[ADwD Spoilers] Am alone in my feelings about Jon Snow?

[guad]

And by feelings I mean, am I the only one who wishes that Jon Snow actually DOES die? For good.

Honestly! Its because of two things:

(1) The rampant fanboyism of practically ever reader of this series towards Jon Snow.

(2) The lack of misfortune he has to endure. Every other character gets maimed, sold into slavery, or have their plans utterly dashed against the wall.... Except Jon. Everything he does is magical and happens almost flawlessly. (There are a few bad things that happen to him, but nothing compared to other characters) Also he is too perfect it sickens me. He is a good commander, a warg, physically beautiful, an expert swordsman, etc If he is also a god reborn now I think I will throw up

This series is one I really enjoy, the characters seem real and the events aren't all flowers and candies like every other fantasy book ever written. But if Jon Snow stays alive and ends up King of the World like he is headed towards I will be a very sad panda.

No my friend, you are not alone in your feelings. Also in addition it seems that every female character is attracted to Jon, for reasons I don't completally understand.

Said this, I don't dislike Jon, he just annoys me, though he definitely improved in ADWD. And I'm pretty sure he'll come back, too much building up the warging topic, etc. Coming back as the AA though, I don't know. I'm still inclined to trust GRRM to NOT make a cheesy fantasy superhero out of Jon.

[coppertongue]

I've said elsewhere that I don't believe it is as easy as all that to slip into a human. From the prologue we know that Varamyr was more powerful than Borroq and he couldn't do it. Only the very powerful Bran can manage and that only with Hodor. If Borroq tried to warg any of the NW they'd probably forc him out then stab him. Agree with the rest though.

I figured being able to control a monster boar would make him a strong skinchanger. But your post sent coils through my forehead..

Fuckin Brynden. The Night's Watch Brother turned Greenseer. The three eyed crow himself. Lord Mormonts raven. The dreamwalker, Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM "Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist." Who needs R'hollor when you have a greenseer guiding you. Mind Blown.

Brynden controlled the brothers into attacking Jon Snow.

[GRoll]

The major characters, Jon and Dany (and others could be added), are young and naive. Dany stays in Mereen thinking she can change that society. Jon becomes LC and thinks that he can change that society. Neither society wants change. The NW hates wildlings, giants, etc. to the bone. Jon may be right in his decisions, but he is not leading his men. He gets so far out ahead, that he's alone.

He's wounded, but that's all we know. Maybe, hopefully, sometime in the next 10 years we will find out...

I have to say, that I had a sick feeling when he was stabbed and the book ends, like waking up after a bad dream...

[RobSnow]

Jon is an exceptional human being in that chaotic world. Its not fanboy to like him. Chances are if you like and relate to Jon your a particular reader who didnt get everything handed to them emotionally (or materially but mostly emotionally) and actually had to figure some tough shit out on your own.

[samiam3]

Is the stabbing of Jon Snow really an overused "is he dead?". I actually don't think so. The whole incident was perfectly foreshadowed. Mel's insistance he keep Ghost nearby and warning that he should worry more about the enemies he doesn't know made it clear this was coming. Also, the prologue pretty much cinches the idea that he must Warg into Ghost as Mel has seen in fire.

Will he or won't he.... sure a cliffhanger.... but unlike some other surprising false deaths - Arya, Brienne, Bran and Rickon - his probable survival has already been explained.

[JJtheCrow]

I'm really on the fence about this one. Jon is one of my favorite characters and to think i've invested this much time into him then have him assisinated four books into the series really sucks. On the other hand, i really dislike the whole re-animation spin. Let the dead stay dead. That finality is part of what gave this series so much grit and i feel like some of that is gone now. I don't like that Cat came back and I don't like Un-Gregor. I totally believe Mel will bring Jon back and she will be repaid with a sword in her heart thus creating the real Lightbringer.

[TomOSeven]

Jon's attempted assassination doesn't leave the black brothers OR Queen F's men with much hope. Jon's stabbed just in front of many many wildlings AND an angry drunken giant who'd just fisnished disassembling a knight piece by knighted piece. Think about it: Weather or not Jon's really dead, the wildlings he's been alligned with for two books now just agreed to ride out with him to face Bolton and Winterfell in a blind (and soon drunken) rage. They're not going to like this sudden change of plan, and there's no love lost betwixt the bros and thier new charges from beyond the wall. Torrumund will have the wildlings destroy the brothers and hold the castles and even if Ramsey's note is true, what are the chances he rides his host north to help out? The knights and the conspiritors are fucking dead.

