[ADwD Spoilers] Am alone in my feelings about Jon Snow?

[Selmy]

I don't think everything Jon does turns out well.

He's a bastard son hated by his evil stepmother and cast aside. His father refuses to tell him about his mother and sends him to the shitty NW, knowing its the shitty NW.

He's constantly berated, forced to kill his friend, and fight for people he's sworn to fight against. He betrays the one girl he's even been with and presumably loves on some level to return to the shitty NW. Then he defends the Wall and gets called a traitor.

Finally it seems like he might finally get some due but then he's made LC which shoves a ton of responsibility on him and turns him into a cold hearted bastard.

Oh yeah, he's also stabbed to death by the shitty NW.

I would if anything classify Jon as a tragic hero.

[Saracen]

Let's see here--

Jon from the beginning of GoT has been:

1) Moody and emo, or as Alys Karstark describes him: "Sullen." He has little to no wit, unlike Tyrion.

2) Arrogant to his peers;

3) Envious and power-hungry, although his honor tries to suppress these as much as possible;

4) May not be ugly, but he has never been portrayed as the womanizer or teen idol that Jaime was/is, and you even get the sense that his brother Robb was more coveted when they were youths.

People who don't like Jon probably only rail against him because he clearly comes across as your cliche fantasy protagonist. He's a bastard, unloved, great with a sword (well, only in comparison to his brothers of the Watch), and honorable to a fault.

It's as if they don't exactly hate Jon the character...they just hate the idea of him, especially in a series that consistently upturns fantasy tropes. But even if he fits the archetype of our fantasy "hero," he's far from flawless or perfect. Reminds me of non-conformists for the sake of non-conformity -- ie. those who'll stop listening to their favorite songs or artists just cause they became popular.

He's in no way power hungry.

[Chirios]

He's in no way power hungry.

More of a glory hound. He wants respect. He felt like he was denied that when he was growing up, that's why in the beginning of his NW manship he wanted respect for nothing, but he got his arse kicked by Donal Roye and that snapped him out of that pretty sharpish.

It's ironic really. Catelyn feared Jon wanted Winterfell, which was true, but only because Winterfell symbolised a respect that Jon felt he could never attain, a respect denied to him by Catelyn at least partly because she felt he wanted Winterfell.

[Dunnii]

I love Jon Snow. And I'm one of those that might quit the series if I find out his story is over and he is actually dead. I think it's bad storytelling to give me a character such as him and then just kill him the way he was killed...

We all root for underdogs; that is incredibly common in our stories. He is the bastard of a well respected house. The outcast. A man who tries to do the right thing. I EXPECT him to continue. I expect him to matter. I expect his life to mean something.

I'm not a fan of this theme that if you are honorable, you die. I really hope that is not the lesson GRRM is going to pound in my head by the time this is over.

[Aegar]

I love Jon, and I think of all of the characters in the series he has changed the most. He was just the arrogant and entitled Bastard of Winterfell who had too many drinks and not enough respect, and he's become a man of the NW all the way through. He's faced hard times as much as anyone else, and he's the hero in a way. The tragic hero. I hope he's not dead.

[bacchys]

People's opinions on Jon's character aren't going to change all of a sudden, but it might be possible to actually make some good points about Jon being alive or dead.

Personally, I expect man!Jon to be dead, and that Jon will live on as Ghost (I mean, seriously, the wolf was named Ghost). How do those who think he survived think he dealt with the stabbings?

Melisandre is there at Castle Black, and probably even in the crowd that gathered the disturbance from the giant killing Ser Patrek. We know the Red Priests have the ability to heal.

We only saw Jon getting stabbed four times. Well, three, actually, since he manages to mostly evade the first. Getting stabbed in the stomach is not a quick way to die. There's no mention of him getting stabbed in the heart.

So, I think it's quite probable that others start to realize what Marsh et al. are up to and intervene, and Melisandre is able to save his life.

[Maysek22]

Whats up with the hate on people coming back from death in the series? Has there been more than i can think of? Minor character beric dondarian, Cat, possibly gregor...are there a bunch more i'm missing? Drogo i supose got healed somewhat...I dont know, i just dont think its been as prevalent and story ruining as others i guess. I still feel that if my favorite characters die, such as selmy, he'll stay dead, in fact i feel it for almost every character left in the series after jon...

