[ADwD Spoilers] Quentyn Martell

[iamthedave]

That said, the insulting, demeaning, and weirdly angry attitudes toward Quentyn by some posters here are bizarre. Quentyn took a great risk. The risk he took ended up getting him killed. Does that mean that anyone who risks his life and ends up getting killed is a "moron?" Usually we call the willingness to risk one's life for an uncertain outcome "bravery." In most traditional stories and movies, "bravery" is always rewarded by success. The hero makes a gutsy call with a low chance of success, risks his life, and it always works out, he goes home and gets the girl. But of course in real life, and in Martin's world, bravery is not always rewarded by success. Does that mean it's stupid? That bravery is only an impressive quality when it works? Quentyn seemingly did manage to tame Viserion by the end of the chapter before getting roasted from behind by Rhaegal, so clearly the task wasn't impossible.

No, no, you're getting it wrong. Bravery only counts when Dany does it. Anyone who opposes Dany in any way, shape or form, or doesn't throw themselves at her feet begging to serve her in any way they can is a big meanie who deserves everything they get because Dany is incapable of being wrong or making a bad decision. Everything she does is for the best and the only possible thing that could ever be done in that scenario.

Just look at the way Brashcandy dismisses Oberyn Martell. The man who not only went into a one-on-one duel with Gregor Clegane, the Mountain that Rides (a prospect that anybody in the series would consider suicidal at best), but also proceeded to convincingly win that duel before messing everything up in the final reel.

Why does this "PR" stuff matter? Well, a basic principle of Machiavelli is that, for a leader to hold onto power, it's better for a leader to be feared by the population than loved by them -- but that the worst of all is for a leader to be hated by his population. You can see this at work in the series with Tywin (feared, effective) vs. the Freys (hated, ineffective). When a leader is hated, plot after plot gets hatched against him, rivals realize that they can harness the population's hate, people become willing to risk their lives to fight against him. There is no quicker way for Dany to become hated than to show up with 40,000 Dothraki, a ton of ironborn, and Tyrion.

Having mentioned Tywin, I'm surprised you didn't mention Tyrion himself. He was hated and effective, but only up to a point, and as soon as they could everybody turned on him, let other people take credit for his achievements, cast him out of power and tried to have him executed. Being hated really does come back to bite you, far more than being feared.

Sure, everyone hated Tywin. But who dared try to do anything about it? For all the plotting, it was Tyrion who did the job in the end (and again, he hated his father at least as much if not more than he feared him).

[Gogossos]

Hey Lost Lord I agree with you about Quentyn, taking risks and all that jazz. But you have to admit, it was a stupid move, despite his motivation. That's where the criticism stems from.

Quentyn seemingly did manage to tame Viserion by the end of the chapter before getting roasted from behind by Rhaegal, so clearly the task wasn't impossible.

Not exactly. Viserion was still eating that guy when Quentyn was roasted. It's mentioned that Viserion had lost interest in Quent at that point. It went something like this.

Rheagal: What's this fool doing?

Viserion: Leave him alone, the door is open let's get out of here.

Rheagal: No, he's being disrespectful, who does he think he is?

Then Quentyn was toast. Viserion also didn't random start toasting sellswords either, he sniffed at the woman then some fool shot him and he responded by eating the fool. Everyone else ran away, except for Arch and Gerris.

Dany was never "optional," Quentyn certainly did not intend to take the dragons and fly off. This is what he thinks to himself: "And when I do, she will look at me the way she looks at her sellsword. Once I have proven myself worthy of her… Why else would Daenerys have shown me the dragons? She wants me to prove myself to her."

Maybe not flying off but he intended to put them on a cart, then on a ship before sailing to Pentos, pay his debts then on to Dorne. It was a terrible plan at best and I don't know why the Tattered Prince even entertained him, maybe because those guys take risks as a profession?

Why does this "PR" stuff matter? Well, a basic principle of Machiavelli is that, for a leader to hold onto power, it's better for a leader to be feared by the population than loved by them -- but that the worst of all is for a leader to be hated by his population.

So Dany will end up being in the "hated" category because she brought foreigners or because her army will be too ruthless? Why is Tywin "feared" and not hated? My point being, besides this being incredibly subjective, it ignores the context by the time Dany arrives. The Others could be a reality by then, the death of Kevan could unleash a lot of chaos in the Tyrell-Lannister alliance, LF in the Vale could be either fighting somebody or not in a position the tell those lords anything, Dany could offer to help the north rather than fight them, Highgarden still has the Iron Island invasion to contend with, etc. For Dany to be "hated" in the way you suggest (ie. Frey hate) she has to have everything go against her. With this limited list I've presented, would you like to bet against her odds?

