[ADwD Spoilers] Am alone in my feelings about Jon Snow?

[Phostopheles]

Jon Snow is too much like Harry Potter for me to like. Just as shallowly created and developed. No glaring virtues or flaws beyond a vague sense of honor and plot-convenient naivety. For no apparent reason, his acquaintances are polarized; most are fast friends after an irrelevant "trial by combat," and anyone who isn't is clearly evil. His actions have very few consequences, and when conflict actually does arise, it is resolved magically, either through a deus ex machina or through a reckless decision that just happened to be the single, perfect solution. Really, everyone I know personally who prefers Jon Snow chapters to others gravitate toward the same Gary Stu types, comic book heroes and the like. He's a juvenile character for the juvenile audience.

I hope he dies, I really do. Because up until this point he existed more as a window to the Wall than a bleeding personality. Because there are plenty of better characters that deserve more screentime. Because I will have a Smirnoff Ice and Bonfire with my books if the series ends with a massive zombie war.

But he won't die. Because sometimes life just sucks, and you need GRRM to remind you.

[Captain Know]

And by feelings I mean, am I the only one who wishes that Jon Snow actually DOES die? For good.

Honestly! Its because of two things:

(1) The rampant fanboyism of practically ever reader of this series towards Jon Snow.

(2) The lack of misfortune he has to endure. Every other character gets maimed, sold into slavery, or have their plans utterly dashed against the wall.... Except Jon. Everything he does is magical and happens almost flawlessly. (There are a few bad things that happen to him, but nothing compared to other characters) Also he is too perfect it sickens me. He is a good commander, a warg, physically beautiful, an expert swordsman, etc If he is also a god reborn now I think I will throw up

This series is one I really enjoy, the characters seem real and the events aren't all flowers and candies like every other fantasy book ever written. But if Jon Snow stays alive and ends up King of the World like he is headed towards I will be a very sad panda.

Off to the Night Watch with you. :fencing:

[RabbinsDuck]

Heh, I think some readers will only be happy when every single Main character is killed off and AA is actually... Tommen!

[Phostopheles]

Heh, I think some readers will only be happy when every single Main character is killed off and AA is actually... Tommen!

It is known.

[freshandclean]

People who don't like Jon probably only rail against him because he clearly comes across as your cliche fantasy protagonist. He's a bastard, unloved, great with a sword (well, only in comparison to his brothers of the Watch), and honorable to a fault.

It's as if they don't exactly hate Jon the character...they just hate the idea of him, especially in a series that consistently upturns fantasy tropes. But even if he fits the archetype of our fantasy "hero," he's far from flawless or perfect. Reminds me of non-conformists for the sake of non-conformity -- ie. those who'll stop listening to their favorite songs or artists just cause they became popular.

Yes and no. Jon's character reminds me a lot of your average Final Fantasy protagonist. Very emo in the beginning before achieving greatness later on. I think a lot of what colored my opinion of Jon was R+L=J because once I deduced that I pretty much knew that he was meant to be the "hero" and, IMO, his role in the series significantly narrowed, IMO. I'd be surprised if he didn't either "save the world from the Big Bad", rose up to King of the Realm (Dany consort or not), died a heroes death, remained at the The Wall as the bestest ever commander they've ever known, or a combination of these. I'd love for GRRM to prove me wrong, but I don't see that happening. Even with his "death" it's just a means to an end.

Contrast with Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, Jaime, and probably the rest of the cast bar Dany. I like not knowing how they'll end up. What role will they have. What is the outcome of their journey. Their journeys, to me, seem much more open ended, and thus more interesting. And even though they have a bit of plot armor themselves, I still don't believe they're as "safe" as Jon/Dany at this point. I mean no one truly thinks Jon is dead, but if in the next book Sansa bites it, for example, I wouldn't automatically think that GRRM is going to "resurrect" her in some way just because she's Sansa.

All that said, I simply find Jon to be a bit boring. I feel like I've read/watched/played this character before. Jaime is your average anti-hero cliche and yet GRRM wrote him in a way that made me interested in him regardless (some might not agree). I think GRRM could have made Jon more interesting but I get the sense that he was a bit too careful in writing Jon so that the audience likes/roots for him. In other words, I'm very aware that I'm supposed to root for him. Same could be said about Tyrion and Arya, but at least GRRM gave them enough amorality that it's not so obvious. He let's them do some awful things and leaves it to the audience to side with them or not. He hardly (if ever) does that with Jon. He always seems to have an out for his "slightly less than white hat" actions.

