[ADwD Spoilers] Quentyn Martell

[tze]

Oh dear, making up facts are we? Olives apparently take 7 years to mature and she made plans for that. She also sought out an economic alliance with the Lamb Men, that's also a long term plan. She allowed anyone with requisite skills to enter the guilds, that's also a long term action. She started three military companies from scratch and has young boys training to be knights, that's long term planning for long term benefits. She's also building an irrigation system for lands around her city, that's a long term plan. These few examples prove that your assertion is incorrect.

She seeks out an alliance with the Lamb Men, but never sends emissaries to Braavos---wealthy, powerful, slavery-hating Braavos. The Lamb Men might have been helpful in the short term, but in the long term, they're an "ally" who apparently has difficulty defending themselves (the Dothraki apparently frequently defeat and enslave them, as we saw during AGOT with Drogo's khalasar) and who would probably want Dany's already-stretched-thin military resources to protect them. Braavosi support would take some time to reach her, but in the long term, they were the best option available, and she never even considers contacting them. She's trying to irrigate the lands around her city, but she's doing nothing to preemptively halt the slavers' inevitable attacks; she has no spies in Volantis or among the Yunish troops, for example.

She wants to free slaves, but Dany never once sat down and made a plan for beginning to end the slave trade of Essos. Her entire plan can be summed us thusly:

1) See slaves

2) Break slaves' chains

3) No more slaves!

She never once considered that maybe the other slaveholders in Essos wouldn't just let her sit quietly in Meereen and build up a slaveless society. She never stopped to think about the long-term implications of freeing the slaves of Slaver's Bay---that she was basically declaring war on every slaveholding city in Essos.

She marries Hizdahr out of pure desperation. It was a sign that the Harpy beat her and she thinks as much herself. And the only reason she caves is that war is coming to her city at that exact moment. That's not long term planning, that's pure reaction.

I agree. She married Hizdahr because he gave her a tangible benefit right now---stopping the Sons of the Harpy. But will he be able to stop the next insurgency? Dany has no way of knowing because she never asks how he stopped the Sons in the first place.

Not to mention, it's heavily hinted that Hizdahr's family and the Shavepate's family loathe each other. How many other Meereenese noble families did Dany inadvertently snub by choosing Hizdahr? The Green Grace says he's the best choice, but Dany never bothers to get a second opinion. Maybe there was another Meereenese nobleman in one of those pyramids that Dany never visits who could have stopped the insurgency and who was even better-loved than Hizdahr? Maybe someone who also brought soldiers, wealth, and contacts in other regions of Essos that would have been invaluable to Dany's long-term goals? Dany didn't explore any options other than those explicitly presented to her, so she had no way of knowing if Hizdahr was really the best long-term choice in Meereen.

Not to mention, what if she does go to Westeros? Does the Meereenese religion provide for divorce? If so, what would Dany have to do to obtain one? If not, how on earth would the Westerosi people react to a King like Hizdahr? He doesn't seem like a warrior, he brings no troops, he doesn't follow the Seven. If Dany came to Westeros and Hizdahr was still legally her husband, that could have been disasterous for her.

She could have tried any number of things. The most obvious would be re-brokering the deal, saying she's not interested in marriage but will give Dorne x y and z in return for their support, and send Quentyn off home to get things ready for her return, or even asked him to stay and help her sort out her Meereenese problem and make an offer to sweeten the deal there.

Not to mention, Quentyn's mother is Lady Mellario of Norvos, one of the Free Cities of Essos. GRRM hasn't told us what kind of power Lady Mellario and her family have in Norvos, but for all we know it could be substantial. If Dany had opened negotiations with Quentyn instead of saying "I can't marry you, my dragons don't seem to like you, go home before people kill you", she might have ended up with some unexpected avenues to get Norvosi support. And Dany needs all the help she can get at this point.

[Tagganaro]

She seeks out an alliance with the Lamb Men, but never sends emissaries to Braavos---wealthy, powerful, slavery-hating Braavos. The Lamb Men might have been helpful in the short term, but in the long term, they're an "ally" who apparently has difficulty defending themselves (the Dothraki apparently frequently defeat and enslave them, as we saw during AGOT with Drogo's khalasar) and who would probably want Dany's already-stretched-thin military resources to protect them. Braavosi support would take some time to reach her, but in the long term, they were the best option available, and she never even considers contacting them. She's trying to irrigate the lands around her city, but she's doing nothing to preemptively halt the slavers' inevitable attacks; she has no spies in Volantis or among the Yunish troops, for example.

Dany has no fleet to send anyone to Braavos. She destroyed her "fleet" (3 ships) in order to get into Mereen, and even if she wanted to send emissaries to Braavos she couldn't because she either had no ships or was being blockaded. Her only option is the Lamb Men.

[Gogossos]

If you can try reading what I wrote, the post was referring mostly to her lack of planning for the invasion of Westeros, and how that contributed to this issue with Quentyn. Indeed you've shown that a few lines were incorrect, and I award you one golf clap for doing so. Want to deal with the meat of the post and the actual point I was making, now?

Half of your post was about Dany's apparent lack of long term planning in Meereen, which I answered. The other half was about Dany's treatment of Quentyn, which has been debated endlessly already in this thread. At first you guys were putting it as a "Westeros vs Meereen" choice for her but we successfully argued that it was a "Now vs Future" choice. So now you are now claiming she had no long term plan for Quentyn and I say actually she did: keep him alive. She warned him about Hizdahr (something even Barristan was surprised about) and Daario and any of their men doing him harm even without her say so. He had nothing for her in Meereen and if he had stayed he would have died at some point. If she had taken up his offer then she would have been back to square one: being someone's pawn. If you want to know her strategic choices for Westeros (where to land, who to marry, how to play the game, who to fight etc) then you will have to wait for the next two books.

