[ADWD SPOILERS] Azor Ahai - The prophecy

[Black Crow]

I think the biggest clue so far as to who Azor Ahai is comes in Melisandre's chapter. She's looking into the fire, thinking to herself, "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only (Jon) Snow".

Of course, that clue seems almost too obvious for GRRM, but it's there nonetheless. She keeps thinking she'll see Stannis, but sees Jon instead.

Yeah, but that aint what happens at all. She is not asking for AA to be revealed unto her. She is trying to find out what has happened to Stannis who by that stage has gone missing. Because for the first time its her POV we see what she sees and there's all sorts of stuff in there - except Stannis. Yes Jonny Boy appears but only late on, with his name being spoken (a dodgy sign) and he's surrounded by skulls, which in the way of prophecies could either be interpreted as him being in danger, which is of course a natural conclusion from the assasination attempt that follows, or it could be interpreted, along with the other death and destruction stuff, and that ominous whispering of his name - remember the Great Other's name must never be spoken - to mean that it is Jon himself who represents danger.

Mel saying she looks for AA and sees Snow therefore he must be the true AA is indeed far to obvious for GRRM

[MtnLion]

Yeah, but that aint what happens at all. She is not asking for AA to be revealed unto her. She is trying to find out what has happened to Stannis who by that stage has gone missing.

Melisandre refers to as Azor Ahai, when making the request or even speaking with others.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

Yeah, but that aint what happens at all. She is not asking for AA to be revealed unto her. She is trying to find out what has happened to Stannis who by that stage has gone missing. Because for the first time its her POV we see what she sees and there's all sorts of stuff in there - except Stannis. Yes Jonny Boy appears but only late on, with his name being spoken (a dodgy sign) and he's surrounded by skulls, which in the way of prophecies could either be interpreted as him being in danger, which is of course a natural conclusion from the assasination attempt that follows, or it could be interpreted, along with the other death and destruction stuff, and that ominous whispering of his name - remember the Great Other's name must never be spoken - to mean that it is Jon himself who represents danger.

Mel saying she looks for AA and sees Snow therefore he must be the true AA is indeed far to obvious for GRRM

Yes, but the way it's worded is what gets me. "I pray for a glimpse of AA, yet R'hllor shows me only Snow".

She's specifically asking R'hllor for a vision of AA, who she assumes is Stannis, yet the fires show her Jon Snow instead. And not only does the fire show his face, but it whispers his name, and shows her that he's surrounded by danger as well.

True, she's clearly trying to check on Stannis, but she only asks for him by name once in the very beginning of the chapter. She then asks to see "your (R'hllor's) king, your instrument", and then she asks for a glimpse of AA. Yet Stannis is nowhere to be seen. Only Jon Snow appears to her. She doesn't say "I pray for a glimpse of Stannis, yet R'hllor shows me only Snow". She's specifically praying to see R'hllor's instrument, Azor Ahai, and R'hllor answers her with visions of Jon instead of Stannis. Stannis is nowhere to be found.

As I said before, it does seem a little too obvious, but I really do think there's something to it. Some people seem to think she'll abandon Stannis for Jon Snow in the next book. I didn't necessarily get that impression, but after her chapter, she does seem rather eager to impress Jon and gain his trust.

[Black Crow]

... Stannis is nowhere to be found ... after her chapter, she does seem rather eager to impress Jon and gain his trust.

Yes, but I think that's the point. She can't find Stannis and needs Jon to go looking for him, which is why I've argued that Mel was in fact the author of the Bastard letter and that if there was any sorcery going round at that point it was some kind of spell in the letter and the way it was worded to induce its readers/listeners to saddle up and go.

[chrisss0r]

"when the red star bleeds" could also refer to dorn starting a war against the 7K.

Jon also says that the wall looks different depending on the weather so dragons from stone could actually mean dragons from ice

[Black Crow]

Melisandre refers to (Stannis) as Azor Ahai, when making the request or even speaking with others.

Perfectly true, but as with a lot of these debates there's still too much of a tendency to argue over sentences taken out of context.

The Mel POV chapter opens with her feeling troubled: "The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the hearthfire. One more time. She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world on his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R'hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument."