[House Martell]

Certainly mistakes were made and things happened that Doran could not have foreseen but I don't think he was just sitting back while the crucial key to his revenge plans ran around Essos unprotected. I think there is some kind of Illyrio/Dorne connection. Illyrio seemed very fond of YG (who is half Dornish) and his actions of helping the young Targs, giving Dany the eggs, and initial plans of a Dothraki army make sense if he's in league with Doran. Viserys could have had his army if he wasn't such a jackass (not Doran's fault). Doran Martell was pretty much the only person Tywin Lannister seemed to respect, so I find it hard to believe he was as incompetent as some are suggesting. He took a shot with a Quent/Dany marriage, it didn't work, as some have said; who saw Dany settling in as Queen of Meereen?

As far as Quentin goes, he had to die. Dany has her army, for YG to be a player at all he needs some support, with Quent gone and any alliance with Dany shot, Dorne has to throw its support behind YG now.

As far as "Bad P.R." from the Iron Born, Dany doesn't need them, just their ships. I also don't see an entire Dothraki hoard landing on Westeros, I see her using them to conquer the Iron Fleet and maybe taking some riders with her.

Now how the YG & Dorne faction are going to interact with Team Dany I dunno, any ideas?

[It is none]

First of all, Doran was not foolish or ridiculous at all in expecting a marriage between Dany and Quentyn. That's how things are normally done in Westeros. If two houses have a marriage contract - which is at the same time a promise of alliance - between them, and then one of the two people promised to each other dies, their house offers another member in their stead. ........It's standard practice, so I don't see why Doran shouldn't have thought that House Targaryen might want to offer Dany in Viserys's stead after his death. Since Dany obviously can't marry Arianne, Quentyn was the best candidate the Martells could offer, definitely not a bad catch or an insult. Turning down a pre-agreed marriage on the other hand seems to be Westerosi for "I don't want your stupid alliance anymore"

This was a SECRET contract between Doran and William Derry- not a Targaryen- which was never revealed to either of the principals until one of those principals was dead. There is no longer a House Targaryen to offer Dany, just Dany herself. Doran's failure to act on the contract when Viserys was still alive is a example of bad faith IMHO. Even if she had known Westerosi customs, Doran's behaviour would justify her mistrust of any alliance with him.

As to Doran's acting behind the scenes to aid the two fugitive children in finding refuge- there is not the slightest hint to that in the text. On the contrary, it seems the hospitality they received was brief, insecure and up to Viserys to find.

[House Martell]

As to Doran's acting behind the scenes to aid the two fugitive children in finding refuge- there is not the slightest hint to that in the text. On the contrary, it seems the hospitality they received was brief, insecure and up to Viserys to find.

and why would anyone care about Viserys on his own? I always took their constant movement as an attempt to stay one step ahead of anyone looking for them (Robert Baratheon). You'd think 2 Targ kids running around would be pretty valuable, for them to make it they needed some help...

[brashcandy]

And a magic blood ritual, combined with a gift from Illyrio.

Again her own sweat, blood and tears. Unless you've forgotten that MMD killed her husband and unborn child and that Illyrio only gave her the eggs as a wedding gift for a marriage to a man twice her age that he had arranged for considerable gains. So I don't know if you think she's walked around getting freebies, but you need to do some serious rethinking.

If she really wanted Westeros, then yup. And why on earth would Dorne be obligated to support Dany in Meereen? They wanted to help her take the Iron Throne, not to just provide support to every other crusade Dany decided to undertake. Dany doesn't have a greater right to Dornish resources than the ruling family, House Martell.

And so Dorne has the right to Dany's dragons? I think once again you're forgetting the facts. Dany is the QUEEN. Dorne should be bending over backwards to support any such "crusade" that she is on. If you want to justify their lack of support to her cause in Meereen then fine, but every other fool like Victarion brought help. Even Aegon turned around rather than go to her empty handed. If Dany doesn't have a greater right to Dornish resources then Dorne needs to take a step back and reconsider their offer.

We don't know what her difficulties would have been because Dany never tried to get out of Meereen.

Hmmm, how convenient of you not to engage in speculation when it doesn't support your argument.

He's a Prince of Dorne! He's a very good catch. Dany's terrible taste in men doesn't mean that Quentyn wasn't a catch. :)

Dany likes men who make things happen, not naive ones who show up waving pieces of paper and expecting miracles to occur. I feel sorry for poor Quent, because Doran really put him in an awful position, and Dany was able to be kind to him. But him being a "Prince of Dorne!" doesn't mean shit in Meereen where she's trying to end a bloody insurgency and bring back peace. It doesn't even mean diddly-squat in Westeros either, where he isn't even an heir, and would have had to contend with the real heir apparent Aegon.