[delete this account pls]

It's been a good long while since I was a regular in the book forums, but I don't remember Jon being overwhelmingly popular. I seem to recall he had a large and vocal minority of detractors. As for myself, I don't hate or even dislike him, but he's never been a favourite.

Oh, he's definitely a pretty boy though. Ygritte says so straight out. Alys Karstark and Val both seem pretty hot for him as well. I like that the show actually had a bit of fun with this, with Robb and Theon teasing him about it.

[The Oncoming Storm]

I used to hate him at the beginning, maybe because Kit's face annoys me, but after he got rid of Ygritte and became Lord Commander, I began to like him... bad idea.

I don't think he stays dead.

[Zezibesh]

(1) The rampant fanboyism of practically ever reader of this series towards Jon Snow.

Basing your opinion on the fanbase of a character is extremely silly

He is a good commander

So good that he failed to convince his men about his views on the wildlings and got stabbed as a result

a warg

Ever Stark child is a mary sue then

physically beautiful

Explicitly stated when? He looks a lot like Ned, which is saying he's pretty plain. I admit that his Ned-ness plus personality may attract ladies though, but that's not exactly the argument here.

an expert swordsman

There are hundreds better than him. Mance, who has never exactly been claimed to be a swordsman worthy of songs, beat him.

But if Jon Snow stays alive and ends up King of the World

I agree with you, I don't want him ruling over a kingdom of (undead) butterflies and (dire) puppies with Dany as his queen but I have faith in GRRM.

[ipsuel]

I actually like Jon at this point. The first book or two I thought he was 'eh' -- but I've actually come to like him alot. I would prefer that he live, and there is no news to the contrary, so I don't feel its a ploy (dead and back) *yet*, since we were never told he died, or even was fatally wounded.

That is conjecture at this point, I believe, but its not in the book. Still, I hope he lives, and I am 100% sure he does, in one form or another.

I don't want the dead and back ploy used -- I just want him to heal and get back to business. Chances of that are quite slim, though :-)

[olennaredyne]

I thought Jon was a great character. The story needs its hero character that people can side with. Jon is that character. Otherwise who do we have left as real protagonists? Dany? Fuck her, she is annoying and dim witted and I don't connect well with female characters in novels. Tyrion? He is a supporting character at all times. Jon is your leading man - take it or leave it. Anyone who says they don't like Jon is taking a shit on the series.

I thought that the reason why everyone liked ASOIAF was because it didn't have your traditional fantasy heroes? That it's not the clean-cut "farm boy with magical powers" shtick, which by the way, is the gist of hundreds of fantasy novels out there. And you don't connect well with female characters, so there should be none? What's your deal?

[nategator]

If GRRM permakills Jon I will be impressed.

If GRRM just cliffhanged Jon then GRRM has more to prove on why Jon's continued existence adds to the story, especially since GRRM will appear to have lost his edge.

[olennaredyne]

Whats up with the hate on people coming back from death in the series? Has there been more than i can think of? Minor character beric dondarian, Cat, possibly gregor...are there a bunch more i'm missing? Drogo i supose got healed somewhat...I dont know, i just dont think its been as prevalent and story ruining as others i guess. I still feel that if my favorite characters die, such as selmy, he'll stay dead, in fact i feel it for almost every character left in the series after jon...

Also the Hound and Brienne (presumed dead by most and turned out to be false). And now possibly Aegon. Yeah, that's a lot.

[Blue Steel]

Who would replace him as the hero at the Wall? The only other characters who have been developed as much as Jon has are Dany and Tyrion. If Jon is really dead, then I won't read anymore of the series.

Besides, killing Jon to appease the "killing heroes is cool" crowd would be bad writing. It was a novelty at first but now it's been turned into a cliche by GRRM just as much as reviving them has.

[jhelden]

This also takes a lot to simply say he's dead to begin with. He was stabbed and wounded, surrounded by allies that are likely to come to his side immediately.

Aegon has yet to be proven to be Aegon except simply through the words of rather shady characters that may simply be vying for power in their own way. Also, Martin has a way of showing that coming back from death exacts a heavy toll upon the character of the individual. Drogo came back a shadow of his former self, Cat is consumed by revenge, the Hound appears utterly mindless. It is not as if these characters come back and are the exact same or suffering from some soap opera amnesia.