So far so good. To her Stannis and AA are interchangeable, but then "She saw the eyeless faces again... " the towers by the sea", skulls, mist, fire, dragons etc. Quite obviously she's had a look in the flames at least once and probably a few times - "One more time" - and all she's seeing are repeated visions of some kind of apocalypse, with no sign of Stannis. We then get told of the scene in more detail after her encounter with Bloodraven and Bran, but its obviously the same one she's been getting all night and its only in the last vision, after the Bloodraven bit, that Jon appears amongst the skulls.

Hence my contention that the vision isn't about looking for AA and finding Jon. She is given a vision of the apocalypse, she's worried about the absence of Stannis/AA and when she does see Jon she doesn't see him wielding a sword of any kind, far less a flaming sword, and certainly not smiting the heathen as AA ought to be doing, but instead he is all too clearly linked with the skulls/death and destruction stuff. As I said above it could be argued this is a foreshadowing of the assassinaton attempt but taking the vision as it actually plays out and ignoring her wailing about not seeing Stannis, Jon's appearance in it has absolutely nothing at all to do with AA or hint that he might be AA. Its a dire warning. Its Bad... very very bad

[Kadence]

The Are Azor Ahai and the PWWP one and the same? thread contains an extensive discussion by me on why even prior to Dance I favored the three person notion. Now whether PTWP=AAR=3 people, or whether PTWP is only one out of 3 AARs, or AAR is only one out of 3 PTWPs, we don't know. We don't know which prophecy is for which figure.

As to who the three heads are, Jon and Dany are obvious. I favor Bran, then place Arya, Aegon, and Tyrion on about the same level of likelihood a bit below Bran. But it could be lots of people, even Sansa and Sarella. Pretty much no actual foreshadowing on the third head so far.

Only foreshadowing I can even see barely qualifies - that Rhaeghal is part green and Bran is a greenseer, Bran's story echoing the Lost Hero's tale, also there's the woods witch prophecy that the PTWP would come from the Aerys+Rhaella line. Although Aegon isn't really from that line, his false identity could have confused the woods witch. Thus a 3-person PTWP consisting of Jon, Dany and Aegon would fit her prophecy as it would be a "confused" prophecy.

I consider this interpretation of the woods witch's prpohecy quite possible yet no one seems to ever mention it other than me :) Also there would be a nice poetry to the three heads being two Targs and a Blackfyre. On the speculative side you might even theorize that Aegon gets greyscale, maybe even "dies" before having his "inner dragon" awakened.

There's also a theory I saw recently that Shiera Seastar was Quaithe. I find this as extremely plausible because literary-wise, it seems exactly like something Martin would do - Bloodraven is the guy who watches Jon and Bran, while his lover Shiera mirrors this role and watches Dany. And I think many of us had a suspicion that we'd learn more about Shiera - she apparently dabbled in life-extending magics (perhaps even taught Bloodraven herself) and if Shiera has already appeared onscreen, then Quaithe is the best bet. I think if Ran's wold book mentions Asshai anywhere in the Shiera bio, it will strongly support Shiera=Quaithe. So if Shiera=Quaithe it might support Bran as third head.

I was thinking lightbring will be a sword with dragon glass in it as well as valyrian steel which the two materials together could be what Dragonsteel is possiblly. Obviouslly obsidian is whats needed to kill the Others but I dont think the sword Lightbringer will simply be a dragon glass sword flaming cause thats nothing special at all. So I think some how the two will be forged together to make Lighbringer which is considered dragon steel. My exact theroy is Darksister will be found somehow and the will be combined with obsidian to make Lightbring for Jon who i personally think is AA

This notion of Dragonsteel being Valyrian Steel upgraded with obsidian is an interesting theory, and it fits with the notion of Jon's red sword from his dream being the reforged Ice. If Ice is reforged by somehow obsidian added in to forge "Dragonsteel" it would make perfect sense. Ice already needs to be forged back together so that's the perfect opportunity to modify it.

[Go! Jon Snow]

This is the best interpretation of the prophesie and i like it. Good thinking.

[Go! Jon Snow]

That's a great interpretation of the prophesy!