For no apparent reason, his acquaintances are polarized; most are fast friends after an irrelevant "trial by combat," and anyone who isn't is clearly evil.

This is basically part of the reason I feel that GRRM is too careful when writing Jon. Those that hate him are either your standard mustache twirling villian, or, before they all bit it, your wizened good mentor. I mean contrast Thorne, Slynt, Rattleshirt with Donal Noye, Mormont, and Aemon. It's really a bit manipulative, IMO.

[Phostopheles]

This is basically part of the reason I feel that GRRM is too careful when writing Jon. Those that hate him are either your standard mustache twirling villian, or, before they all bit it, your wizened good mentor. I mean contrast Thorne, Slynt, Rattleshirt with Donal Noye, Mormont, and Aemon. It's really a bit manipulative, IMO.

It feels too much like boarding school.

And I have to add a disclaimer: I don't have the book yet, so I don't know all the details that led up to this Caeserian section. A small part of me is hoping that Jon's arc reached a sufficient, if disappointing conclusion that any mystery revolving around his character could be discovered post-mortem to equal effect. We didn't have enough clues to support the Renly/Loras secret until after Renly died...for all we know Jon's parentage was never intended to be made explicit in the series, only something that clever fans could deduce. I doubt the series will go in that direction, but I'd be very glad in the offchance it did.

[beehives]

I think we just like who we like. I hated Tyrion in the first three books for his entitlement complex. Only started to like him in Dance when he met Penny who challenged him on that. Even though Tyrion annoyed me to no end I still understood why he's called the greatest character in fantasy fiction. Same with Jon - of course you can hate him for his flaws (or to some, his lack of them), but surely we can understand why he's memorable compared to all the crappy fantasy characters out there and meaningful to the "feel" of ASOIAF. Imagine ASOIAF without him and what do we have? He's our gateway to understanding the Night's Watch--a setting which I think is a compelling character in itself.

As some posters have shown he's suffered enough to get past being called a stuffed shirt (he's no Aragorn in LOTR).

I think Jon had a mental breakdown in the last chapter of ADWD. And if Martin is realistic, he'll give Jon a bad case of PTSD once he's resurrected. It's one of the worst illnesses to live with after trauma.

[Gogossos]

I find the Interesting = Amoral arguments puzzling. I found Tywin interesting, I also Ned interesting, I found Arya interesting...you get the point. It's about the situations the characters find themselves in. Tyrion was interesting in ACOK, not so much in ADWD. Just because a character makes morally questionable decisions doesn't automatically make him/her interesting. What's the effect of those decisions, the circumstances those decisions were made, the reasons they were made, etc? If you hate Jon just because he'll end up saving the realm of men, and therefore not interested in how he overcomes his challenges, or his journey from bastard-to-hero, or how he deals with his shortcomings; does this mean Theon's arc more interesting simply because of what he did to Bran and Rickon?

[coppertongue]

Having Borroq mind control NW brothers and attack is the best thing to advance Jon's warg side. It reveals how far-reaching a skin-changers powers are. So far he has really shown only one solid reach into Ghost, now he's forced to be thrown deep into his other life. As far as initial reaction, the NW will be in shambles after all Jon has done to build it up, then later the reaction against wildlings will be a great story, will be especially crazy if we're to find Tormund was privy to the attack.

As far as Jon being unlikeable, to me he's the most relateable character, and painfully so. He's so full of his own despondancy, and tries to hide it, that he is cross with everyone and mostly uncaring of what's seen through other eyes. Even in all his personal growth he remains the same snotty selfish person. But that's also his strength, he does what needs to be done, mindless of consequence. Jon is also the least mysterious character, what you see is what you get with him. Even Sansa's fool heart was growing cloudy in Crows.

[FatCatOberyn]

I don't think he's permanently dead. I'm almost certain he's coming back. But, as a personal preference, I would rather he stay dead than be zombified, or warged into Ghost.