She seeks out an alliance with the Lamb Men, but never sends emissaries to Braavos---wealthy, powerful, slavery-hating Braavos. ...

She never stopped to think about the long-term implications of freeing the slaves of Slaver's Bay---that she was basically declaring war on every slaveholding city in Essos....

Maybe someone who also brought soldiers, wealth, and contacts in other regions of Essos that would have been invaluable to Dany's long-term goals? ...

Not to mention, what if she does go to Westeros? ...

Not to mention, Quentyn's mother is Lady Mellario of Norvos, one of the Free Cities of Essos.

Wow, Dany must be most incompetent! Why didn't she ask Quentyn who his mother was? Why didn't she ask around for someone else besides Hizdahr? Why didn't she consider that Yunkai and Qarth would declare war? Why didn't she think about Westeros more?

I hate to break it to you but Dany not doing any of these things you wanted her to do does not mean she is incompetent at what she decides to do! She made different choices from what you'd have preferred but it does not take away from her own analysis of the situation. For example Hizdahr pestered her a lot at court, before claiming he could ensure 90 days without killings (that's why she married him because she gave her word, she married him immediately because Astapor fell). That's just one example (I could do the same with the other instances you brought up but it'll be making the same point).

She could have tried any number of things. The most obvious would be re-brokering the deal, saying she's not interested in marriage but will give Dorne x y and z in return for their support, and send Quentyn off home

Could you expand on what that x, y, z could be?

[tze]

Wow, Dany must be most incompetent! Why didn't she ask Quentyn who his mother was? Why didn't she ask around for someone else besides Hizdahr? Why didn't she consider that Yunkai and Qarth would declare war? Why didn't she think about Westeros more?

I hate to break it to you but Dany not doing any of these things you wanted her to do does not mean she is incompetent at what she decides to do! She made different choices from what you'd have preferred but it does not take away from her own analysis of the situation. For example Hizdahr pestered her a lot at court, before claiming he could ensure 90 days without killings (that's why she married him because she gave her word, she married him immediately because Astapor fell). That's just one example (I could do the same with the other instances you brought up but it'll be making the same point).

Incompetent? I'm not calling her incompetent for failing to do these things. I'm saying she wasn't thinking about the long-term consequences of her actions.

[iamthedave]

Could you expand on what that x, y, z could be?

Her plan is to become Queen of the seven kingdoms, and ruler of all Westeros. You figure it out. She could offer them literally anything. Casterly Rock, multiple seats on her council, a marriage contract for her eventual children maybe, expansions to their lands, financial rewards...

Pick it out of a hat.

[DragonsHungry]

Incompetent? I'm not calling her incompetent for failing to do these things. I'm saying she wasn't thinking about the long-term consequences of her actions.

After all, she is just a "young girl" in her own words. I agree with your take. Dany's moves were to help her in Meereen, but did nothing to aid her in Westeros, and it turns out really did little to help her in Meereen. She had an opportunity to start on her path to the throne of Westeros, but took a pass. "Conquerers" know when to seize the moment and know when to cut their losses. She has now given that moment to Aegon in staying in Meereen, a loss she should have cut.

Turning down the loyalty of one of the seven kingdoms vs. a single city? Not a bright strategic move for someone who wants the throne of Westeros someday.

[The Mother of The Others]

Waves hand and invokes topic locking spell.

These young people today, they can't even take over the east worth a damn.

[brashcandy]

She seeks out an alliance with the Lamb Men, but never sends emissaries to Braavos---wealthy, powerful, slavery-hating Braavos. The Lamb Men might have been helpful in the short term, but in the long term, they're an "ally" who apparently has difficulty defending themselves (the Dothraki apparently frequently defeat and enslave them, as we saw during AGOT with Drogo's khalasar) and who would probably want Dany's already-stretched-thin military resources to protect them. Braavosi support would take some time to reach her, but in the long term, they were the best option available, and she never even considers contacting them.

Please contact GRRM. I see you're trying to write his books for him. This whole issue about Dany not doing any long term planning for Westeros is preposterous. Everything she was doing up to the time she she conquered Astaphor was about planning for Westeros, and as Gogossos has pointed out, she's an excellent long term planner based on her decisions for Meereen.

It is very easy to say "oh she didn't send emissaries to Braavos" but do you really think this is a fair criticism to make based on the challenges that she had to confront first hand in Meereen? For every action that a character takes, we as readers could probably highlight a thousand other alternative options that might have brought benefits, for instance, why didn't Doran do some fact finding concerning Dany's situation before he sent his son on a dangerous mission that had no guarantee of success? This to me seems like a more plausible criticism than sending people to see if Braavos would help. As Tagganaro indicated, she had no ships to send anyone anywhere, plus there was the small matter of a blockade in her port. You will remember that her crusade against slavery was literally a spur of the moment decision in Astaphor, that then became an actual policy as she moved onto Meereen. Plus why would Braavos want to embroil themselves in her problems? Problems that don't concern them, would tax their resources and probably hurt them financially? This is the same kind of magical thinking that imagines she could just accept Quentyn's offer and they would float out of the city with no problems.

She's trying to irrigate the lands around her city, but she's doing nothing to preemptively halt the slavers' inevitable attacks; she has no spies in Volantis or among the Yunish troops, for example.

Ah yes, again, ignore what she is actually doing, in favour of what you think she should be doing.

She wants to free slaves, but Dany never once sat down and made a plan for beginning to end the slave trade of Essos. Her entire plan can be summed us thusly:

1) See slaves

2) Break slaves' chains

3) No more slaves!