[Kadence]

The Children won't be working with the Others. Not only does it contradict what we've been told and align with none of it, but logically it does not make sense - Bloodraven lives with them and he's obviously not working for the extinction of humanity :) And Bloodraven with his magic would know if the Children were working with the Others, and the Children would just kill him because he'd be their enemy. So the CotF and Others aren't working together.

Now whether the Others used to be CotF long ago and are an offshoot is unclear. They appear to be a different species now though because Others die when struck by obsidian. CotF dying when hit by obsidian doesn't make any sense. The Others seem to have a relation to ice that CotF don't.

I also have no idea where this wight heat-seeker notion comes from. Seems a huge assumption based on little and would mean they hunted the Lord Commander purely by coincidence, which is quite a stretch. Wights being warged seems like the superior theory. Or it might be something else entirely.

G RR Martin publicly stated that the religion that Melisandre and the red priests practice is based on Zorastrianism.

...

Now, it gets a little confusing, Zoroastrianists feel there are going to be three saviors. One each 1,000 years and they will all have the ultimate goal of fighting falsehoods. Maybe GRRM said, lets change this relgion up a bit and put all three saviors together at one time period (Three heads of a dragon) and have them battle falsehood.

Fascinating. Now we already know there are three heads, but I didn't know that Zoroastrianism had three saviors. I tried to find out more about this three saviors thing but couldn't locate anything. Though the wiki for Zoroastrianism did mention something about winter:

In Zoroastrian eschatology, a 3,000-year struggle between good and evil will be fought, punctuated by evil's final assault. During the final assault, the sun and moon will darken and mankind will lose its reverence for religion, family, and elders. The world will fall into winter, and Angra Mainyu's most fearsome miscreant, Azi Dahaka, will break free and terrorize the world.

Interesting points about the seasons - it seems the long summer is beneficial as it allows people to harvest plenty. But it's really weird that there are "summer snows". If there are snows during summer, how is the winter supposed to be? Anyway I imagine that the balancing of Ice and Fire will lead to regular seasons, i.e. the seasons we know in our own world.

In colder climates in real life there can be snow in summer, it's just about the climate in the area. And I don't believe the seasons will become regular at the end, that doesn't seem in tune with the series. Especially with the last book's title - implies they're still stuck in winter. Or just entering a prolonged spring.

You have a prophecy in which a saviour prince is promised. That makes a prince that was promised (in prophecy).

Well then all prophecies are about a promised something or other :)

I agree with all those who believe that AA and Ptwp are one and the same

The simple fact that Mel thinks they are the same should make people pretty skeptical on this notion. The odds of one person being both AAR and PTWP are slim. AAR and PTWP being the same general entity but consisting of three people is much more possible however.

[Kadence]

And Dany hasn't "woken" dragons from stone: she's "birthed" dragons from stone.

You're splitting hairs here. They were already there in the eggs but petrified, hence in a sort of stasis mode. She definitely fits the "wake dragons from stone" line. Probably better than Jon's eventual fulfillment will. Jon can't wake Bloodraven, he's been awake and if anyone woke him it's Bran. The dragon eggs fit being "woken" more than Bloodraven can.

if snow, ice, and cold come with the Others, fire would actually be extinguished pretty quickly in any battle. It's very, very hard to keep a fire going in the middle of a blizzard.

Dragonfire is a blast, not something burning on a log. Blizzards don't affect explosions. I find it hard to believe dragons won't be effective against Others. Dragonfire should be effective against pretty much anything, short of thick stone (and it can even melt castle walls).

I think the biggest clue so far as to who Azor Ahai is comes in Melisandre's chapter. She's looking into the fire, thinking to herself, "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only (Jon) Snow".

And if Jon really is the product of R+L, and was born at the Tower of Joy, he would've been born in Dorne (a land of salt), amidst the smoke and fire of war. And "the Red Star Bleeds" could be in reference to House Martell, whose sigil is a red star pierced by a yellow spear. When the Red Star bleeds; i.e. when Elia and her children are raped and murdered.

But Mel is wrong as to what she asked for. She thinks she asked for AAR but she only asked for Stannis, King, and Instrument. Jon could be the King and Instrument she's looking for without being Azor Ahai. To me this seemed like an unreliable narrator instance - not the huge Jon=AAR clue everyone is taking it as. Now Jon's dream of wielding a red sword, that seems like more of a Jon/AAR clue.