On another note, if Jon is toast, then I want Jamie to be the ultimate hero of the series. Throw the prophecies out the window and let's have Jamie be AA. (Yes. I have a crush on the self-pitying, crippled, incestuous, kingslayer whose idea of an act of love is throwing a child off a tower)

Yes! Jaime as the ultimate hero :thumbsup:

But, really, Jon being alive would be too much. Until now, Beric, Catelyn and Gregor were revived, and with Baby Aegon and Mance turning out to be alive, it's starting to get pointless. If Jon survives, we might as well bring Robb, Ned and Oberyn back too.

To think that GRRM criticized Tolkien for bringing Gandalf back... :tantrum:

[longlivestark]

Yes! Jaime as the ultimate hero :thumbsup:

But, really, Jon being alive would be too much. Until now, Beric, Catelyn and Gregor were revived, and with Baby Aegon and Mance turning out to be alive, it's starting to get pointless. If Jon survives, we might as well bring Robb, Ned and Oberyn back too.

To think that GRRM criticized Tolkien for bringing Gandalf back... :tantrum:

Well Beric was always brought back off screen, Catelyn would probably be better off dead, and Gregor is basically no different from a Zombie. With Aegon he may not even be real and Mance... well he was killed and brought back in the same book so i don't really know how i feel about that.

[Skadhi]

At any rate, he is not dead yet. I'm pretty sure Mel will at least try to save him. She has seen him too much in her fires to just let die.

Part of me wants him to stay dead, but I also really don't want him to. His death has the potential to undo the watch, since the wildlings (and Thormund) wont be happy about his gutting right in front of them, and they have way more numbers.

So yeah, he can die, but only if it precipitates the story in a believable way.

:thumbsdown:

I'm a little late to the party, but...

Nowhere does it say that Jon dies. Nowhere. He got stabbed four times, but Martin didn't write it in such a way that you should even think he's dead.

He's not dead. It's as simple as that. He might be injured, but still very much in the land of the living.

[axels15]

I want him to stay dead mostly because I am really tired of Martin's "You thought he was dead, but he is actually alive" tricks, which are getting ever more contrived. Plus everything which goes against prophesies is a plus in my book, the overreliance of prophesies as plot devices has significantly lessened my enjoyment of many fantasy novels.

Did anyone honestly actually think that Davos or Brienne were actually dead? The only person to surprise me to still be alive after being killed was Cat. I mean come on, Brienne with the saying a word thing was obvious there was more to it, and Davos had a pretty good shot at not being dead considering who it was that he was with (Manderly is fat, not dumb)

[axels15]

I'm a little late to the party, but...

Nowhere does it say that Jon dies. Nowhere. He got stabbed four times, but Martin didn't write it in such a way that you should even think he's dead.

He's not dead. It's as simple as that. He might be injured, but still very much in the land of the living.

I don't buy that. He was stabbed in the gut and between the shoulder blades, plus another place that is not necessarily determined, yet he is only feeling cold by that point. I can't believe he would not be dead at that point. Besides, if he is AA reborn, the whole dead reborn thing would really work with him actually having been killed

[Buried Treasure]

I thought that the reason why everyone liked ASOIAF was because it didn't have your traditional fantasy heroes? That it's not the clean-cut "farm boy with magical powers" shtick, which by the way, is the gist of hundreds of fantasy novels out there.

Actually I like ASOIAF because it has a layered medieaval-esque society rather than your typical medieval-lite world with 100-percent literacy rates and peasants who never have to consider the consequences of back-chatting anyone and where the farm boy can become a top-ranking warrior in a matter of weeks. I don't mind seeing a hero who fits the heroic archetype in ASOIAF, or magical wolves, or true prophesy - because the reason I read fantasy is because I enjoy seeing these tropes. The reason I re-read ASOIF more than any other series is because I enjoy seeing these tropes done well. The familiar conventions have to be present in order for the cliches to be shattered and expectations overturned, and I don't see it as trying to write a new kind of fantasy so much as simply better storytelling.

For no apparent reason, [Jon's] acquaintances are polarized; most are fast friends after an irrelevant "trial by combat," and anyone who isn't is clearly evil.

I think you do Bowen Marsh a disservice here. He's unimaginative and unable to change, and many of us think misguided, but he did feel his actions were necessary and his tears indicate the murder is not something he wants to do. Jon has leadership abilities, and that means people will follow.

I think we just like who we like. I hated Tyrion in the first three books for his entitlement complex. Only started to like him in Dance when he met Penny who challenged him on that.

