[ADWD spoilers]Galbart, Maege, and Robb's letter

[Ludd]

Bolvar

Actually I agree

Cat will support Harry the heir plus Sansa, led by Littlefinger against Jon AND Rickon (who she will believe is a fake).

[Ludd]

Actually if the "war of the Roses" theme is followed (with Starks as the Lancasters and Lancaster the Yorkists) then the Line will pass to Sansa through the Tyrion then Harry the Heir (Tudor from Wales - which is very much like the Vale married the last Lancaster daughter - Elizabeth of Woodevill I think).

Now I have depressed myself. No Luck for the Starks

We pretty much have the characters

Robb (Henry V - charismatic and a leader)

Loyal brother Jon, wise who may rule as regent for a weak son of Robb's (John Duke of Bedford played this role)

Rickon and Brandon (Princes in the Tower, believed dead, but possibly alive incognito)

Tyrion (Richard III)

I think that GRRM must have read the truly Excellent book by Georgette Heyer called Prince John (and yes despite her reputation for romance novels) this is a very well researched book. It was her REAL passion.

Somehow I see Martin's characters drawing on this book. I think I will cry.

[Ludd]

Just a thought

Manderley and Glover: Perhaps Robb through Grey Wind has a sense Rickon and Brandon are alive. They are specifically charged by Robb to seek them, and to assist. Bran would not be expected to have heirs so this is not such a succession issue but Rickon becomes a back up - especially if Jone keeps his vows about not marrying. These two however would not swear to Jon.

[Pelican]

Actually if the "war of the Roses" theme is followed (with Starks as the Lancasters and Lancaster the Yorkists) then the Line will pass to Sansa through the Tyrion then Harry the Heir (Tudor from Wales - which is very much like the Vale married the last Lancaster daughter - Elizabeth of Woodevill I think).

It depends on how closely Martin will follow history as his model. The Yorkist King Edward IV married Elizabeth Woodville, a beautiful woman with long blonde hair who was seen as a schemer. Their children were later declared illegitimate, including the two princes, who either disappeared or were killed. Elizabeth and Edward's daughter, Elizabeth of York, eventually married Henry VII, a Lancastrian Tudor (who set aside the illegitimacy business. Some believe he killed the two princes, even though Richard III usually gets the blame). In the not very long run, the Lancasters, Yorks, and Tudors all faded away and the English throne was essentially turned over to the German side of the monarchy. [i always saw the theme as Lannister/Lancaster and Stark/York.]

I like the ideas of Robb naming a surprise heir or of a battle between Cat and Jon, but would the North side with a zombie fighting to claim Winterfell for a daughter with a southron husband? With Winter here and the Others coming, I believe the Northern lords would focus on how best to protect their lands and people.

[StuSeaworth]

Maybe the Blackfyre rebellion set a precedent? Because unless legitimized bastards come after trueborn children regardless of age, Ramsay would have no motive to murder Roose's future progeny (besides being a murdering psycho that is).

Well he could still potentially kill them off to prevent them from trying to kill him and gain succession.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

It depends on how closely Martin will follow history as his model. The Yorkist King Edward IV married Elizabeth Woodville, a beautiful woman with long blonde hair who was seen as a schemer. Their children were later declared illegitimate, including the two princes, who either disappeared or were killed. Elizabeth and Edward's daughter, Elizabeth of York, eventually married Henry VII, a Lancastrian Tudor (who set aside the illegitimacy business. Some believe he killed the two princes, even though Richard III usually gets the blame). In the not very long run, the Lancasters, Yorks, and Tudors all faded away and the English throne was essentially turned over to the German side of the monarchy. [i always saw the theme as Lannister/Lancaster and Stark/York.]

I like the ideas of Robb naming a surprise heir or of a battle between Cat and Jon, but would the North side with a zombie fighting to claim Winterfell for a daughter with a southron husband? With Winter here and the Others coming, I believe the Northern lords would focus on how best to protect their lands and people.

Which is the most pressing concern.

Fuck Lannisters - northmen can deal with them anytime, winter is the real enemy.

[Ludd]

Yes I had thought that Lancaster = Lannister and Stark= York, but there is not a Henry V there at all ie a 15 year old Prince who wins lots of battles and leads an army. This is much more Robb.

But I like your legitimacy catch and the long blonde hair.

May be Martin had used the history but mixed up all the characters a bit. Keeps us guessing.

Mind you watch the legitimacy thing. - If Henry VIII is followed all the Starks are bastards because Catleyn was engaged to his brother - the rationale for the first divorce.

[Budj]

Jon turned down winterfell because A. it wasn't Stannis' to give and B. he would have had to foresake his (and his 'father's') gods. I don't think the oath was much of a concern for him.

If Robb's will names him heir he would accept it unless his siblings were alive. He would then utilize that position to do what the NW is too weak to do.

[Tini]

Jon turned down winterfell because A. it wasn't Stannis' to give and B. he would have had to foresake his (and his 'father's') gods. I don't think the oath was much of a concern for him.

If Robb's will names him heir he would accept it unless his siblings were alive. He would then utilize that position to do what the NW is too weak to do.

Unless his siblings were alive. We know they are, and I think Jon will find out about Rickon before he ever learns of Robb's intentions. If Littlefinger starts moving, Jon will find out about Sansa, too. I think Robb's letter, if it surfaces, will be more of sentimental value than anything else. It might have been different if Jon had learned of Robb's intentions when Robb was still alive, but Robb is dead and the situation has changed fundamentally. I don't think Jon will ever take WInterfell as his own.

I don't think that "doing what the Night's Watch is too weak to do" would be a good thing. It would be much better if they gave the Night's Watch the resources to do their job properly instead of undermining the institution even further.