On Elia being the bleeding red star - that's a huuuuge stretch :D He wasn't born under Elia. I mean it's not even necessary when Jon was stabbed beneath a bleeding star sigil! :)

Although I personally think Jon's eventual waking up might be a more clear fulfillment, and the stuff with Ser Patrek etc. was a foreshadowing of this and perhaps not the fulfillment itself. The stuff with Ser Patrek seemed more like Martin being "cute" to me (think he was just being cute with the Dany barren/son sets in west etc. stuff too) - remember that this was about Martin hating the Dallas Cowboys and a bet with some Cowboys fan (I'm pretty sure Wun Wun=Phil Simms, famed Giant with jersey #11 "one one" who slew the evil Cowboy knight). Also it was a very subtle fulfillment, I don't think too many of us caught the bleeding star thing. I think the actual fulfillment will be more obvious.

[The Great Cornholio!]

1) Retort - Johanna was Princess Rhaella's (who married Aerys the Mad) Lady in Waiting. This is when she she met Oberyn's Mother and they planned to wed Jaime to Elia and Cersei to Oberyn. Just because she was at CR in the months prior to birth does not mean that she was not at KL. (ASOS Chapter 70) CR - ah that is the house's seat of power. It is where Tywin lives too, even though as he serves as hand he dwells at the Red Keep. He would freely have his wife with him at court (else Tywin was at CR to impregnate her) as he has brother's to watch the lands.

2) Retort - Provide he knew that Aerys was the father. Would he be as stupid as to oppose the King openly either? That is a death sentence. Besides the liberties your father took during the bedding - due you really need a map to spell that out. Tywin never rose against that - why would he if the King took advantage. Tyrion is also the last piece of his wife. Johanna controlled him at home. You do not know if she made him swear to raise Tyrion regardless. It would justify his temperance and the reason he never would allow Tyrion to have the Rock. It is also why when Jaime took the role as a Kingsguard Tywin felt robbed of his only heir and refused to serve as hand from that point on.

3) Retort - You do not need love to make a child

4) Retort - You would have to be conscience to remember. Or, it was never rape. Again, Aerys took liberties at the bedding at the wedding. What makes you think that he wouldn't request it afterwards? It's good to be the King. Heck like father like son... Look at Rhaegar and the Lyanna story. You see a woman you want, take her. Your royalty - it is your right.

5) Retort - Cheap if you believe in fairytales. It adds a sense of tragedy to the whole story. It even humanizes Tywin in a way. It also symbolizes why he becomes so mean after Joanna's death. The refusal of Cersei for Rhaegar. Jaime becoming a Kingsguard. Slap after slap after slap. Tywin changed at that point at court. He was not the same man your are reading about during that time. You are simply reading what you want to read. You are villianizing Tywin because it feels justified. However, Tywin was once happy and smiled. He wasn't always the prick you read about. IT ALL changed with Tyrion.

Your assessment of Tywin before his wife's death is as wrong as it gets. This is the man who paraded his fathers mistress nude through the streets of Casterly Rock immediately upon his death. This is a guy who's always been cold.

[PatrickStormborn]

But the dragons of Dragonstone were long dead by the time Dany was born---so while Dragonstone was a place of salt, it was not a place of smoke.

And Dany hasn't "woken" dragons from stone: she's "birthed" dragons from stone. You can only wake something that's sleeping. Sam, I think, inadvertently makes a very good point in AFFC when he thinks about the Azor Ahai prophecy and wonders where you can find a "sleeping dragon", because after ADWD, we know a possible answer: north of the Wall lies a "sleeping dragon"---Bloodraven, whose sigil was an albino dragon, and who lays dreaming in his hollow hill. And we know weirwoods don't rot, but instead turn to stone.

And honestly, we don't know for sure whether dragonfire has any effect on the Others; if snow, ice, and cold come with the Others, fire would actually be extinguished pretty quickly in any battle. It's very, very hard to keep a fire going in the middle of a blizzard. Fire destroys the wights, but it seems like anything that obliterates the body would work on the wights (since they die for real when Summer eats them). We've never seen fire destroy an Other, so until we do, it's speculation that fire even affects them. And the Wall, which the Others presumably cannot pass, and which was built to defend against them, is made of ice, not fire.