Again, you're trying to write the book. Dany has just left one city - Astaphor- in tatters. She comes to Meereen and the situation there quickly gets out of control and she needs to bring peace and prosperity back. She literally has no time to think of other cities right now. It's not as though she originally came to Essos with a plan to end slavery. She is trying to get Meereen right, and then she can determine the template for other places, but this doesn't mean she isn't a long term planner.

She never once considered that maybe the other slaveholders in Essos wouldn't just let her sit quietly in Meereen and build up a slaveless society. She never stopped to think about the long-term implications of freeing the slaves of Slaver's Bay---that she was basically declaring war on every slaveholding city in Essos.

She does realise the implications of her actions and she doesn't take it lightly, however she's not prepared to cut and run either. Since she didn't set out to be a anti-slavery crusader in the first place, her plans are necessarily short sighted. She has to focus on Meereen because she feels a direct responsibility to fixing the problems in Meereen.

I agree. She married Hizdahr because he gave her a tangible benefit right now---stopping the Sons of the Harpy. But will he be able to stop the next insurgency? Dany has no way of knowing because she never asks how he stopped the Sons in the first place.

So now you've resorted to pulling problems out a hat to suggest that Dany isn't competent? The Sons of the Harpy were behind all of the violence and problems that Meereen was experiencing. The Harpies are well funded and armed, they obviously have training in terms of guerilla warfare. They represented the problem in Meereen and she had to deal with them to stop other insurgencies from popping up around the place, which would have been more likely to happen if people felt she could not control the city.

And marrying Hizdahr wasn't just about stopping the Harpies either, it was about bringing prosperity back to the city - hence why she reopens the pits. And obviously stopping a violent insurgency now, has long term benefits for being able to rule effectively and bring stability and economic benefits back to Meereen.

[Moonbloodraven]

She's in no position to up and leave Meereen at the point of Quentyn's ridiculously informal offer, for Westeros. Sometimes you have to put long term goals on hold when short term situations dictate urgent actions. This is what happened to Dany. Her immediate focus is on 1. staying alive(subverting betrayals, revolt, etc...) 2. Saving her children(loyalists, freedmen and her dragons) and 3. Rectifying the impending war as well as the naval blockade/embargo.

What's the point in long term goals if short term obstacles are threatening to end your ability to even reach those goals? in effect, rectifying these short term cluster^%&*s preserve the future.

as an aside: before the Yunkish and company show up, she had made significant steps to rebuild the city as quickly as possible so she could once again focus on going back "home"(wherever that may be - - she's still struggling with that question if we remember). Some of these examples were listed well I might add by Gogossos.

[the average Other]

Wait, so your whole reading of ADWD is that the dragons simply tolerate Dany? Seriously? Your evidence is that she's afraid of them and that they hunt for themselves instead of being fed? Well, to address a few of those points. Initially Dany allows them to hunt freely, until Drogon allegedly feeds on a kid and she locks them up. They are not happy to be chained in the dark of course, as Dany herself observes. So their anger and Dany's fear are understandable. But she was not afraid of them when it counted, when she rode Drogon for the first time. A lot of people have cited Drogons unwillingness to return to Meereen as evidence that Dany can't control him. Well, Dany spent seemingly a long time with him at his "Dragonstone", flying with him consistently, feeding with him and spending a lot of quality time. That's all erased because Drogon doesn't want this to end? Look at it from his point of view. And that passage at the end when he arrives after she calls him is not him coming to investigate what all that noise is about. It's him responding to this person when she calls him. He sits down long enough for her to climb up. I can't interpret that passage the way you have.

Yes, that is my reading.

Let me put it this way: If you had a neighbour who owned a big dog, a dog that's free to roam his house, his yard, and the whole neighbourhood; a dog that habitually attacks other animals and people and eventually kills one of them; a dog that's so aggressive that when the owner's forced to put it on a leash on his backyard he can't do it on his own, but has to hire other people to do it, and the dog permanently injures several of those people; a dog that, once leashed, is so dangerous that the owner doesn't dare go near it because he knows the dog attacks anyone who does - would you think the situation is a-okay and looking good just because the dog, when free and allowed to do what it wants, lets the owner sleep in the same house and eat its leftovers?

And dragons are infinitely more dangerous than any dog.

... her crusade against slavery was literally a spur of the moment decision in Astaphor, ... Dany has just left one city - Astaphor- in tatters. She comes to Meereen and the situation there quickly gets out of control ... has no time to think of other cities right now. It's not as though she originally came to Essos with a plan ... Since she didn't set out to be a anti-slavery crusader in the first place, her plans are necessarily short sighted.

Excellent characterization of Dany, brashcandy.

[Gogossos]

Incompetent? I'm not calling her incompetent for failing to do these things. I'm saying she wasn't thinking about the long-term consequences of her actions.

Of course she didn't think about the long term consequences of not asking Quentyn about his mother and any other suggestions you had for her because, hello, she didn't do those things. You might change your stance and say she didn't think about long term consequences of actions she actually took. To which I'd point out that, excluding the long term nature of her plans already highlighted, she didn't about Westeros specifically because GRRM is yet to write that book. In this book, she was so busy she didn't spend more time with her dragons, for instance,which she regrets. Did you want conversations about which House will provide suitable suitors with Barristan over her Unsullieds' dead bodies? Or maybe over a cup of coffee with the Green Grace? How about with Quent during her wedding service? The point being, we'll know more about this when she meets people like Tyrion and her story explicitly moves towards Westeros. ADWD was not that story.

Her plan is to become Queen of the seven kingdoms, and ruler of all Westeros. You figure it out. She could offer them literally anything. Casterly Rock, multiple seats on her council, a marriage contract for her eventual children maybe, expansions to their lands, financial rewards...

Pick it out of a hat.