Absolutely. Then, if she ever moseys on over to Westeros and wants to put herself on the Iron Throne, she's going to have to content herself with being Queen of the Six Kingdoms, and cut "Queen of the Rhoynar" out of her titles, cause Dorne won't bend the knee and her three dragons, Unsullied, sellswords, and Dothraki won't be enough to make them.

Stop being naive and thinking that Dorne could withstand a full on assault. And really stop being naive in thinking that war happens in a vacuum. Not only is there a great chance that Dany would defeat Dorne, there's an even better chance that Dorne would never even bother to put up a fight. Let's remember that the reason Dorne has been so stubborn is because they've wanted revenge against the Lannisters/Baratheons. Now, these two Houses are all but finished, plus the whole point of Dornish resistance has hedged on the two Targs in exile returning to seat the Throne. What would be the point of not supporting Dany, if indeed she is able to prove that Aegon is fake? Holding a grudge because of Quentyn? Right ok. Keep believing that.

Ha. I'm on Team Jon Stark all the way.

Don't you mean Jon Targaryen? And by the way, if you're on Jon's team you should definitely understand why it is that Dany felt the need to stay in Meereen and not accept Dorne's offer. After all, Jon sticks to his vows at the wall, and refuses Stannis' offer to take Winterfell, marry Val and become legitimate. I guess you must believe that Jon is looking mighty incompetent now too, since he decided to go fight Ramsay and save Arya. At least his men certainly thought so. But nevertheless before all of this, Jon behaves in pretty much the same manner as Dany does. He sticks to where he can make the biggest change and gains respect for his actions from the lowly folk. He also faces dissent from his men, but he doesn't balk from the challenge and look for the easy when out when Stannis comes looking to use him. Which is pretty much what Dorne was looking to do with Dany. Stannis felt Jon wanted to be legitimate, Dorne felt Dany wanted to sit the Iron throne. The irony is that both of them will probably achieve these things, but it won't be through the "assistance" of people playing the game of thrones.

And if/when she finally gets around to heading for Westeros, what will she tell the people? That she's their true and rightful Queen, but their suffering wasn't important enough to her for her to come sooner? Yeah, that's going to win her the hearts and minds of the populace.

This is incredibly foolish. The people are not checking calendars ticking of the days and looking anxiously for Dany. They don't even know about her. When she comes, she'll most likely be saving from annihilation, so yeah, they'll be grateful then.

Good. So instead of doing a half-assed job in Essos, shouldn't she abandon her quest for the Iron Throne, stop calling herself Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, and dedicate herself 100% to Essos?

Why shouldn't she call herself the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms? Her birthright was stolen from her. And she is focused on Meereen. The fact that she calls herself something doesn't mean that she isn't focused on another problem that is more dire right now.

You argued that Dorne had some obligation to support Dany no matter what. That's nonsense. House Martell doesn't owe House Targaryen a thing.

Elia Martell married Rhaegar Targaryen. Meaning that her children are Targaryens. The fact that the two houses didn't get along because of Aerys doesn't mean anything and has no bearing on the fact that House Martell should support Elia's children. And herein lies the problem that I have been trying to point out: If Dany had married Quentyn, then House Martell would have aligned itself with a direct descendant of Aerys, the Mad King. Then Aegon would have shown up with both the stronger hereditary claim and the stronger sentimental one as well. Are you arguing that House Martell does not owe Aegon Targaryen anything because he happens to be Aerys' grandson?

A wonderful sales pitch to the Dornish. She should absolutely land in Westeros and tell the Dornishmen that the reason she didn't want to ally with them is because they couldn't help her like she wanted, but now they can, so of course they owe her their allegiance. Yes, I can see Arianne, Obara, Nymeria, and the rest of them just lapping that up.

She doesn't have to tell the Dornish a thing. If they can't understand that things do not run smoothly in a war, and that holding grudges really makes little sense to the larger picture unfolding before you then they are destined to be an irrelevant nation. Oops... wait... they are....

Yes, the Kingdom is fractured. But that's not a good thing for Dany---it means that certain places (the North, for example) have decided that the Iron Throne can go screw itself, they're going to rule themselves again, and House Targaryen isn't worth the trouble. That's not really a positive thing for a Dany-led campaign.

It is a fantastic thing for Dany actually. The North hasn't rebelled against House Targaryen- they've rebelled against House Lannister and all the other Houses that support it. Meaning that Dany has a chance to win their loyalties. With no strong ruler on the Throne, and with the mess that is happening in Kings Landing right now, the time is ripe for the pickings. Why else do you think that Varys killed Kevan Lannister? If a united kingdom was great for Aegon's conquest then he would have murdered Cersei instead.