My point being, we don't know that Dany's dragons will even be useful against the Others. (Dany's vision of fighting an ice-armored enemy at the Trident could easily refer to a battle between Dany' forces and the forces of King Jon of the North and Trident; Jon has a vision of fighting in ice armor, remember----the ice could even represent an army of the North, not just the Others). Azor Ahai will wake dragons from stone---but the prophecy doesn't actually say that fire-breathing dragons will destroy the Others.

That's a good point regarding the dragons. But I think hatching dragons from ancient stone eggs is pretty much the same as "waking dragons from stone". And whilst I like the idea of Bloodraven, it relies heavily on his sigil - and personally I don't think that prophecies are going to be fulfilled based on sigils.

We don't know whether Dany's dragons will be useful against the Others. But fire is probably the most effective way to defeat wights - the Others' army. So far we know that dragonglass can kill Others, and I think Sam mentioned that dragon steel (valyrian steel?) was also effective against them. Surely that means dragon fire itself would be an effective weapon against them?

She was not born under the bleeding star, but under a stormy sky. There is evidence that Jon was, note the reddened sky in one of the passages about the Tower of Joy.

I don't see how Danaerys entering the pyre is labelled as "re/birth". The dragons were born in the pyre, and before the bleeding star appeared. BTW, those are not the only dragons in the world, Bran knows that there is another near Asshai. Are any of the dragons named Lightbringer? (No, they are all named for characters that Danaerys had contact with.)

We are now at the end of a long summer, and darkness is gathering. Jon has been stabbed. In GRRM's cryptic way, he asks us if we are sure that Jon is dead. I don't think that Melisandre can or would give the kiss of fire to anyone to raise them. I think that raising Jon will be left to Catelyn, in her first act of kindness toward Jon. Having grown tired of vengeance, pseudo life, Catelyn will pass the kiss on to Jon so that he can be with and protect Sansa, Arya, and Rickon.

Dany was reborn in salt and smoke (Drogo's pyre) while the red star was visible in the sky. In the prologue of ACOK it is stated that summer has ended. So Dany was reborn at the end of the long summer and woke dragons from stone. At the end of ADWD winter arrives, but the long summer has already ended.

What does calling the dragons Lightbringer have to do with anything? I thought it was just a metaphor, and right now that seems quite possible.

And do you seriously think Catelyn is going to travel up to the Wall to save Jon? Really?

[Black Crow]

The Children won't be working with the Others. Not only does it contradict what we've been told and align with none of it, but logically it does not make sense - Bloodraven lives with them and he's obviously not working for the extinction of humanity :) And Bloodraven with his magic would know if the Children were working with the Others, and the Children would just kill him because he'd be their enemy. So the CotF and Others aren't working together.

Now whether the Others used to be CotF long ago and are an offshoot is unclear. They appear to be a different species now though because Others die when struck by obsidian. CotF dying when hit by obsidian doesn't make any sense. The Others seem to have a relation to ice that CotF don't.

I also have no idea where this wight heat-seeker notion comes from. Seems a huge assumption based on little and would mean they hunted the Lord Commander purely by coincidence, which is quite a stretch. Wights being warged seems like the superior theory. Or it might be something else entirely.

No, what I'm suggesting is that the Children are the Others and that the White Walkers are merely their magical/glamoured servants, just as Mel/Moqorro are the magical glamoured servants of the Red lot, and I don't think that the Others want to kill everybody in the world - that's just one of old Nan's tales and what the Red lot want us to think.

Which raises a curious question nobody seems to have asked. There is, rightly, speculation as to who the Others really are. Some of us think that they may be the Children or allied to the Children, while others, obviously disagree and no doubt we'll continue to argue about it until GRRM reveals all, but...

Who is behind the Red lot? GRRM has said we're not going to get actual manifestations of Deities (good), so the Others are presumably some lot up north who intend to invade Westeros for good or ill and whether they are the Children or the White Walkers is neither here nor there. What's intriguing me is who Mel and Moqorro are working for and why. I recall mention of a high priest called Benero, but otherwise they seem as vague and undefined as the Others.