[Chirios]

No my friend, you are not alone in your feelings. Also in addition it seems that every female character is attracted to Jon, for reasons I don't completally understand. Said this, I don't dislike Jon, he just annoys me, though he definitely improved in ADWD. And I'm pretty sure he'll come back, too much building up the warging topic, etc. Coming back as the AA though, I don't know. I'm still inclined to trust GRRM to NOT make a cheesy fantasy superhero out of Jon.

Jon has had one female character be attracted to him. Are you talking about Melisandre? 'Cause that's not attraction so much as crazy chick trying to serve her God.

[Nightstar]

I care about Jon, but I can't stand the way he is always carrying on about honor and keeping his vows! I think he was brianwashed by that dolt Ned!

I do hate that; yet still Jon is one of the three characters I really like and would hate to see die.

(The others are Littlefinger and Sandor Clegane).

[longlivestark]

I care about Jon, but I can't stand the way he is always carrying on about honor and keeping his vows! I think he was brianwashed by that dolt Ned!

I do hate that; yet still Jon is one of the three characters I really like and would hate to see die.

(The others are Littlefinger and Sandor Clegane).

What a strange trio of favorite characters..... :wideeyed:

[The Dark Griffin]

I like Jon well enough, and I especially like the whole 'I have to kill the boy to be the man' arc. However, I did notice him behaving in a more formal, courtly manner throughout the book that seemed a little at odds with how he was in the past. I never pictured him as much of a courtier, having to deal with the scruff of Westeros upon the Wall. Maybe this is because he's been interacting so much with Team Stannis, having to play the diplomat. But I feel like the Jon Snow I liked so much disappeared a bit in this book.

[Gnomestress]

I do! He was one of my least favorite POV characters up until this book. It figures, just when Snow gets less boring he gets the Caesar treatment. :P

[The Anti-Targ]

Well Jon's stabbing scene came as no surprise real surprise. Pretty much everyone in the NW who wasn't a close friend already hates Jon, and probably thinks he's in league with the wildlings. So a murder / mutiny conspiracy was ripe for the developing. Hence after reading this chapter I was left a bit flat, no real emotional response because I immediately thought it was a ruse, a bit like the Davos ruse.

I am quite certain that Jon isn't dead at the moment. GRRM would be treating readers with contempt if he had Jon die off-stage, and given the last line of Jon's chapter is Jon feeling cold it's clear there was still some consciousness there. So in Winds of Winter he's either dying of his wounds or being healed when next we see him (Mel PoV I suspect, unless we get another Wall PoV).

So talk of him staying dead is premature, because he's "only" gravely (possibly mortally) wounded at this point. Mel will actually decide whether he lives or dies because as long as there is the least bit of life in him we know the R'hllorites have some pretty awesome powers when it comes to preserving life.

[Guest]

Jon is an exceptional human being in that chaotic world. Its not fanboy to like him. Chances are if you like and relate to Jon your a particular reader who didnt get everything handed to them emotionally (or materially but mostly emotionally) and actually had to figure some tough shit out on your own.

I agree. This is why Larry Williams (Otaku Assemble) really identified with Jon because of his persistence to prove himself as "better" when the rest of the world disapproves of you. I mean, bastards have been shunned throughout our own history. Westeros didn't have a Bible to "enforce" the code like we do but the bastard stigma is still convincingly rigid enough that Jon is a believable by-product of it (I wonder if the bastard rule is part of the Faith or if its just common law?) GRRM wrote Jon in a way that gave us insight into the human consequence the child bearing the burden of the parent's (usually father's) past transgressions. I think we forget that when we read the story from our own "enlightened" perspective, since we expect Jon to "get over it," and "quit whining." But in Books 1-3 he's developing his "armor" (as Tyrion called it). Thus far he's the only character that I know of in the story who sees a lot of the categories we put on people as unjustified and irrational. Maybe because he was castle-raised, he has an insider/outsider perspective that allows him to move between the nobility/Night's watch rejects/wildlings in ways that I really enjoy reading about. That's three identities right there that make him complicated enough for ASOIAF.