As has been said so many, many times---Dorne knows that three young dragons aren't enough to take Dorne, so the Dornishmen won't exactly be quaking in fear. There are also plenty of people in Westeros who can probably take away Dany's dragons with a thought---Bloodraven, Bran, possibly Jon, maybe Arya (if she ever heads back to Westeros). Dany's dragons aren't necessarily guarantees of victory.

Do you realise that Dorne may be the furthest thing from Dany's mind when she gets to Westeros? Do you realise that you are basing all of this on the speculation that Dorne will hold a massive grudge against Dany? Do you realise that Dorne may not even support Aegon? Does it occur to you that Dorne knows of the value of dragons and that is why they wanted to get to Daenerys first? You can go on and on about how Dorne can't be conquered, but it is not a logical view if one thinks of the sheer immensity of Dany's manpower.

They have a very small foothold in Westeros. The Faith of the Seven has re-armed, the old gods are rising. I don't think adherents of those faiths are very fond of the Red God (we saw how Jon and the hill clansmen felt about R'hllor, and there's no way the High Septon will be on board with the red priests).

All this may be true. But the red priests are the only ones so far getting results. I don't think Dany will find them palatable personally, but they do have power and if they decide to unleash it in her favour, they can cause a lot of havoc.

Because everyone just loves the Ironborn. Euron and Victarion have so many, many friends in other regions of Westeros who will follow their lead and throw in with Dany. Allying with the Ironborn is guaranteeing that the Ironborn's many enemies---the Reach, House Mallister, House Mormont etc.---will bite off their own toes before supporting Dany.

I hate the Ironborn too, but this isn't about love and affection. It's about using the strategies and the persons who can assist you. You may not want to sleep with them at night, but you have to pick your battles when you can. If Victarion is able to help Dany conquer, why shouldn't she use him. She may have to execute him afterwards, but hey, that's the nature of the game. And Asha will probably get rid of Euron in the meantime. Arriving with the Ironborn will tell people that Dany is not to be messed with. She can work on winning hearts and minds later on.

So long as Marwyn doesn't let slip that he trained Mirri Maz Duur, of course.

So much the better. She'll be able to get him to work out the prophecy for her and assist her in other invaluable ways. You've really missed the point of Dany's last chapter, haven't you. This is not about burning and executing people anymore that you may find distasteful. It's about using them to help you in your quest to make things better. One cannot always draw a clear line in the sand between me(good) vs them(bad) This is what Jon realised when he brought the wildlings over.

I disagree. Littlefinger wants to make Sansa his queen and rule through her, and he can't do that if Dany is running around as an obstacle. Queen Dany and Queen Sansa cancel each other out.

Not necessarily at all. Sansa could very well end up as Queen of the North, something that Dany might see as being the best political solution.

[brashcandy]

No, no, you're getting it wrong. Bravery only counts when Dany does it. Anyone who opposes Dany in any way, shape or form, or doesn't throw themselves at her feet begging to serve her in any way they can is a big meanie who deserves everything they get because Dany is incapable of being wrong or making a bad decision. Everything she does is for the best and the only possible thing that could ever be done in that scenario.

Just look at the way Brashcandy dismisses Oberyn Martell. The man who not only went into a one-on-one duel with Gregor Clegane, the Mountain that Rides (a prospect that anybody in the series would consider suicidal at best), but also proceeded to convincingly win that duel before messing everything up in the final reel.

Having mentioned Tywin, I'm surprised you didn't mention Tyrion himself. He was hated and effective, but only up to a point, and as soon as they could everybody turned on him, let other people take credit for his achievements, cast him out of power and tried to have him executed. Being hated really does come back to bite you, far more than being feared.

Sure, everyone hated Tywin. But who dared try to do anything about it? For all the plotting, it was Tyrion who did the job in the end (and again, he hated his father at least as much if not more than he feared him).

Dave, have you and Lost Lord taken leave of your senses?? Dany is both feared and loved. A potent combination that comes from having dragons and also from trying to end slavery. She's called Mother and breaker of chains, dragon queen, etc etc... this reputation will follow her across the narrow seas. She doesn't suddenly become one person in Essos and another in Westeros because she dares to use the Iron born fleet or take advice from Tyrion. This is really absurd.

As for my opinion of Oberyn. I am well aware that he fought well against the Mountain, but he also used poison as well. Was this fighting fair? Not really, but hey, I'm not going to feel pity for Gregor Clegane. But the point is that the Mountain did kill him, and for him not to finish him off was even more stupid since now he's Robert Strong. Oberyn just seems to be the representative of all Dornish in my view: a lot of talk, some (underhanded) action, but can never finish the move when it counts. And no, unlike 90% of the fandom, I found nothing to really admire Oberyn for.