[Black Crow]

That's a good point regarding the dragons. But I think hatching dragons from ancient stone eggs is pretty much the same as "waking dragons from stone".

Are they really so ancient? They were assumed to be by Dany when Illyrio presented them, but they came from Asshai and when Bran was being shown the world by Bloodraven he looked east to Asshai of the Shadow where "dragons stirred beneath the sunrise". Werre the eggs a lot fresher than she thought, and did Illyrio know they were fresh?

[tze]

That's a good point regarding the dragons. But I think hatching dragons from ancient stone eggs is pretty much the same as "waking dragons from stone". And whilst I like the idea of Bloodraven, it relies heavily on his sigil - and personally I don't think that prophecies are going to be fulfilled based on sigils.

So you think Dany needs to avoid trusting an actual kraken, an actual lion, an actual griffin, etc.? :)

GRRM has had prophecies about "dragons" actually refer to Targaryens on multiple occasions, and that's why I think it's possible that the Azor Ahai prophecy refers to "waking" Bloodraven instead of birthing Dany's dragons.

First, in The Hedge Knight, Prince Dareon tells Dunk about a dream Dareon had: in it, a great red dragon had fallen on Dunk, and while Dunk was alive, the dragon was dead. This "dragon" wasn't an actual dragon---it referred to Baelor "Breakspear" Targaryen.

Second, in The Mystery Knight, it was a major plot point that Daemon II Blackfyre misinterpreted his own dream----about a dragon hatching from an egg---to mean that an actual dragon would hatch from an actual egg. In fact, the "dragon" referred to Egg, aka Aegon Targaryen.

Third, Summerhall: we haven't been given an actual recounting of what happened there, but it's been hinted that someone---possibly Aegon V----had a vision about a dragon egg hatching and ended up killing a bunch of people trying to make that vision a reality. Except the only "dragon" that "hatched" was Rhaegar Targaryen.

You don't need to have read the Dunk and Egg tales to understand what's going on in ASOIAF, but we've seen D&E hint at things relevant to the main tale before: Bloodraven, for example, first appears in The Mystery Knight.

And although fire kills wights, snowstorms kill fire; dragons can't firebomb wights if their fire is extinguished by falling snow before the fire even hits the ground, so I really wonder how effective dragons would be in a battle against the Others. Bloodraven, however, is a greenseer of the old gods, and is apparently BFFs with the Children of the Forest, the one group that we know has tools effective against the Others (the warding of that cave, for example). JMO, but I think Bloodraven makes more sense than Dany's dragons because Bloodraven seems to have more tools at his disposal to fight the Others.

[chrisss0r]

No, what I'm suggesting is that the Children are the Others and that the White Walkers are merely their magical/glamoured servants, just as Mel/Moqorro are the magical glamoured servants of the Red lot, and I don't think that the Others want to kill everybody in the world - that's just one of old Nan's tales and what the Red lot want us to think.

Which raises a curious question nobody seems to have asked. There is, rightly, speculation as to who the Others really are. Some of us think that they may be the Children or allied to the Children, while others, obviously disagree and no doubt we'll continue to argue about it until GRRM reveals all, but...

Who is behind the Red lot? GRRM has said we're not going to get actual manifestations of Deities (good), so the Others are presumably some lot up north who intend to invade Westeros for good or ill and whether they are the Children or the White Walkers is neither here nor there. What's intriguing me is who Mel and Moqorro are working for and why. I recall mention of a high priest called Benero, but otherwise they seem as vague and undefined as the Others.

sorry but i think that's just nonsense o maybe wishful thinking for yet another major twist. There is not a single hint that the others might not be evil. Every single person beyond the wall is either in a magically protected cave or trying to gtfo.

Even if that was the case why would they not tell bran? It's not like they can trick mr "i can see everything that ever happened anywhere a tree stands or stood".

On top of that it would just be terrible storytelling. Imagine reading the lord of the rings and during the final battle for minas titith frodo falls into a cave where he finds an ancient scroll that explains how sauron is the good guy after all. :rolleyes:

[Black Crow]

sorry but i think that's just nonsense o maybe wishful thinking for yet another major twist. There is not a single hint that the others might not be evil.