Well, I'll pick it out of a hat when her story moves along to this aspect. For now what I'll pick out of a hat is whether she will subdue the khalasar she was with at the end, Barristan's options in battle, my guesses of who the poisoner might be, whether the Yunkai will kill all the captives, Victarion's likely impact, etc. In other words, I'm not going to put the cart before the horse. I'm as impatient as you in wanting to see Dany in Westeros but unlike you I'm not willing to discount her experiences in Meereen and I am happy to enjoy them on their own merits.

Yes, that is my reading.

Let me put it this way: If you had a neighbour who owned a big dog, a dog that's free to roam his house, his yard, and the whole neighbourhood; a dog that habitually attacks other animals and people and eventually kills one of them; a dog that's so aggressive that when the owner's forced to put it on a leash on his backyard he can't do it on his own, but has to hire other people to do it, and the dog permanently injures several of those people; a dog that, once leashed, is so dangerous that the owner doesn't dare go near it because he knows the dog attacks anyone who does - would you think the situation is a-okay and looking good just because the dog, when free and allowed to do what it wants, lets the owner sleep in the same house and eat its leftovers?

Okay then, different readers have different perspectives, I respect that (unlike the inventing of facts that I have seen elsewhere). My reading is that the dragons are wild animals, in the sense that they are not like meek horses which you can sell to whoever you please. But they are not uncontrollable animals either, just like the Stark direwolves. The two incidences of human feeding we witnessed were after the dragons were attacked (Viserion and Drogon in the pit). The other human deaths confirmed was when Dany was forcing them into the dungeon in metal chains. The one with the child's bones is unconfirmed, with circumnstances unknown. Otherwise these dragons have been allowed to roam and feed themselves - just like Ghost and Summer who we witness hunting numerous times - I believe that's why Dany's dragons have grown this fast. Dany told Quentyn in the pit that she was afraid of them, for his benefit I believe (she mentioned that a crueler woman would've laughed at him) and when it mattered she was not afraid of Drogon. The fact that other people are afraid of dragons should not take away from Dany's own control/connection with these dragons (Xaro believes those creatures shouldn't exist, period. Is that your view as well?)

[brashcandy]

Of course she didn't think about the long term consequences of not asking Quentyn about his mother and any other suggestions you had for her because, hello, she didn't do those things. You might change your stance and say she didn't think about long term consequences of actions she actually took. To which I'd point out that, excluding the long term nature of her plans already highlighted, she didn't about Westeros specifically because GRRM is yet to write that book. In this book, she was so busy she didn't spend more time with her dragons, for instance,which she regrets. Did you want conversations about which House will provide suitable suitors with Barristan over her Unsullieds' dead bodies? Or maybe over a cup of coffee with the Green Grace? How about with Quent during her wedding service? The point being, we'll know more about this when she meets people like Tyrion and her story explicitly moves towards Westeros. ADWD was not that story.

Precisely. You would think this would this be obvious, wouldn't you? ;) I don't know if people forget that we saw no Dany in AFFC. Her story picked up directly after ASOS, and ADWD was about showing her responses to the challenges in Meereen. How can we expect her to be dealing with a violent insurgency and at at the same time, making plans for Westeros? It doesn't make sense, which is exactly the reason she told Quentyn to return home. People are jumping ahead, accusing her of not making specific plans for Westeros, when she hasn't started to make specific plans for Westeros yet! And the ending of the ADWD, with the Khalasar, Victarion on his way, etc, certainly indicates that those plans for Westeros will soon start being made, now that she may be able to successfully deal with the Meereen issues.

Okay then, different readers have different perspectives, I respect that (unlike the inventing of facts that I have seen elsewhere). My reading is that the dragons are wild animals, in the sense that they are not like meek horses which you can sell to whoever you please. But they are not uncontrollable animals either, just like the Stark direwolves. The two incidences of human feeding we witnessed were after the dragons were attacked (Viserion and Drogon in the pit). The other human deaths confirmed was when Dany was forcing them into the dungeon in metal chains. The one with the child's bones is unconfirmed, with circumnstances unknown. Otherwise these dragons have been allowed to roam and feed themselves - just like Ghost and Summer who we witness hunting numerous times - I believe that's why Dany's dragons have grown this fast. Dany told Quentyn in the pit that she was afraid of them, for his benefit I believe (she mentioned that a crueler woman would've laughed at him) and when it mattered she was not afraid of Drogon. The fact that other people are afraid of dragons should not take away from Dany's own control/connection with these dragons (Xaro believes those creatures shouldn't exist, period. Is that your view as well?)

What amazes me is how negative people's opinions are about these dragons simply because Dany has them. As you rightly pointed out, the Starks have some vicious direwolves too. Shaggydog attacks with little provocation, and Greywind bit a man's fingers off.

All of a sudden, the dragons are crazy, untameable creatures that Dany has zero control over, and they're only tolerating her at best. They would kill her just as easily as anyone else too, and they're really not a game changer for Westeros at all.

All this seeking to undermine the very real control that Dany has demonstrated, especially with the fiercest dragon of them all, Drogon. He is by her side at the end of the book, but some posters are still willing to suggest that he might just up and fly off! Not to mention the minimizing of the dragons' impact on any war, anywhere.

I find it puzzling. If anyone else had dragons, it would be a general consensus that that person has some pretty powerful weapons, but with Dany it's better to forget she has them and act like she's just another weakling. That must be why nearly Doran sent Quentyn, and Aegon wanted to marry too, not to mention Euron and Victarion and lots of suitors in Essos as well.

The dragons are wild animals, and as such, they act like wild animals. Breathing fire is their method of defence and offence, so of course when they feel threatened or get excited that's what they do. But even if we allow that the dragons have absolutely no allegiance to Dany - which is shown to be not true- and would fry her in an instant, Dany is the only one brave enough to actually attempt to master them singlehandedly. Her treatment of Drogon was very much like a mother to a child. She was not afraid of him. This to me speak volumes of what her relationship with the other two will be like now that they are free.