[House Martell]

As for my opinion of Oberyn. I am well aware that he fought well against the Mountain, but he also used poison as well. Was this fighting fair? Not really,

The poison didn't put Gregor on his back in the field, Oberyn cut him down, the poison just tortured him for weeks after...

[Verboten]

You're wrong brashcandy. Dany is loved by most of the slaves she freed, but she is feared and hated by the nobles of Meereen, Astapor, Ghiscari, and Volantis. Now, thanks to the actions of her dragons she can promptly add 'feared and hated by six of the great houses' to her titles. Rumours are already spreading about her alleged madness, so the houses who rose in rebellion against her father are likely to view her as her father come again. This is not a good thing, being loved by the ones with no power and hated by those who possess it.

[It is none]

and why would anyone care about Viserys on his own? I always took their constant movement as an attempt to stay one step ahead of anyone looking for them (Robert Baratheon). You'd think 2 Targ kids running around would be pretty valuable, for them to make it they needed some help...

Well, I see you are all for House Martell, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If no one cared for Viserys, why have a marriage contract? If Doran thought he was too insignificant to fulfill that contract, he shouldn't use evidence of of disdain to try and get his sister to marry into his family.

And yes, the two Targaryen kids running around were valuable, but there is no hint that they had help from Doran. There is a stronger hint that they had help from Illyrio/Varys. After all, once Dany was old enough to be a mariageable commodity, she was promptly sold off to the Dothraki for a huge marriage price that went straight to Illyrio. He housed them for the year before that marriage. He might have been the one to secretly arrange their previous stays- or not. But there is not the slightest hint in the text that Doran did anything whatsoever on their behalf.

[The Lost Lord]

So Dany will end up being in the "hated" category because she brought foreigners or because her army will be too ruthless?

Certainly the first -- any foreign invading army will be hated by the invadees. All throughout history, the quickest way to unite squabbling forces within the country is to present them with a foreign threat (that's why people think Westeros will unite to fight the Others!). If the foreign invaders are scary horse people of a different skin color with a reputation for rape and plunder who will be gobbling up scarce food supplies, that's a whole new level. And that's before even getting into what the Dothraki will actually do.

The other reason is YG. His appearance is a total disaster for Dany and completely derails her savior arc, in my view. He will likely be anointed as the "savior of Westeros" instead of Dany. He will get the credit for driving out the hated Lannisters. He (supposedly) has the rightful claim. He will have Dornishmen instead of Dothraki, ironborn, and noseless kinslaying dwarves. If Dany kills him she will be a kinslayer stealing the throne from the man who saved Westeros. If Dany fails to kill him, he'll become an underground rebel figure getting a ton of support.

Why is Tywin "feared" and not hated?

Well of course I was oversimplifying and there are elements of fear and hate, and it's different in different places. In the Riverlands, Tywin and the crown are quite rightly hated, and therefore you see rebellions like the Brotherhood without Banners.

But I say "fear" more accurately describes Westeros' view of Tywin because in most of the rest of Westeros, people don't love Tywin, but they certainly don't hate him enough to risk their lives to fight him and his power. Few people are motivated to say, "We must wage a quite possibly doomed struggle to get this evil person off the Iron Throne!" But throw racism or foreigners into the mix and often people find sudden willingness to fight.

Doran's failure to act on the contract when Viserys was still alive is a example of bad faith IMHO. Even if she had known Westerosi customs, Doran's behaviour would justify her mistrust of any alliance with him.

The book addresses this quite specifically. Dany completely understands why it was a secret and bears Doran no ill will.

The old knight read the pact slowly. “If Robert had known of this, he would have smashed Sunspear as he once smashed Pyke, and claimed the heads of Prince Doran and the Red Viper ... and like as not, the head of this Dornish princess too.”

“No doubt that was why Prince Doran chose to keep the pact a secret,” suggested Daenerys. “If my brother Viserys had known that he had a Dornish princess waiting for him, he would have crossed to Sunspear as soon as he was old enough to wed.”

“And thereby brought Robert’s warhammer down upon himself, and Dorne as well,” said Frog.

Dave, have you and Lost Lord taken leave of your senses?? Dany is both feared and loved. A potent combination that comes from having dragons and also from trying to end slavery. She's called Mother and breaker of chains, dragon queen, etc etc... this reputation will follow her across the narrow seas. She doesn't suddenly become one person in Essos and another in Westeros because she dares to use the Iron born fleet or take advice from Tyrion. This is really absurd.