I rather enjoy Jon Snow and Tyrion because they can be related to. They are both outcasts in their own way, never fully accepted by their peers and struggle to live up to the expectations that others might place upon them. The ironic thing is to all this that most people seem to dislike him because he hasn't "suffered" like the other characters and I'm not sure what more he has to suffer in order to alleviate this perception.

Ned executed.

Robb, horrifically betrayed and executed.

Catelyn, murdered. (though she may have treated him badly, she was still the only mother figure he had)

Bran and Rickon presumed betrayed and murdered.

Theon, betrayed his family. (he may as well have been a brother to him)

Halfhand, killed by himself.

Ygritte, he was forced to leave to honor his vow to his brothers and then later killed, dying in his arms.

At sixteen he's in charge of making decisions to save an entire nation that does not care about them and does not realize the danger. He's doing his very best to save all that he can, while honoring his vow even when his former home is sacked and his brothers thought to be butchered. In the end, for all this he is betrayed by his brothers and stabbed even as he makes the decision that he believes will save them all from this threat beyond the Wall.

How much more do you want from him? Does he need to have both his arms cut off? I think the only reason a lot of you can't empathize with him is due to the varying POV's you are exposed to through the course of the story. You realize Bran and Rickon aren't dead. You know that Arya is safe from Ramsay and can assume that Stannis is safe. Try this, go through all the books and read only his POV's. It might help cut out the clutter that the other POV's put inside your head and get inside Jon's a little more.

[ipsuel]

This also takes a lot to simply say he's dead to begin with. He was stabbed and wounded, surrounded by allies that are likely to come to his side immediately. <snip>

Thank you. That's been bugging me. If people 'assume' that he is dead or fatally wounded, then fine -- but nowhere does the book indicate this (unless I missed it, which is possible).

Yes he was stabbed, and seemingly pretty bad -- however, that doesn't mean GRRM killed him, or killed him and will bring him back, or anything.

It means he was stabbed and we simply have no more info on that.

[Daemon23]

I have never found Jon to be sympathetic at all. Arya, yes. Even Bran, who can be forgiven his self-pity because he's a.) been crippled and b.) is nine.

Jon is self-pitying. He knew going to the Wall that it meant forswearing all ties of kinship. He chose that. But as soon as he regrets that choice he is ready to break his vow and leave. He whined and sulked over not being named a Ranger, and could not simply humble himself to his assignment, only accepting it when Sam was able to spell it out in terms that appealed to his pride. He shows no respect for the traditions of the Night's Watch nor for the experience of sworn brothers many years his senior. He's spoiled, arrogant, presumptuous and shallow.

What's to like?

[jhelden]

I have never found Jon to be sympathetic at all. Arya, yes. Even Bran, who can be forgiven his self-pity because he's a.) been crippled and b.) is nine.

Jon is self-pitying. He knew going to the Wall that it meant forswearing all ties of kinship. He chose that. But as soon as he regrets that choice he is ready to break his vow and leave. He whined and sulked over not being named a Ranger, and could not simply humble himself to his assignment, only accepting it when Sam was able to spell it out in terms that appealed to his pride. He shows no respect for the traditions of the Night's Watch nor for the experience of sworn brothers many years his senior. He's spoiled, arrogant, presumptuous and shallow.

What's to like?

He was 14 when the events you describe occur, the show does a disservice in portraying him as older. Every single 14 year old in existence, as far as I know, is sullen when they aren't the center of attention, prideful and utterly arrogant especially when they are good at something.

But through the series he grows an awful lot. He makes hard decisions that others would not have made, he is shown by others than the vow he took is the same honor that his father had and when reminded of this he seems to come around to do his duty. This all makes me enjoy him more as a character than others which are shown as they are and remain stagnant throughout the series. I'm enjoying watching him grow up.

[Ikonoklastik]

As far as ASOIAF is concerned, I think Jon staying dead would be more cliche than anything else. Same with Stannis.

So far, here's what has happened to the "good guys" in the series:

Ned: betrayed & executed

Robb: betrayed & killed

Catelyn: betrayed & killed, then brought back as some monstrous thing that basically isn't Cat

Tyrion: falsely accused of regicide, betrayed by Shae, finds out that he unknowingly raped Tysha, kills his father, becomes suicidal & is sold into slavery

Jon and Stannis have both been dragged through the mud enough. I think the attitude that if anything good happens, it's cliche... is a little silly. The "good guys" do have their victories occasionally, even IRL.