover some human skinning maniac? Senators Marsh, Yarwick, For Rome...no For the Watch, pardon me.

That's a rather long recap but once I step back and look at this shambles of a story, I can't imagine what to make of it. Should I care about any of these nitwits. Afterall they're just a bunch of words, nothing more. In my head, I don't even visualize a character anymore, the food they eat has more character than they do. And this constant barrage of greed, bloodlust, hatred, rage is just exhausting. Whenever, a character shows an iota of courage, some righteous (can you believe this? righteous?) character will admonish them. Look at Ellaria Sand and the Sand Snakes. A Alysanne Mormont is regarded as a She-Bear but shudders at the thought of men burning. A Kevan Lannister talks of bringing peace to the realm yet has a FrankenGregor standing next to him. A Dragon Queen allows torture of a man and his daughters, yet vows to keep peace and abandon slavery and yet ultimately does the opposite. FFS, why should I care?

At a certain point, believability gets stretched paper thin and this series is well past it. Roman slaves probably had more emotion than the characters we get to see in this story. When every positive trait is countered by scheming and betrayal rather than supported it starts to get tiresome. I am actually surprised at myself when I want certain characters to be killed off. Some may say that that shows how powerful the story is. I say, hate is the only emotion that this story inspires in me.

Thoughts?

I would agree with this. The story is stalling but there are bits of brilliant plot twists and mysteries along the way that keep us cheering. The saga rumbles on but with the lessening of mortal consequences like death and revealing secret children from nowhere, the story is really losing it's focus.

[Raksha the Demon]

I do have to wonder, if GRRM keeps killing off characters, especially the Starks, or affixes Bran to a tree for the rest of his days, and if Jon is truly dead, what was it all for? Victarion Greyjoy to crow victory over the wreckage of King's Landing? The Others and their wights to take the Wall and then Winterfell? There is only so much death, torture, and pain that I can take in a book; and Dany having sex with macho sellswords is not going to mitigate the misery....

[Lugez]

The real problem I found was that this pook had no pacing or consistency. We have some of the best written chapters in the series to date (Theon, some of Davos, others too), but then simultaneously have chapters which were incredibly painful to read (Meereen. Shavepate, Skahaz, Yezzan, Skrahz, Lo, shatatlskdjf....wtf.). ADWD was just all over the place in terms of quality.

To use an analogy: The first four novels felt like straight lines. The lines hold different weights to me, but they were all consistent. ADWD was the only one that felt like a wave. Some great parts, but some awful ones as well. It's frusterating too, because GRRM is clearly capable of writing something awesome, as can be seen in certain sections of ADWD. I'm wondering what caused him to lose focus at times. Was he distracted? Did he work too hard on it? Did he expand the story a bit too much and now he's having a hard time with it?

[John Reynolds]

This is it.

"Finishing this book where he absolutely wanted to end it would have taken probably another year and more pages than could be realistically bound between two covers. "

Does make you wonder what those two extracted sequences were though.

[Doran Doran]

Aegon -- I think he's real. I think it's hard to pull one over on Tyrion, and why would Varys lie to Kevan Lannister? I can't wait to read Doran Martell's reaction.

*pressing intercom button*

"Arianne, dear? Stop doing whomever... uh, I meant whatever your doing and come to my office. Stet. Thank you."

OT: GRRM managed to turn Tyrion into a snoozefest. Tyrion! Bad, writer, bad! No more pies for you.

[Gnomestress]

My two cents? Read it again. This time check between the lines.

I think this book was worth every second of the wait. Yes, there were a lot of plot loose ends that I hoped would be tied up but even with those storylines I enjoyed the journey.

PS - I hope Jon stays dead. Hate him, and have since the beginning.

[Raksha the Demon]

*pressing intercom button*

"Arianne, dear? Stop doing whomever... uh, I meant whatever your doing and come to my office. Stet. Thank you."

OT: GRRM managed to turn Tyrion into a snoozefest. Tyrion! Bad, writer, bad! No more pies for you.

:laugh: :rolleyes: I wouldn't say Tyrion was a complete snoozefest in ADWD, but he wasn't as proactive and purposeful as he had been in earlier volumes; and he was far more bitter; probably as a result of being falsely convicted of killing Joffrey with his own sister and father and uncle believing him guilty, and then finding out about Tysha and lying to Jaime and then murdering Shae and Tywin. Tyrion's burned his bridges in spectacular fashion, for sure. I'm not I like the new and twice as bitter Tyrion, hello, I'm Tyrion Lannister and I murdered both my mother and father and want to rape and kill my sister....

I could just see Doran saying that to Arianne, though.

[gogorath]

My criticism of the criticism of A Dance With Dragons:

It didn't go the way I wanted it to. There's a whole slew of criticisms on here that are based on expectations. Some of them decided that the book was going to be about Tyrion, Victarion, Dany and Quentyn meeting in Mereen and it didn't happen that way. Some didn't like how the characters acted. This is one of the huge gaps between the critics and some of the fanbase -- you've been theorizing for six years and to be wrong -- it's already written in your head. But that's not how the story goes for Martin. It's not a failing in the writing at all -- and I don't think any person acted out of character, because these are fleshed out characters, not archtypes, and Dany can want to free slaves and sleep with attractive men at the same time. It's simply your expectations clashing; there were no expectations through the first three books for most about what was about to happen.

There wasn't enough plot. Another gap between some fans and critics, this can manifest itself as the "it went nowhere" and "why did so-and-so's storyline exist?" I understand where it is coming from -- the pace and style of Books 4/5 is different than 1-3, where it seemed every chapter had a major plot point. In 4/5, it's more about character development than anything, along with some setting. But if 4/5 had been written in the style of 1-3, chapters would have been combined.

Would that have worked better? Hard to say, really. To say nothing happened with Dany or Tyrion is silly -- but it is a character changing and learning rather than plot. Some of my favorite plotlines and developments in the story have been pointless or gone nowhere -- Theon as Reek, Quentyn, Brienne in aFfC. None were necessary, I found all of them enjoyable. And while I would have loved to have seen more plot in this book, I wonder if the character changes would have seemed rushed.

What we can say is that Martin's style has changed, either intentionally as some have postulated (these are the pause books) or unintentionally as he evolves as a writer. it's not shocking book critics like it better than some readers.

Lack of a climax. This one is very legit, though I completely against the idea that storylines had no closure. Quentyn, Bran, Theon, Jon, Dany, Cersei, Arya, the storylines all progressed to a point, and arguably Tyrion's as well -- it's just that several times it was a mental realization. And Jon was quite a climax, no? I admit while I think he will live on in some respect, I'm not completely sold and I was still shocked it happened as it did.

Where we missed, oddly was Barristan, Asha-as-Davis and Connington -- a battle at Storm's End, Winterfell or Mereen or all three (or something) would have made the book feel like it ended better. That's the missing piece, I think.

But the real issue I agree with is:

Structure and Pace.

The split structure is still hurting the book. The smattering of Arya, Cersei, Jaime chapters amongst the rest. Having you jump back and forth at the right pace was something I think he was struggling with and it felt odd all book.

That all said, I really liked it. I don't really rank the books except ASOS as #1. Dance and Feast are just different to me, not worse or better.

[Asharak]

"Does make you wonder what those two extracted sequences were though"

Yea, a lot of people seam to think that would be 1 or 2 battles, but we have no evidence that is the case. I really doubt that GRRM will start the next book with 2 major battles in the very first chapters, that doesn’t seam like a natural way to begin a book. Writing a 1000 page book without giving a climax to the tale isn’t particularly organic storytelling either though.