Brash, the slaves in Volantis may be "waiting" for Dany but there are no slaves in Westeros. As for Dany's reputation, check out the stories Quentyn hears about Dany in the Windblown, including from a "clever Volantene" who reads a lot:

The Yunkai’i claimed that she fed her dragons on human flesh and bathed in the blood of virgins to keep her skin smooth and supple. Beans laughed at that but relished the tales of the silver queen’s promiscuity. “One of her captains comes of a line where the men have foot-long members,” he told them, “but even he’s not big enough for her. She rode with the Dothraki and grew accustomed to being fucked by stallions, so now no man can fill her.” And Books, the clever Volantene swordsman who always seemed to have his nose poked in some crumbly scroll, thought the dragon queen both murderous and mad. “Her khal killed her brother to make her queen. Then she killed her khal to make herself khaleesi. She practices blood sacrifice, lies as easily as she breathes, turns against her own on a whim. She’s broken truces, tortured envoys ... her father was mad too. It runs in the blood.”

All lies of course, but people love gossiping and spreading stories like that. You'll recall that similar stories about Tyrion spread when he was Hand. Zero such stories ever spread about Tywin. Add to this the bogus tales of how she laughed at the Dornish prince who loved her. The sexual tales of Dany and Dothraki are particularly dangerous. Tywin recognized the practical importance of maintaining a pure reputation on sexual matters, which was why he always freaked out at Tyrion re: whores (while yes, hypocritically seeing some himself, but it's the reputation that mattered to him and he successfully preserved it). Clever operators like Littlefinger can have a field day fanning sexist and racist sentiments with the raw material from Dany's biography.

[brashcandy]

You're wrong brashcandy. Dany is loved by most of the slaves she freed, but she is feared and hated by the nobles of Meereen, Astapor, Ghiscari, and Volantis. Now, thanks to the actions of her dragons she can promptly add 'feared and hated by six of the great houses' to her titles. Rumours are already spreading about her alleged madness, so the houses who rose in rebellion against her father are likely to view her as her father come again. This is not a good thing, being loved by the ones with no power and hated by those who possess it.

Actually that is the very best thing. Because the ones who possess the "power" only possess it because the ones without are too downtrodden and mentally enslaved to realise that they actually have the power. Which is how it works with slavery. Power can shift very very quickly. Why do you think Martin pointedly highlights the ratio in Volantis between slaves and their owners. If the slaves wanted to seize power they could, but they need an impetus, an inspirational woman like Dany to provide the push.

People fear and envy Dany because she has dragons, and the nobles hate her because she wants to end slavery. If she didn't have dragons, and she wasn't cunning and smart, do you think they would even bother to work up hatred for her?

As for Westeros, all the smallfolk especially hate the noble folk. And the nobles are in complete and utter shambles, not to mention most of them are blithely unaware of the threat coming from the North. If Dany is instrumental in stopping the Others then everyone will love her.

And I think we're being implicitly unfair here. Do you think the nobles will love Aegon simply because he doesn't have dragons? Or forget love, let's make up a word: will they "unhate" him because of this? Will they love him more than Dany because she has dragons and he doesn't? Of course not. They will hate him all the same because he is coming to put himself on the Throne. Dragons are merely the very feared advantage that Dany has.

[House Martell]

If no one cared for Viserys, why have a marriage contract? If Doran thought he was too insignificant to fulfill that contract, he shouldn't use evidence of of disdain to try and get his sister to marry into his family.

And yes, the two Targaryen kids running around were valuable, but there is no hint that they had help from Doran. There is a stronger hint that they had help from Illyrio/Varys. After all, once Dany was old enough to be a mariageable commodity, she was promptly sold off to the Dothraki for a huge marriage price that went straight to Illyrio. He housed them for the year before that marriage. He might have been the one to secretly arrange their previous stays- or not. But there is not the slightest hint in the text that Doran did anything whatsoever on their behalf.

No one in Essos would care was my point, without someone else pulling strings for them. And she was sold to gain an army, Illyrio seemed to be doing ok financially without the marriage price. We know Doran would have interest in their well being, we don't know why Illyrio would on his own...

[It is none]

You're wrong brashcandy. Dany is loved by most of the slaves she freed, but she is feared and hated by the nobles of Meereen, Astapor, Ghiscari, and Volantis. Now, thanks to the actions of her dragons she can promptly add 'feared and hated by six of the great houses' to her titles. Rumours are already spreading about her alleged madness, so the houses who rose in rebellion against her father are likely to view her as her father come again. This is not a good thing, being loved by the ones with no power and hated by those who possess it.

But Martin has been at pains to point out how many more slaves there are in those cities than there are nobles. Once the nobles have been defeated, if the slaves take power, the majority of those cities will be Dany supporters.

We do not know what the actions of Dany's dragons will be. She is stuck in Essos for quite a bit longer yet, having to return and deal with Mereen and then with Pentos to fulfill Tyrion and Selmy's promises. After Pentos, it seems logical she will move on to Volantis where the widow will help organize the slaves for their uprising. ALl the while war will rage in Westeros and the Others will rise. It is very likely that when she crosses the narrow sea, it will not be to battle the six great houses you talk about but to battle the Others, earning the gratitude of those same houses as well as the small folk.