It aint wishful thinking at all, GRRM has certainly very firmly hinted as much and I once again refer you m'learned friend Samwell Tarly who did indeed find a whole library full of scrolls:

“The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Knights King…”

As for Bloodraven not telling Bran, to paraphrase the immortal words of Mandy Rice Davies, "Well he wouldn't tell him, would he?" Having played a bit of this kind of game before for real, the way Bran was hurried to the cave was a pretty classic case of getting somebody where you want them by convincing him that its the only way to safety. There hasn't been much discussion of it lately, but a lot of people on this board have been well suspicious of what's going on in those caves, and it was in those discussions that the idea began to emerge that the Children and the Others might actually be one and the same.

[Kadence]

That's a good point regarding the dragons. But I think hatching dragons from ancient stone eggs is pretty much the same as "waking dragons from stone". And whilst I like the idea of Bloodraven, it relies heavily on his sigil - and personally I don't think that prophecies are going to be fulfilled based on sigils.

They usually refer to sigils actually. But in Dany's case there is a literal example.

No, what I'm suggesting is that the Children are the Others and that the White Walkers are merely their magical/glamoured servants, just as Mel/Moqorro are the magical glamoured servants of the Red lot, and I don't think that the Others want to kill everybody in the world - that's just one of old Nan's tales and what the Red lot want us to think.

The Others slaughter wildlings, including women and children, at every possible opportunity. They are definitely enemies of humanity - that's no fairy tale. They are not people Bloodraven would be working with.

Who is behind the Red lot? GRRM has said we're not going to get actual manifestations of Deities (good), so the Others are presumably some lot up north who intend to invade Westeros for good or ill and whether they are the Children or the White Walkers is neither here nor there. What's intriguing me is who Mel and Moqorro are working for and why. I recall mention of a high priest called Benero, but otherwise they seem as vague and undefined as the Others.

They are just a religious order - they work for themselves, and their religious agenda. They are like the Seven priests but with magic. They interfere in politics when it suits their interests. The Volantene nobles will probably learn that pissing off Benerro was not a good idea.

dragons can't firebomb wights if their fire is extinguished by falling snow before the fire even hits the ground

This is some extremely crappy dragonfire you are assuming. I think there's very little chance snow would affect dragonfire in this way. Dragonfire is some powerful shit, the most uber weapon of the whole series. Now if you said blizzards would make flying much more difficult for a dragon I'd agree - but of course I doubt Others can magic up blizzards at will. In any event it's quite safe to assume dragons should be a very powerful weapon against any enemy, including Others.

[Kadence]

It aint wishful thinking at all, GRRM has certainly very firmly hinted as much and I once again refer you m'learned friend Samwell Tarly who did indeed find a whole library full of scrolls:

Martin has said they might not be so evil - and the Others might not be evil from their own perspective. They seem to just consider humans vermin, and thus wiping them out is acceptable. But they are for sure enemies of humans. They attempt to wipe out all groups of humans, armed and unarmed. Relative to the interests of the human race, they are evil.

And there's a cataclysmic leap from thinking "details from the past are inaccurate and exaggerated" to "the truth is the complete opposite of every single detail we've ever learned". You are making things up from nothing.

You also haven't explained why obsidian kills Others. It's fairly evident they are not the same exact species at the CotF. Now whether they are a very ancient offshoot from magical genetic engineering thousands of years ago or something like that is a different story. We don't know the answer to that and can only make uninformed guesses.

As for Bloodraven not telling Bran, to paraphrase the immortal words of Mandy Rice Davies, "Well he wouldn't tell him, would he?" Having played a bit of this kind of game before for real, the way Bran was hurried to the cave was a pretty classic case of getting somebody where you want them by convincing him that its the only way to safety. There hasn't been much discussion of it lately, but a lot of people on this board have been well suspicious of what's going on in those caves, and it was in those discussions that the idea began to emerge that the Children and the Others might actually be one and the same.

Bloodraven has some shaky methods and is manipulative, but he's the ultimate Targ loyalist and former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He is beyond any doubt not working for the Others.