[Tini]

Yes, dragons are wild animals. And they only obey to their riders. I guess that means that Dany will have more control over Drogon, now that she's become his rider, than over the two dragons currently located in Meereen. I think it likely that those two dragons will find/choose riders soon. (Those riders don't have to become permanent fixtures in the books, though; dragons are free to choose new riders when their riders die.)

And Dany has only quite recently become a rider herself. Considering that she was controlling 3 dragons without the particular bond a rider shares with his dragon, she was doing quite well.

[tze]

Please contact GRRM. I see you're trying to write his books for him. This whole issue about Dany not doing any long term planning for Westeros is preposterous. Everything she was doing up to the time she she conquered Astaphor was about planning for Westeros

As so many others have pointed out: no, it wasn't. At best it was planning for Essos. Dany never actually plans for invading Westeros.

Since she didn't set out to be a anti-slavery crusader in the first place, her plans are necessarily short sighted.

So we agree! Dany wasn't planning long-term here! Cause of course you can't be both "short sighted" and "long term" simultaneously. She thought she could just free the slaves in a couple of cities, build up an army, and . . . those actions would have no long-term consequences?

So now you've resorted to pulling problems out a hat to suggest that Dany isn't competent?

:bang:

Please read my actual posts, rather than the arguments you just pretend I've made. I'll repeat:

Incompetent? I'm not calling her incompetent for failing to do these things. I'm saying she wasn't thinking about the long-term consequences of her actions.

Honestly.

And marrying Hizdahr wasn't just about stopping the Harpies either, it was about bringing prosperity back to the city - hence why she reopens the pits. And obviously stopping a violent insurgency now, has long term benefits for being able to rule effectively and bring stability and economic benefits back to Meereen.

But marrying Hizdahr and opening the pits were two entirely separate decisions. She didn't have to marry Hizdahr to open the pits. And my entire point is that Dany chooses a method of stopping the current insurgency that doesn't take into account 1) how to stop all future insurgencies--i.e., ask Hizdahr how on earth he did what he did, and 2) what negative consequences could possibly result from making Hizdahr her king.

Stopping the current insurgency by doing exactly what the insurgents want doesn't lead to long-standing peace. It just means that, the next time Dany does something the Sons of the Harpy dislike, they'll start attacking again, confident in the knowledge that Dany will just give in to their demands cause that's exactly what she did in the past. And when Hizdahr is imprisoned, the Sons do exactly that. And since Dany doesn't bother to discover how Hizdahr stopped the Sons in the first place, she has no way of knowing if he can stop the next insurgency at all. That is not a recipe for peace and prosperity in Meereen.

People are jumping ahead, accusing her of not making specific plans for Westeros, when she hasn't started to make specific plans for Westeros yet!

Imagine that. We say she hasn't made plans for Westeros, and our only evidence is the fact that she hasn't made plans for Westeros.

Of course she didn't think about the long term consequences of not asking Quentyn about his mother and any other suggestions you had for her because, hello, she didn't do those things.

My point is that she doesn't think about the long-term consequences of turning down Quentyn's offer, not that she should have randomly asked him about his mother. She believed that he couldn't help her right this second, so she tried to send him home. If she'd opened negotiations and tried to see how he could have helped her in the future, she might have been pleasantly surprised. But my point is that it never occurred to her to ask herself what benefit he could pose in the future.

You might change your stance and say she didn't think about long term consequences of actions she actually took.

But that's exactly what I'm saying. She didn't think about the long term consequences of freeing slaves and attacking cities in Slaver's Bay---that she'd inevitably put herself on the radar on every slave holding city in Essos. And she didn't think about what the long term consequences of marrying Hizdahr would be, both in Meereen and outside of it. Hell, maybe the Meereenese all adore Hizdahr, like the Green Grace says. Or maybe the Green Grace loves Hizdahr and a lot of nobles hate him, and that hatred will cause Dany problems down the road. My point is that she didn't wonder about how Hizdahr would affect her in Meereen in the future at all.

I find it puzzling. If anyone else had dragons, it would be a general consensus that that person has some pretty powerful weapons, but with Dany it's better to forget she has them and act like she's just another weakling.

Wow. Pretending that people have called Dany "just another weakling" does not mean that people have actually said that, you know.

The entire point of these boards is to discuss these books. Just sitting around and squeeing about a character's awesomeness isn't something I for one would spend a lot of time on cause it gets old really, really fast. So I can't speak for anyone else, but I come here to discuss characters' strengths AS WELL AS their flaws, because every character GRRM writes about is flawed and that's the entire reason they're interesting. Talking about how Dany is a super!special, unique, wonderfully beautiful butterfly who can do no wrong, whose actions have no negative consequences, whose decisions are always right and always perfect, sounds not only boring, but also ignores the books entirely. The same goes for Quentyn, and Doran, and even my beloved Jon. This is ASOIAF. Not Disney.

So when I for one point out the problems I think Dany will face and the mistakes I think she's made, I'm not calling her names. I'm trying to see the whole picture GRRM has painted for us. It's difficult to do that when you start attacking arguments that nobody has even made.

[brashcandy]

As so many others have pointed out: no, it wasn't. At best it was planning for Essos. Dany never actually plans for invading Westeros. And trying to learn how to rule it before figuring out how to conquer it is putting the cart before the horse.

So turning aside from Pentos, and going to Slaver's Bay to source her own army wasn't about Westeros? I must have missed something...

So we agree! Dany wasn't planning long-term here! Cause of course you can't be both "short sighted" and "long term" simultaneously. She thought she could just free the slaves in a couple of cities, build up an army, and . . . those actions would have no long-term consequences?