As much as so many on the board want her to get to Westeros as soon as possible, I believe the longer she delays the better it will be for her. Let all the players beat each other bloody and then she can come in and deal with the REAL threat to Westeros and not the political power struggles.

[brashcandy]

I just want to point out that Martin is changing the World as we met it in AGOT and as most of the people in Westeros take it for granted. He is changing it on a micro level and on a macro level. Dany and Jon are operating on the macro level. Jon has to fight the others, Dany has to fight the slavers. It is not as black and white as this obviously, because we may discover that the others are not inherently wicked and certainly Dany has to make use of the nobles if Essos is to move forward in prosperity. But the ultimate goal still matters. People should not be enslaved and they should not be wiped off the face of the earth either.

Also the smallfolk matter. Just as Jon realises that the wildlings matter, a change is coming to Westeros. How dramatic or revolutionary it will be is yet to be seen, but I don't think the Iron Throne will exist by the end of the series because it has been for too long a symbol of oppression, opportunism and corruption. It has to cease to exist.

This is why I truly think that Martin has delayed Dany's coming for so long - the Iron throne is not the end goal, it doesn't matter anymore.

[It is none]

No one in Essos would care was my point, without someone else pulling strings for them. And she was sold to gain an army, Illyrio seemed to be doing ok financially without the marriage price. We know Doran would have interest in their well being, we don't know why Illyrio would on his own...

There have been many pages of opinions on the forum to the effect that Illyrio was using Viserys and Dany as a way to distract Robert et all from discovering his chosen princeling, Aegon. Keeping Vis and Dany alive and on the run was therefore important to his plot.

[It is none]

I just want to point out that Martin is changing the World as we met it in AGOT and as most of the people in Westeros take it for granted. He is changing it on a micro level and on a macro level. Dany and Jon are operating on the macro level. Jon has to fight the others, Dany has to fight the slavers. It is not as black and white as this obviously, because we may discover that the others are not inherently wicked and certainly Dany has to make use of the nobles if Essos is to move forward in prosperity. But the ultimate goal still matters. People should not be enslaved and they should not be wiped off the face of the earth either.

Also the smallfolk matter. Just as Jon realises that the wildlings matter, a change is coming to Westeros. How dramatic or revolutionary it will be is yet to be seen, but I don't think the Iron Throne will exist by the end of the series because it has been for too long a symbol of oppression, opportunism and corruption. It has to cease to exist.

This is why I truly think that Martin has delayed Dany's coming for so long - the Iron throne is not the end goal, it doesn't matter anymore.

:agree:

Well put, as ever.

[Gogossos]

You're wrong brashcandy. Dany is loved by most of the slaves she freed, but she is feared and hated by the nobles of Meereen, Astapor, Ghiscari, and Volantis. Now, thanks to the actions of her dragons she can promptly add 'feared and hated by six of the great houses' to her titles. Rumours are already spreading about her alleged madness, so the houses who rose in rebellion against her father are likely to view her as her father come again. This is not a good thing, being loved by the ones with no power and hated by those who possess it.

She has already created 3 companies from these freed slaves. She has created power from what was powerless before. In the process has turned what you perceive as weakness into strength. Rumours about Dany, even in Volantis which is not far away, are way over the top. But is it damaging her legend status or helping it along?

We don't know how the great houses will receive her, including the Martells. But we can speculate and I think she can win the Starks over, and with them quite a few more. I think one of Lannister, Tyrell, Martell, Tarly will move to her simply as a play against the others. I think the Vale can go to her side, depending on Sansa/LF shenanigans. I think lesser houses who've lost sons and castles already can't be ruled out in supporting Dany. Without lifting a finger yet, Westeros has already turned itself in and out and given Dany a way in. If Robert was still alive and in charge, if no War of the Five Kings had happened, if there was still peace in Westeros; then yes Dany would have had a mountain to climb but now, not so much.

[tze]

And so Dorne has the right to Dany's dragons? I think once again you're forgetting the facts. Dany is the QUEEN. Dorne should be bending over backwards to support any such "crusade" that she is on. If you want to justify their lack of support to her cause in Meereen then fine, but every other fool like Victarion brought help. Even Aegon turned around rather than go to her empty handed. If Dany doesn't have a greater right to Dornish resources then Dorne needs to take a step back and reconsider their offer.

First: Dany is not the Queen of Westeros. She may call herself that, but right now she is the Queen of Meereen, not Westeros.