[Cuttlefish]

Actually if the "war of the Roses" theme is followed (with Starks as the Lancasters and Lancaster the Yorkists) then the Line will pass to Sansa through the Tyrion then Harry the Heir (Tudor from Wales - which is very much like the Vale married the last Lancaster daughter - Elizabeth of Woodevill I think).

Now I have depressed myself. No Luck for the Starks

We pretty much have the characters

Robb (Henry V - charismatic and a leader)

Loyal brother Jon, wise who may rule as regent for a weak son of Robb's (John Duke of Bedford played this role)

Rickon and Brandon (Princes in the Tower, believed dead, but possibly alive incognito)

Tyrion (Richard III)

I think that GRRM must have read the truly Excellent book by Georgette Heyer called Prince John (and yes despite her reputation for romance novels) this is a very well researched book. It was her REAL passion.

Somehow I see Martin's characters drawing on this book. I think I will cry.

I think Stannis makes a much better Richard III, as the stern warrior king who disinherited his brother's children. War of the Roses outline is more effectual in Robert's storyline, considering he is quite similar to Edward IV.

And Elizabeth Woodville was not related to House Lancaster, she was simply married to a Lancaster supporter. Unless by Elizabeth of Woodville, you mean Elizabeth of York, her daughter. (name confusion there)

[Dragonguard]

If GRRM sets something up to happen, and then intentionally withholds what went down, you should be prepared for the unexpected. Why on earth are any of you so certain that Jon was named Robb's heir?

I think the most likely candidates are

1) Alys Karstark. Why else introduce her to the story? Also, I could see this as Robb atoning for kinslaying, pacifying the branches, making the head of House Karstark heir to Winterfell.

2) Harry the Heir. When asked about who to name, Catelyn recounted how Robb has distant cousins in the Vale, in Houses Royce (Moon), Corbray, Waynwood, and Templeton. In A Feast for Crows, Harry pops up, who is parts Waynwood, Templeton and Arryn, set to marry Sansa. It seems like quite a twist to me.

Mainly because robb says he wants to name jon 'you forget eddard stark had FOUR sons' 'she had not fogotten she had not wanted to consider it but there it was' and catelyn says she can see he has made up his mind 'i dont have to i'm king' it gives a strong impression he has named jon though you dont see it for sure (i hope so) it would be so fitting and there is the forshadowing of him turning down winterfell from STANNIS and all the times it is mentioned from others who assume he wants winterfell yet jon has been loyal to the starks

As for harry the heir i doubt it (though someone other than jon is possible) it almost definately wont be someone from the vale cos when cat suggests it robb says they are not stark blood anymore they are southern - cant remember the exact quote but he wouldnt name someone his northern bannermen wouldnt accept surely he'd be giving the north to southerners which is what they are fighting 'the king IN THE NORTH' not in the vale...

[GallowsKnight]

I don't see how Howland Reed's outing of Jon's true parentage would change Robb's letter that much. He's still a Stark. If he was born out of wedlock, he's has still been legitimized.

[Ludd]

I feel fairly sure Martin has set us up for a Cat vs Jon battle.

Catelyn will support Sansa (and possibly Tyrion against Jon. Rickon and Alys Karstak just confuse the issue. Cat is too mad to even recognise Rickon - I do not think she loved him much - Bran was her favourite then Sansa then Robb with Arya and Rickon rather neglected.

[TheeMikeHoncho]

I dont think that any of the titles Jon may or may not get will ultimately matter. Jon's rise has been not through inheritence, but because people have chosen to follow him. This has been the overlying theme of leadership throughout his story arc. He was chosen to be the the Lord Commander by his brothers, just as Mance was chosen to lead his people. Jon has done things to aid the wildliings and shortly before his "assassination" he had every leader within the wildling community marching south with him to put a foot up Ramsey's sick ass. If Mel's vision of Man to Wolf to Man comes to fruition and especially if it is done through "green" magic via Morna or Val, then you can count on not only the wildlings, but the clans (Flint, Norrey, ect) to follow him, as they are ardent followers of the old gods.

[Bini]

I don't understand how this assumption came to be such a certainty. How can one even be sure that Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont are carrying the letter upriver?

If someone could transcript where in the books that is explicitely stated, I would be convinced. Actually, I don't think that's even hinted at...

The purpose of their trip to Greywater Watch is miitary tactics, it's part of the plan Robb devised to win Moat Cailin back, I couldn't find any mention as to why should Robb think Howland Reed needs to know, more than others, who his successor is. The letters Glover and Mormont are carrying contain nothing more than false orders by Robb to the Lords that remained in the North, that should be taken there after Mormont and Glover reached Greywater Watch.

ASoS, Catelyns POV:

"Go upriver flying my banner. The crannogmen will find you. I want two ships to double the chances of my message reaching Howland Reed. Lady Maege shall go on one, Galbart on the second." He turned to the two he'd named. "You'll carry letters for those lords of mine who remain in the north, but all the commands within will be false, in case you have the misfortune to be taken. If that happens, you must tell them that you were sailing for the north. Back to Bear Island, or for the Stony Shore."

Robb isn't even sure if travelling upriver is safe, and that is exactly why he sends false orders. I don't think he would send a letter containing his wil, or a legitimizing decree with them in such circumstances.

[bemused]

I've often wondered if there was some way the document could have been secreted in the casket containing Ned's bones ... even if the silent sisters left first , they would move slowly and might have easily been overtaken..

Lady Dustin's Stark hatred doesn't ring true ( I think it's a cover story ), but that would be an alternate reason for her to be watching for Ned's bones.. and I'm not sure she doesn't already have them .