I like Jon for functional reasons as well. He's the only character who remotely speaks through Ned's voice, the last surviving "Stark" figurehead, and the only one left who can serve as a rallying point for our future Stark reunion (fingers crossed).

It seems like some people want Jon to be a villian in order for him to hold their attention at all. I don't understand that so if you are of that view, please explain what you mean.

[Amae Koromo]

He is not that perfect.

There is no evidence that he is really handsome and he made some political errors in the last book (along with deserting), even if the plan for wildlings was a good one.

Also, he didn't really have it that easy.

Let's see the people that he loved:

Ned: Dead

Robb: Dead

Sansa: Missing, married a grotesque dwarf (and a freaking Lannister at that)

Bran: Crippled, Jon believes him to be dead

Arya: Missing, he believes her to have married Ramsay Snow

Rickon: Jon believes him to be dead

Benjen: Jon believes him to be dead

Mormont: Dead (killed by NW people)

Ygritte: Dead (killed by NW people)

The only people he cares about that are not dead or married to some monster are Samwell, Dolorous Edd and some of his friends from the NW.

[Envie]

Has anyone wondered if "Cold Hands" type undeath is what might happen to Jon? Sadly we still don't even know who Cold Hands is, right?

There seems to be a few different types of 're-animated dead' going on... the wights, who are just mindless zombies who only remember where they came from and return that way to kill whatever's on the way... then there's the Beric/Catlyn type undeath which seems pretty gruesome but still with a thinking mind, though Catlyn seems much less coherent (more insane and vengeance driven) than Beric did. Lastly there's Cold Hands who also seems to be an undead of some type - no breath, no eating/drinking/sleeping, etc. Robert the Strong probably falls into one of these three categories...

If Jon ends up joining the undead army, I will be pretty disappointed - but then again, it is the ice side of the song...

[It is not known]

It seems like some people want Jon to be a villian in order for him to hold their attention at all. I don't understand that so if you are of that view, please explain what you mean.

Agreed, reading through this thread I got that impression also. Yes, one of the big appeals of GRRM is that he doesn't always write pretty characters. Tyrion is hands down my favorite character throughout the books and not only is he described as ugly but he keeps losing body parts, has some serious daddy issues, and lots of flaws. That being said there are "pretty" semi-well adjusted people in reality too and I don't fault GRRM for including a character like that. Jon has had far from a perfect life and yet he still keeps on trying, I hardly find that that makes him boring. And a comparison to Twilight, really? A kid that's a bastard, forced to be a turncloak, has seen almost his entire family die, has had to kill a friend and a lover of his (indirectly), and will never be able to have a family of his own... is like Twilight?

I'd like to see something good happen to Jon for at least once in his life (and getting elected as LC was certainly not something he wanted and, obviously, not something good for his health in light of recent events), so let the poor boy come back from the dead!

[The Red Keep]

Jon has had one female character be attracted to him. Are you talking about Melisandre? 'Cause that's not attraction so much as crazy chick trying to serve her God.

Agreed. So far the count for swooning ladies at Jon's feet: 1. That's it. And I think that at least some of the confusion about Jon's looks comes from the HBO series, where you have a good-looking actor portraying him. I don't think Jon is ever described in the books as being overwhemingly handsome.

I do agree with other posters that Jon is closest to the archetypal hero of this particular story, but that said, he is far from on par with other traditional fantasy heroes. He is significantly flawed, at times arrogant, at times naive, suffers many hardships, and is never rewarded for maintaining his honour (much like Ned). I disagree with the statement that everyone is "fanboying" about Jon - he is simply a prominent player in the series, and as is such, incites a large following. Please don't compare it to Twilight - that is simply a whole other can of worms.

[Greg B]

I actually like Jon. He might be the most traditional fantasy hero in the series, but by those standards, he's very well drawn. He's extremely capable, of course, but he also makes life more difficult for himself in a believable and sympathetic way by always trying to do the right thing.