No we don't. If you had actually understood what I wrote, instead of jumping at "short-sighted" you would have realised that the point is that she had to deal directly with Meereen. She never had the luxury of sitting back and considering things in hind sight. This is why that final chapter is so monumental to her growth. She achieves clarity from being on her own and away from a claustrophobic, oppressive situation, where she constantly had to be responding to new threats. Just like the dragons, Dany was very much imprisoned in Meereen - unable to leave because of the blockade, her own refusal to give in to the slavers, and then a plague at her gates. She was forced into being short sighted, not that she never considered the long term consequences of her actions.

Stopping the current insurgency by doing exactly what the insurgents want doesn't lead to long-standing peace. It just means that, the next time Dany does something the Sons of the Harpy dislike, they'll start attacking again, confident in the knowledge that Dany will just give in to their demands cause that's exactly what she did in the past. And when Hizdahr is imprisoned, the Sons do exactly that. And since Dany doesn't bother to discover how Hizdahr stopped the Sons in the first place, she has no way of knowing if he can stop the next insurgency at all. That is not a recipe for peace and prosperity in Meereen.

None of us know exactly how Hizdahr stopped the Harpies, but that doesn't mean that Dany would have never asked him. Even if she had, Hizdahr could have simply lied. The fact is that stopping the Harpies was what mattered because it brought peace back to the city. If she wasn't able to control her own city, then other insurgencies would have definitely starting popping up.

Imagine that. We say she hasn't made plans for Westeros, and our only evidence is the fact that she hasn't made plans for Westeros.

Don't be ridiculous. How can you accuse someone of not doing the right thing in Westeros, and proceed to highlight specific plans that they have not made, when the person is busy dealing with a life and death situation. Your criticisms about "long term planning" have absolutely no credence. When she is ready to plan her invasion/conquest/rescue of Westeros, then we can begin thinking of what she needs to do or highlighting where she went wrong. But she is currently in Essos, dealing with the situation there. Or did you completely not read ADWD?

My point is that she doesn't think about the long-term consequences of turning down Quentyn's offer, not that she should have randomly asked him about his mother. She believed that he couldn't help her right this second, so she tried to send him home. If she'd opened negotiations and tried to see how he could have helped her in the future, she might have been pleasantly surprised. But my point is that it never occurred to her to ask herself what benefit he could pose in the future.

Again, more falsehood. She suggested to Quentyn that they might be able to work together in the future (i.e. Dorne) but she realises that Quentyn himself is not fit for the danger that being her husband or a dragon rider would entail. So yes she sends him home, but that doesn't mean that she slammed the door on a future alliance with Dorne. Quentyn was too set on the marriage idea to suggest other options. You must remember, they came to Dany not the other way around. It was up to Quentyn to be the one suggesting alternatives, not Dany.

But that's exactly what I'm saying. She didn't think about the long term consequences of freeing slaves and attacking cities in Slaver's Bay---that she'd inevitably put herself on the radar on every slave holding city in Essos. And she didn't think about what the long term consequences of marrying Hizdahr would be, both in Meereen and outside of it. Hell, maybe the Meereenese all adore Hizdahr, like the Green Grace says. Or maybe the Green Grace loves Hizdahr and a lot of nobles hate him, and that hatred will cause Dany problems down the road. My point is that she didn't wonder about how Hizdahr would affect her in Meereen in the future at all.

Does Dany seem to be afraid of putting herself on the radar of people? She actively welcomes being known as the "breaker of chains" and Mother to her people and dragons. We'll see how she deals with the other slave socities in TWOW. Again, stop jumping the gun. As for Hizdahr, he couldn't have come more highly recommended, and he passed the test she set for him. In hindsight she may have come to see the flaws in her arrangement, but she doesn't have such luxuries like readers do.

Wow. Pretending that people have called Dany "just another weakling" does not mean that people have actually said that, you know.

People have directly implied this on this thread and others. A weakling in the sense that she's just another player in the game of thrones, and that she has no control over her dragons, her forces are foreign and not accustomed to Westerosi terrain, etc etc. I've seen all the arguments believe me. Whilst Aegon lands on Westerosi soil with a company of sellswords and some elephants and most people believe that he'll sweep the land. Martin has consistently shown - by his keeping Dany out of Westeros for so long - that she's not meant to be a player for thrones; she'll probably end up having to rescue Westeros from annihilation if anything.

The entire point of these boards is to discuss these books. Just sitting around and squeeing about a character's awesomeness isn't something I for one would spend a lot of time on cause it gets old really, really fast. So I can't speak for anyone else, but I come here to discuss characters' strengths AS WELL AS their flaws, because every character GRRM writes about is flawed and that's the entire reason they're interesting. Talking about how Dany is a super!special, unique, wonderfully beautiful butterfly who can do no wrong, whose actions have no negative consequences, whose decisions are always right and always perfect, sounds not only boring, but also ignores the books entirely. The same goes for Quentyn, and Doran, and even my beloved Jon. This is ASOIAF. Not Disney.

So when I for one point out the problems I think Dany will face and the mistakes I think she's made, I'm not calling her names. I'm trying to see the whole picture GRRM has painted for us. It's difficult to do that when you start attacking arguments that nobody has even made.

Oh spare me, spare me. Many people like myself who defend Dany have admitted to her not being perfect, we've admitted to her flaws and mistakes she may have made. But don't act like you yourself haven't picked up the side of attacking Daenerys, and seeing her quest in largely pessimistic terms. It only takes a quick review of the majority of your posts to see this. I'm a defender of Daenerys yes, because she gets a shitty rap from the majority of people on this forum. She's either a slut and a nymphomaniac for sleeping with 3 men in her life, or she's a political lightweight for marrying Hizdahr. The criticisms go above and beyond what I have ever seen for any other character, and most often times completely ignore the good aspects of Dany, and the gains that she has made. So you can preach high and low about how people want to paint Dany as super special and unique but that's false. We're trying to do a fair analysis of a character that actually merits it. If you feel my analysis is not "objective" enough for you, then that's the way I feel about yours too. It's all geared towards attacking and diminishing Daenerys. So good, we're even.