Second: who says anybody has a "right" to those dragons? They're wild animals. Dany couldn't control Rhaegal or Viserion. What if Victarion binds one of those dragons with the horn, but Dany decides she doesn't want him to have that dragon? What if one of the dragons takes a great liking to someone Dany despises?

It doesn't even mean diddly-squat in Westeros either, where he isn't even an heir, and would have had to contend with the real heir apparent Aegon.

I'm sorry----what? So nobody in Westeros cared about Prince Oberyn Martell at all, is that what you're saying? Since he was merely a Prince of Dorne and not the heir, so he had no effect on Westerosi politics at all? I really don't know where you're getting this.

Stop being naive and thinking that Dorne could withstand a full on assault.

They have withstood a full on assault! They did it for 200 years! Brash, if anyone's being naive, it's you.

And really stop being naive in thinking that war happens in a vacuum. Not only is there a great chance that Dany would defeat Dorne, there's an even better chance that Dorne would never even bother to put up a fight.

. . . Have you been reading these books? They're the fucking Dornishmen! Of course they're going to put up a fight! They know for a fact that 3 dragons won't be enough to conquer them because history has shown it! They take perceived insults to House Martell very, very personally! They're irrationally desperate for vengeance!

Let's remember that the reason Dorne has been so stubborn is because they've wanted revenge against the Lannisters/Baratheons.

No, it wasn't. You do realize that the Lannister/Baratheon ascension happened less than two decades ago, right? Dorne withstood the Targaryens for 200 years. They weren't doing that because they wanted revenge on the Baratheons and Lannisters. They were doing that because they're the fucking Dornishmen. They're incredibly stubborn and prideful. And even after they were conquered, the Young Dragon was unable to hold the region and a violent insurgency destroyed his forces. And Dany's troops are terrible with insurgencies.

Don't you mean Jon Targaryen?

Oh, come on. Jon is as much a Targaryen as Bran is a Tully. Jon has been shown to absolutely ooze Starkness.

And by the way, if you're on Jon's team you should definitely understand why it is that Dany felt the need to stay in Meereen and not accept Dorne's offer. After all, Jon sticks to his vows at the wall, and refuses Stannis' offer to take Winterfell, marry Val and become legitimate.

Jon is fighting evil ancient ice zombies. By fighting evil ancient ice zombies, he provides a tangible benefit to Westeros itself. Dany freeing slaves in Essos doesn't mean diddly squat in Westeros, where there are no slaves.

This is incredibly foolish. The people are not checking calendars ticking of the days and looking anxiously for Dany. They don't even know about her. When she comes, she'll most likely be saving from annihilation, so yeah, they'll be grateful then.

No, she'll most likely be toppling Aegon, who will probably have destroyed the hated Lannisters.

Why shouldn't she call herself the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms?

Because she's not.

She doesn't have to tell the Dornish a thing. If they can't understand that things do not run smoothly in a war, and that holding grudges really makes little sense to the larger picture unfolding before you then they are destined to be an irrelevant nation. Oops... wait... they are....

. . . What? Yes, coming to Westeros does involve dealing with the Dornish. She'd be seeking the Iron Throne. You must realize that Dorne is in Westeros, right? And I'm begging you---please show me where the Dornishmen have been shown to let go of grudges and see the larger picture unfolding.

It is a fantastic thing for Dany actually. The North hasn't rebelled against House Targaryen

Okay, now you must be joking. Really? You don't remember a certain rather famous incident wherein the North rebelled against House Targaryen?

Do you realise that Dorne may be the furthest thing from Dany's mind when she gets to Westeros?

Your logic makes no sense. Dorne is part of Westeros. If Dany wants to conquer the Seven Kingdoms, she's going to have to make a plan for one of those kingdoms.

Do you realise that you are basing all of this on the speculation that Dorne will hold a massive grudge against Dany?

Yes. Yes I do. I expounded on that theory at length. How was that unclear to you?

All this may be true. But the red priests are the only ones so far getting results.

One word: Bloodraven.

I hate the Ironborn too, but this isn't about love and affection. It's about using the strategies and the persons who can assist you.

And that's the entire point: the Ironborn can transport Dany's army, but they won't be content to just drop her off and go on their merry way. They're going to want to pillage. That's what they do. And while the Ironborn are very good at destruction, they're even better at pissing people off. The benefit they give to Dany is more than outweighed by the cost---the hatred they engender.

Not necessarily at all. Sansa could very well end up as Queen of the North, something that Dany might see as being the best political solution.

What? No. Dany wants the Iron Throne. There's no way she'll want to just give up half the kingdom. Not without a fight.

[hesitantreader]

I don't think that Westeros is going to become a republic; Martin likes writing about knights too much. We may end up with a few kingdoms instead of one, but I don't expect the Iron throne to go away completely.