At least, that was how I saw him up until his decision to hand the Hardhome ranging to Tormund and ride to Winterfell to make Ramsay "answer for his words." I'm still hopeful the two-hour planning session with Giantsbane will reveal what he was thinking...

[Eponine]

Please be dead. Oh please, please, please be dead, Jon. At least the true death.

I haven't liked Jon all through the series, for many of the reasons that others have mentioned. Yet, he continues to interest me not so much as a character but as a measure of how great the series could be... or how cliched. There are still a lot of ways that his story could go that would be satisfying to me. The problem is that the worst cliche in the history of fantasy writing is not only still wide open to him, but many clues seem to suggest it - the hidden prince becomes the fulfiller of prophecy and the savior of the world and the dragon rider. And making him not only that, but a resurrected hero, why not name him Jesus Snow? :ack: I mean, if all that stuff happens to him, how could it possibly get more corny? (And yeah, I'm one of the readers who isn't a big fantasy fan).

However, I have enough faith in George subverting the obvious cliche to have a lot of hope that that won't be the result. And other clues point away from that too - still wide open and that's a good thing. The Varamyr prologue makes it seem axiomatic that Jon would warg with Ghost, permanently if nothing happened to bring him back. I think it would be an interesting POV and end to his story to see him struggling to maintain his own identity and thoughts within Ghost, having to fight off the urge to merge with Ghost and be a wolf, until he's influenced things at the wall as much as possible and ending with acceptance of his fate as part of Ghost. If he were to go beyond the wall permanently for some reason, that would also be interesting to me. And even if Melisandre resurrects him, as much as I hope it doesn't happen, if it's like Beric's resurrection, presumably a lot of his old desires and memories will be lost to him. Beric says that he knew he used to have a castle and be engaged to a woman, but can't remember what the woman looks like or where his castle is. What will really piss me off is if his "death" frees him of his vows, while Melisandre's superior power let's him be just like he was before (only bigger and better!)

I don't think Jon's had an easy life, but his story hasn't affected me like some of the other characters.

• Ok, he goes to the wall, we wouldn't have a story if that hadn't happen.
  
• He's a bully and looks down on his brothers, but one lecture from Donal Noye and in no time at all, they all become his best friends except the cartoon villain - no consequence for the bullying
  
• He's ready to desert, but his friends bring him back - no consequence for his attempted desertion
  
• He gets into a fight after Mormont warned him to hold his temper - putting him in exactly the right place at the right time to save the day - and his action of burning the wight isn't one of particular intelligence, it's mostly coincidence that that's what he had to fight with at the time - gets a Valarion sword
  
• Because he's a sexist, Ygritte vouches for him, relieving him of a good deal of Mance's suspicion toward him - but this is also largely coincidental since she could have been the first person he killed without realizing she was a woman
  
• Ygritte dies, and while we can imagine that's not easy for him, she dies at just the right time that he doesn't have to choose between her and the wall
  
• Again not through any apparent merit of his own, but because his friend is clever, he becomes Lord Commander
  
• And then all his annoying one dimensional sidekicks get sent away when they aren't useful to the story anymore
  

None of this is horrible stuff, but it makes me feel like the elements of Jon's story are just that - elements of a story, rather than how I really get involved in the interactions between some of the other characters whose consequences seem more natural and logical. I did like the Jon story a lot more in ADWD - it was one of the highlights that he had to deal with characters that had already been fleshed out in other contexts instead of just having his dick sucked by his cronies. His death was exactly the kind of natural consequence that I wanted to see - it wouldn't have had to be a death necessarily, but it did grow naturally out of the story. He had to make hard decisions, these decisions displeased a lot of people, the other brothers couldn't bring themselves to accept the policy with the Wildlings after having spent years and lives fighting them, and it led to a natural conclusion - and it has nothing to do with whether his decisions were "right" or not. If he's resurrected though, it's just going to be one more thing where the consequence went away for special hero Jon. There has to be a real consequence for the decisions he made and the enemies he made, or there was no point to all that very good buildup after all, he could have just slipped from the wall and been in the same place as now if he just gets up and walks away from it, virtually unscathed.

(Incidentally, I feel much the same about Dany and the Mereen arc - it's going to be cheap as hell if her one single revelation after a book full of hard decisions going badly suddenly turns her into a competent ruler).