[iamthedave]

We're trying to do a fair analysis of a character that actually merits it. If you feel my analysis is not "objective" enough for you, then that's the way I feel about yours too. It's all geared towards attacking and diminishing Daenerys. So good, we're even.

Rubbish. You whitewash everything she does and refuse to tolerate any criticism whatsoever. You're not in any way attempting to be fair, you only ever paint Dany in glowing tones, and the handful of occasions where you have voiced criticism you find a way to blame someone else for her failings or somehow construe them as a positive.

Look at this thread of the discussion. You jumped up saying Dany is planning long term for Westeros and in the very same post admitted that she hasn't planned long-term for Westeros. You defend her for the sake of the defense, not 'to give her a fair treatment'.

So turning aside from Pentos, and going to Slaver's Bay to source her own army wasn't about Westeros? I must have missed something...

When she is ready to plan her invasion/conquest/rescue of Westeros, then we can begin thinking of what she needs to do

You know she hasn't planned for Westeros, and you just admitted it. If you don't think that's a bad thing, fine for you, but there's no need to pretend she's done something she hasn't.

The criticisms go above and beyond what I have ever seen for any other character, and most often times completely ignore the good aspects of Dany, and the gains that she has made

That's because you're completely biased. There are two or three posters on these boards who have literally nothing to say about Jaime other than 'I want him to die the most painful death imaginable' and he has surprisingly few fans on the boards. When the Theon thread was raging there were about four people defending him against every other poster in the thread. Tyrion has a growing cadre of dedicated haters as well who won't give him an inch or permit him even the benefit of the doubt. Dany at least is almost universally credited with being a good person, and I can't think of any long term posters who don't admit that.

Either you don't actually read any other threads or you're conveniently ignoring the truth.

And can you please for the love of god stop trying to compare us to one-and-done posters who criticize her for her sexuality? I know you're utterly obsessed with it, but none of us care, nor have we ever voiced those criticisms.

Imagine that. We say she hasn't made plans for Westeros, and our only evidence is the fact that she hasn't made plans for Westeros.

I know. It's incredible how unreasonable we are, at times.

[brashcandy]

Rubbish. You whitewash everything she does and refuse to tolerate any criticism whatsoever. You're not in any way attempting to be fair, you only ever paint Dany in glowing tones.

Believe what you want Dave, but the criticisms people direct at Dany are oftentimes not valid and outright derogatory. Yours for instance, that she is not a long term planner does not hold up with regards to what we have seen. But of course, I know from experience that when you are proven wrong, you switch the goalposts.

Look at this thread of the discussion. You jumped up saying Dany is a planning long term for Westeros and in the very same post admitted that she hasn't planned long-term for Westeros. You defend her for the sake of the defense, not 'to give her a fair treatment'.

What are you talking about. I stated that before Dany came to Astaphor she was planning for Westeros. Indeed, the whole business with the Unsullied was about Westeros. How is this not long term planning to make sure she has her own forces so that she is not beholden to Illyrio's schemes? What I have stated, is that she has not made any additional plans for Westeros, and that she cannot be criticised for this because she is in the middle of a violent insurgency. Is this somehow hard to understand?

That's because you're completely biased. There are several posters on these boards who have literally nothing to say about Jaime other than 'I want him to die the most painful death imaginable'. Tyrion has a small club of dedicated haters, as well, and when the Theon thread was raging there were about four people defending him against every other poster in the thread.

Either you don't actually read any other threads or you're conveniently ignoring the truth.

I stand by my original contention. Of course there are other characters that people don't like and that they criticize harshly, but I am yet to see the kind of vitriol and blatant lack of understanding regarding Dany's age and the suffering she has had to endure, directed at other characters.

[tze]

So turning aside from Pentos, and going to Slaver's Bay to source her own army wasn't about Westeros? I must have missed something...

The book A Dance With Dragons, wherein she decides to hang out in Meereen for the conceivable future and makes absolutely no plans for Westeros.

No we don't. If you had actually understood what I wrote, instead of jumping at "short-sighted" you would have realised that the point is that she had to deal directly with Meereen. She never had the luxury of sitting back and considering things in hind sight. This is why that final chapter is so monumental to her growth. She achieves clarity from being on her own and away from a claustrophobic, oppressive situation, where she constantly had to be responding to new threats. Just like the dragons, Dany was very much imprisoned in Meereen - unable to leave because of the blockade, her own refusal to give in to the slavers, and then a plague at her gates. She was forced into being short sighted, not that she never considered the long term consequences of her actions.

Brash, you're the one who used the term "short-sighted". Surely you knew what it meant. And nobody can "force" a person into being short-sighted. By being short-sighted, a person is not considering the long-term consequences of their actions. I know you don't want to agree with me, but that's what you're writing.

And Dany was the one who put herself in Meereen in the first place and then decided to stay! Yes, I think she should have realized those decisions would have consequences. You haven't given any explanation for why consequences should elude Dany, other than her being a good person with good intentions, which obviously we know won't cause the universe to magically protect her.

None of us know exactly how Hizdahr stopped the Harpies, but that doesn't mean that Dany would have never asked him.

But we all agree that she didn't ask him.

The fact is that stopping the Harpies was what mattered because it brought peace back to the city. If she wasn't able to control her own city, then other insurgencies would have definitely starting popping up.

And my issue is that the Harpy wasn't really stopped---only temporarily halted. Which, yes, Dany could absolutely have foreseen.