I've just started to re-read the Essos chapters, and Tyrion in his self-loathing is really quite horrible to the Pentoshi slave sent to warm his bed. It will take a lot for me to entirely forgive him for that.

Having Borroq mind control NW brothers and attack is the best thing to advance Jon's warg side. It reveals how far-reaching a skin-changers powers are. So far he has really shown only one solid reach into Ghost, now he's forced to be thrown deep into his other life. As far as initial reaction, the NW will be in shambles after all Jon has done to build it up, then later the reaction against wildlings will be a great story, will be especially crazy if we're to find Tormund was privy to the attack.

I've said elsewhere that I don't believe it is as easy as all that to slip into a human. From the prologue we know that Varamyr was more powerful than Borroq and he couldn't do it. Only the very powerful Bran can manage and that only with Hodor. If Borroq tried to warg any of the NW they'd probably forc him out then stab him. Agree with the rest though.

[Misanthrope]

I have never found Jon to be sympathetic at all. Arya, yes. Even Bran, who can be forgiven his self-pity because he's a.) been crippled and b.) is nine.

Jon is self-pitying. He knew going to the Wall that it meant forswearing all ties of kinship. He chose that. But as soon as he regrets that choice he is ready to break his vow and leave. He whined and sulked over not being named a Ranger, and could not simply humble himself to his assignment, only accepting it when Sam was able to spell it out in terms that appealed to his pride. He shows no respect for the traditions of the Night's Watch nor for the experience of sworn brothers many years his senior. He's spoiled, arrogant, presumptuous and shallow.

What's to like?

Perhaps given that so many of the other characters are either utterly contemptable, or outright bore me to the point of utter indifference. That being said, despite the fact he was one of only 2 characters left (Arya the other) that I enjoyed, I hope he stays dead because a resurrection would only serve to cheapen his arc further than it already has been. If I read any more of this series, a big IF at this point considering how off the rails the story has become, I'll probably just root for Arya and the others to kill everyone else off. If the core of the story is to be nihilism, let it be utterly nihilistic.

My guess, however, is that Cousin Oliver (aka Aegon) wins the throne, which would parallel somewhat the conclusion to the War of the Roses, but as a matter of fiction would be completely uncompelling.

[Raksha the Demon]

Yes! Jaime as the ultimate hero :thumbsup:

But, really, Jon being alive would be too much. Until now, Beric, Catelyn and Gregor were revived, and with Baby Aegon and Mance turning out to be alive, it's starting to get pointless. If Jon survives, we might as well bring Robb, Ned and Oberyn back too.

To think that GRRM criticized Tolkien for bringing Gandalf back... :tantrum:

I saw nothing wrong with Tolkien's bringing Gandalf back; but he was not a mortal man in the first place.

ASoIaF is becoming ZombieFest. Of course, if the Red Viper were to return to completely normal mortal form, I would certainly have no objection, so y'all can call me hypocrite with some justification.

[Misanthrope]

But he won't die. Because sometimes life just sucks, and you need GRRM to remind you.

This sums up precisely how I feel about Jaime. For that matter, what is Cersei still doing alive? She hasn't been worth reading about since book 3.

[Boy and Girl Wadish]

I can't even breathe when I read what happened to Jon.

I definitely hope he won't die. I pray that he won't die and come back to life and be UnJon. I just pray that he survives. For no reason, I have a feeling that Jon will be in somewhat of a coma in the next book, or severely wounded and terribly weak. But not dead, God forbid. GRRM would've wasted too much time and too many Jon Snow POV chapters to build up his character to just kill him off and leave all of the questions that we have in dead air.

[gmavridis]

Jon's death has not been confirmed yet.

He might live or not but in any case I believe that Jon and Mel are the only two characters in the series that understand the true enemy of all living things (this is also possible for the children of the forest and eventually Bran, but we do not have enough data yet). Also the Free Folk know and understand the enemy that is why they run towards the Wall (that includes Mance).

Everybody else in Westeros and in the East have power and self-preservation as a goal.

Dany wants to win the Ironthrone, Stannis also and uses the North as a weapon to find the needed power for his war, Varys, Littlefiger play their own games of domination, the Lannisters and the Tyrells also want the Ironthrone, Griff and Young Griff whoever they are, their goal is also the Ironthrone, the Ironborn seek world dominance e.tc.

If Jon is dead then only Mel and maybe Bran are left to deal with the Others and we do know for certain that Winter Is Coming.