Don't be ridiculous. How can you accuse someone of not doing the right thing in Westeros, and proceed to highlight specific plans that they have not made, when the person is busy dealing with a life and death situation. Your criticisms about "long term planning" have absolutely no credence.

Because the universe isn't going to take Dany's shitload of problems into account. She doesn't get extra points for being in a terrible situation. I'm discussing whether I think she'll be successful in taking Westeros, now that she's turned down Dorne and Quentyn got killed and whether or not she has been showing skills at long-term planning. I've made my opinions very clear. Shrieking that I'm being mean to Dany cause she's awesome isn't really based in the text.

When she is ready to plan her invasion/conquest/rescue of Westeros, then we can begin thinking of what she needs to do or highlighting where she went wrong. But she is currently in Essos, dealing with the situation there. Or did you completely not read ADWD?

First, you're also the same person who argued on this thread that the North didn't rebel against the Targaryens and Dorne can't withstand a full-on assault, so I don't think you get to accuse anyone of not reading these books.

Second, you argued that she was in fact planning for Westeros all along:

So turning aside from Pentos, and going to Slaver's Bay to source her own army wasn't about Westeros? I must have missed something...

So which is it, hmm?

Again, more falsehood. She suggested to Quentyn that they might be able to work together in the future (i.e. Dorne) but she realises that Quentyn himself is not fit for the danger that being her husband or a dragon rider would entail. So yes she sends him home, but that doesn't mean that she slammed the door on a future alliance with Dorne. Quentyn was too set on the marriage idea to suggest other options. You must remember, they came to Dany not the other way around. It was up to Quentyn to be the one suggesting alternatives, not Dany.

Quentyn made his offer. It was then up to her to make a counteroffer, it wasn't up to him to just pester her with new plans until she relented! That's how negotiations work.

Does Dany seem to be afraid of putting herself on the radar of people? She actively welcomes being known as the "breaker of chains" and Mother to her people and dragons.

:bang:

Which is not a smart plan, since her army and dragons together aren't enough to withstand attacks by every single slaving city! As we saw by the terrible bind Meereen is currently in! And which is the entire reason I don't thinks she was thinking long-term!

We'll see how she deals with the other slave socities in TWOW. Again, stop jumping the gun.

We've seen her dealing with other slave societies in ADWD! And her city ended up under siege!

In hindsight she may have come to see the flaws in her arrangement, but she doesn't have such luxuries like readers do.

It's not about hindsight. It's about foresight. Which is the entire basis of this argument.

People have directly implied this on this thread and others.

No, people have not "directly implied" this on this thread. You're reading into people's discussions the motivations that you want to read into them.

And . . . other threads? We're on this thread, brash.

A weakling in the sense that she's just another player in the game of thrones

:bang:

In Westeros, she IS just another player in the game of thrones!

and that she has no control over her dragons

She chained her dragons up because she had no control over them! Not because she thought they'd love being down there!

[tze]

her forces are foreign and not accustomed to Westerosi terrain

They are foreign and not accustomed to Westerosi terrain!!!

. . . Are you trying to argue that her forces are, in fact, Westerosi, and are, in fact, accustomed to Westerosi terrain? Cause that's nonsense. And if you're not arguing that, why on earth are you repeating a very good and textually-based point as if it were demonstrably false?????

Whilst Aegon lands on Westerosi soil with a company of sellswords and some elephants and most people believe that he'll sweep the land.

Says who? I can see him toppling the Lannisters, but Dany'd be capable of that as well. The issue is taking Dorne and the North. I don't see Aegon taking the North, and he's made more strides toward gaining Dornish support than Dany has.

Martin has consistently shown - by his keeping Dany out of Westeros for so long - that she's not meant to be a player for thrones; she'll probably end up having to rescue Westeros from annihilation if anything.

Or he's shown that Dany isn't meant to rule Westeros at all, that she's meant to devote herself to freeing the slaves of Essos. Your interpretation isn't the only logical one.

Oh spare me, spare me. Many people like myself who defend Dany have admitted to her not being perfect, we've admitted to her flaws and mistakes she may have made. But don't act like you yourself haven't picked up the side of attacking Daenerys, and seeing her quest in largely pessimistic terms.

I think she's made a lot of mistakes! Of course I see her quest in largely pessimistic terms!!!!!

She's either a slut and a nymphomaniac for sleeping with 3 men in her life

What????? Seriously, what????? Nobody here is saying she is! Seriously, where on this thread are you getting this?

The criticisms go above and beyond what I have ever seen for any other character

Which actually doesn't have anything to do with whether or not Dany actually has made a crapload of mistakes, you know.

We're trying to do a fair analysis of a character that actually merits it. If you feel my analysis is not "objective" enough for you, then that's the way I feel about yours too. It's all geared towards attacking and diminishing Daenerys. So good, we're even.

"Attacking and diminishing"? I'm discussing the character! I think she's made terrible mistakes, and I've pointed out why! Doing that is not "diminishing" Dany's character. I'd just like to have a discussion about what I and other posters have actually said without you starting to rant on topics that nobody has even brought up! Like Dany being a slut, for example. Who here is even saying that??

[iamthedave]

Believe what you want Dave, but the criticisms people direct at Dany are oftentimes not valid and outright derogatory. Yours for instance, that she is not a long term planner does not hold up with regards to what we have seen. But of course, I know from experience that when you are proven wrong, you switch the goalposts

I conceded that the statement was too sweeping, but stated likewise that the meat of my point was that she hadn't made plans for Westeros. Not that you've ever noticed me conceding points when I know I'm wrong, because that would mean you'd have to let go of your assertion that I'm unable to concede. even though I have. And showed it to you several times, and have done so in the very post you're talking about.

Really, it would be impressive if I didn't expect it of you.